Debate discussion

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/04/22...

Rules of Engagement. Some people here really should read these. :)

((and if anyone can find a mirror list, please post it))

Nice.

X)

There's a lot of don't talk to us about the Bible because we don't have an equal grasp idea, but when you are debating the Bible and creationism some people assume that you have the at least a small understanding of the Christian side to be able to argue against it.

We do. People become atheists, often, from intense Bible study. Preacher to atheist type stories.

But if we're debating a neutral topic, it can't be used as proof, like how if we were debating the existence of magic, saying magic is real in Harry Potter wouldn't be proof.

Did you become an atheist because you did intense Bible study?

Partially. The more I learned about religion, the less sense I saw in it. I actually was sent for camp at an evangelical church for a number of years.

The main part was, a conflict. I was the type of kid who lived in museums, especially natural history ones. The dinosaurs were my favorite. I asked at camp, why are the dinosaurs, something so huge and inescapable, never mentioned? They had no answer. My own answer was, because the people who created monotheism lived in a dark age where there was no scientific inquiry and had no idea how old the Earth really was. A God would know about the dinosaurs. A human back then would not.

You say you learned about religion as if they all are the same, which tempts me to restate my question in a different way. Can you confidently say you have read the bible esp the gospel enough to make your decision. (how much of the bible have you really read?) The reason I ask is because back in the evolutionist vs. creationism debate there were a few times when you would talk about things in the bible that where entirely untrue as if you had a weak understanding about what actually happened.

When you say people who created monotheism, are you referring to Christianity or all religions that have one God?

I believe dinos were created to impress Adam thus if they were not included in the bible then they were not important.

Also if you don't mind me asking, do you have any beliefs of an after life?

"The reason I ask is because back in the evolutionist vs. creationism debate there were a few times when you would talk about things in the bible that where entirely untrue as if you had a weak understanding about what actually happened. "

Example plez.

Not that I'm avoiding your question, but if want me to read the entire bible before I pick, then have you read every bible in the world before you were handed your religion? And, books on humanism and atheism?

And religion is all the same, because it is all supernatural. You expect the laws of physics to be bent according to something's will.

"
I believe dinos were created to impress Adam thus if they were not included in the bible then they were not important. "

That was full of fail.

The afterlife will be as prelife was. Where were you in prelife? Nowhere. Where will we all be after life? Nowhere.

“I like Eve (rebel, and she wanted knowledge, no matter the cost), but Lilith I liked more. She was banished and became a demon or something because she refused to submit to Adam and "be on the bottom" so to speak.”

Eve was tempted by the serpent.

There are legends that Adam had a wife before Eve who was named Lilith, but this is not found in the Bible. The legends vary significantly, but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him. According to the legends, Lilith was an evil, wicked woman who committed adultery with Satan and produced a race of evil creatures. None of this is true. There is no biblical basis whatsoever for these concepts. There is no one in the Bible named Lilith.

The passage most often pointed to as evidence for Lilith is Isaiah 34:14, which in the NRSV reads, "There too Lilith shall repose." This is a poor translation. Every other major translation of the Bible reads something to the effect of "night creature" or "screech owl." Even if "demon monster named Lilith" was the proper translation of the Hebrew word, Adam is nowhere even hinted at in this passage or its context. Whatever the Lilith was, it is not given any connection whatsoever to Adam or Creation.

"And religion is all the same, because it is all supernatural. You expect the laws of physics to be bent according to something's will."

You cannot bind all religions together merely because they are supernatural. Since my God is not bound by any limit seeing as he created the earth and everything in it of course I expect the laws of physics to bent! He created them. I expect that the mountain will bow down to him if he wishes.

"That was full of fail."

I don't understand this comment.

Do you see how utterly helpless you would be if you had no afterlife? Every life is a pointless waste of time. I'd expect those that believe this to be filling their every moments with something important.

I'm not saying you have to read all of it.
(I don't have to read every translation either)

"but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him"

Cause Adam was being a sexist pig. :)

"Do you see how utterly helpless you would be if you had no afterlife? Every life is a pointless waste of time. I'd expect those that believe this to be filling their every moments with something important."

Us, not really. I have total control of my own life, and the fact that when it's over, it's over, and I don't have to worry about that. So I'm free to live however I want.

