Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion

Our discussion of Kindred by Octavia E. Butler will begin here on May 1. Qiana will lead our discussion. For those of you who haven't read Octavia Butler before, you're in for a real treat. Here's a little information about her:

Octavia Estelle Butler (June 22, 1947 – February 24, 2006) was an American science fiction writer, one of very few African-American women in the field. She won both Hugo and Nebula awards