Lauren wrote: ""but they all essentially agree that Lilith left Adam because she did not want to submit to him"

Cause Adam was being a sexist pig. :)

No they don't. Lilith is a legend she is not in the Bible.

She's in the Torah. Which is basically the OT.

Lilith appears as a night demon in Jewish lore and as a screech owl in the King James version of the Bible.

The Book of Isaiah 34:14, describing the desolation of Edom, is the only occurrence of Lilith in the Hebrew Bible:

Hebrew (ISO 259): pagšu ṣiyyim et-ʾiyyim w-saʿir ʿal-rēʿhu yiqra ʾakšam hirgiʿah lilit u-maṣʾah lah manoḫ
morpho-syntactic analysis: "yelpers meet-[perfect:] howlers; hairy-ones cry-[imperfect:] to fellow. liyliyth reposes-[perfect:], acquires-[perfect:] resting-place."
KJV: "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

This passage refers to God's day of vengeance, when the land will be transformed into desolate wilderness. Thus, Lilith was known in what, according to biblical chronology, would be the ancient Israel of the 8th century BCE. The fact that she found a place of rest in the desert seems to allude to the Sumerian Gilgamesh incident: after Lilith fled into the desert, she apparently found repose there.[26:]

Schrader (Jahrbuch für Protestantische Theologie, 1. 128) and Levy (ZDMG 9. 470, 484) suggest that Lilith was a goddess of the night, known also by the Jewish exiles in Babylon. Evidence for Lilith being a goddess rather than a demon is lacking. Deutero-Isaiah dates to the 6th century BCE, and the presence of Jews in Babylon would coincide with the attested references to the Līlītu in Babylonian demonology.

"She's in the Torah. Which is basically the OT."
I guess I haven't stated I'm a Christian not a Jew. I'm not supporting anything of the religion/ beliefs of Jews. Honestly I couldn’t care less. What is the ot?

"...and as a screech owl in the King James version of the Bible."

How do you know this is not referring to any other thing except for lilith? The word lilith appears one time in the entire bible. The word lilith could be interpreted in a thousand different ways. Why was lilith not mentioned in Geneses? If she was Adams wife at one point then she would have been mentioned in Genesis.

Honestly, did you know this when we were debating earlier? Why didn't you post this?

"Why was lilith not mentioned in Geneses? If she was Adams wife at one point then she would have been mentioned in Genesis. "

Do you know HOW many times the Bible has been translated, edited, added to? Half of it could be gone.

No, I recently found it. A little too late... :)

"Do you know HOW many times the Bible has been translated, edited, added to? Half of it could be gone."

Look at the Dead Sea scrolls. Scholars were baffled at how similar modern translations are to it.

"Do you know HOW many times the Bible has been translated, edited, added to? Half of it could be gone."

As I've said, I'm almost positive that half of it (if not more) is missing. The scholars who put it together decided that only certain books were needed (which I think is ridiculous) so they decided to just put what we have into the Bible. As far as translation, yes, obviously it's been translated many times. Obviously there are contradictions, but that's from the translations, the changes that have been added by the translators, and then there are books (even mentioned in the Bible) that aren't in the Bible that might fix the problem of some contradiction.

And Lilith didn't exist. God created Eve, the first woman to walk the earth.

GENISIS 2:

"22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

The first man and woman created. Saying that Lilith existed is an assumption that has no basis. That was the first time God created a woman, that was the first time God created Adam, which is why saying that Adam had a wife before Eve is ridiculous. How can a human turn into a demon?

There is a theory that, based on books that allegeldgy were not important enough to be in the Bible, Eve was the third wife of Adam.

"As I've said, I'm almost positive that half of it (if not more) is missing. The scholars who put it together decided that only certain books were needed (which I think is ridiculous) so they decided to just put what we have into the Bible."

Like that bit the DaVinci code, when they find out Mary Magdalen wrote one.

"How can a human turn into a demon? "

Angels, far more holy, have been turned to demons quite easily. Iblis, Lucifer...

What books that haven't been put into the Bible? Have any been found?

I don't remember the DaVinci Code, honestly xD And we don't know if Mary Magdalen wrote one.

And angels are angels, not humans who have a mortal body. If you have a mortal body you can't be turned into a demon. If you're human you were one of the 2/3 of the angels who wanted to come to earth. That's why you can't be turned into a demon. Only the 1/3 are demons, I do believe.

Surely, if an all-powerful God is floating around, is anything possible?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

"Why was the Gospel of Judas not included in the Bible? There are other gospels that have been found over the last century that were not included -- among them, the Gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene."

"Why was the Gospel of Judas not included in the Bible? There are other gospels that have been found over the last century that were not included -- among them, the Gospels of Thomas and Mary Magdalene."

This question was raised to my pastor and he said that the books of the Bible were supported from the beginning whereas those that people tried to add were thrust forward and were rejected.

Jayda, can you list the contradictions of the Bible?

As I've said many times, a bunch of Scholars came together in early A.D. and put only some books into the Bible. The Bible of Judas is probably one of the books that didn't make it because those Scholars decided to be obnoxious and not put in all of the books x.x

"The Bible of Judas is probably one of the books that didn't make it because those Scholars decided to be obnoxious and not put in all of the books x.x"

How can you believe the books are the Word of God when it's so obvious from that point they were just thrown together based on the whims of some people?

The words written were the Words of God. Then man screwed it up by editing it and taking some books out.

But God knew that would happen.

So, either he wanted his word to be distorted and destroyed by humans, or there is no God to stop them. Because, as an omnipotent being, he can do whatever he wants.

For example.

http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/12/...

God knew it would happen but He does not control us. If He broke the rule of free-will by forcing us to do or not do something than He would cease to be God. How many times do I have to say that? x.x

Because, if that is true, it makes him a really mean, sadistic, malevolent person, who doesn't deserve worship.

:)

How so? We wanted free-will, the only way to prove our faith in Him is to have free-will in order to choose to gollow him or not. Would you be able to function properly if you were forced to believe in God until you died, to use every living breath in worship and service for the Lord? That was Lucifer's plan. I wouldn't want to be forced.

Did we? Who decided that?

"I don't remember the DaVinci Code, honestly xD And we don't know if Mary Magdalen wrote one."

*le gasp* YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE DA VINCI CODE?!?!?! that book is soooo awesome!!! And the #1 selling adult fictin novel of ALL time :D

Anyways, mary magdalen and other people as well did write gospels but the church when first established got rid of anything that could threaten their power, like the Da Vinci Code said.

Now it is a fictional story but a lot of stuff in there is factual such as...the gospels that were taken out of the bible :D

Oh, and in another thread I called God a Masichist :P

*Masochist :)

Anyway, I'll have to reread it. I've seen the movie though - a brilliant film. I still don't remember the book, though xD

I hate when people say it's bad, because I know it's because they were offended. And it was supposed to be fictional.

I know, and it made a lot of good points, it's only saying how much Christianity is like Pagan religions, which, no offense, is true.

Lauren wrote: "I hate when people say it's bad, because I know it's because they were offended. And it was supposed to be fictional. "

Not always. Some people just generally didn't like it.

I was referring to the Pope not allowing Angels and Demons to be shown in Italy, or some such nonsense.

ha ha. It's a STORY...and a very entertaining one also. It didn't even prove Christianity wrong, it just pointed out some of its flaws.

The Pope did not want them to have the option to chose for themselves.

And personally? This Pope is one of the biggest idiots in Pope history.

haha. And he's a perv...and a ped. That should tell you a little more about his idiocy.

He thinks condoms cause AIDS.

gah...it burns!

Well of COURSE condom while having sex with a person who has aids, and then use the SAME condom to have sex with another person, you will be spreading aids!

Thats what the pope meant to say people!! what he was really trying to get across was "Dont try and save money by reusing condoms, its gross."

*shakes head*

The Pope isn't that smart to do that. He literally thinks that condoms spread AIDS. And prayer can stop i, moreover.

I think he should have elaborated more though, saying: "Condoms spread aids when you re use them, but BLESSED condoms can be recycled over and over again. Simply rinse with holy water!"

They were giving out extra lubricated condoms in the FLOWER SHOP today! There were two whole bowls full of them!

ha ha ha...ow it burns.

""Condoms spread aids when you re use them, but BLESSED condoms can be recycled over and over again. Simply rinse with holy water!""

No. Not what he meant at all. He literally thinks condoms are the direct cause of AIDS, simply because the Church is too blind to accept birth control.

OR he thinks that condoms that are not blessed by the lord spread aids, but his big brain got in the way of saying it!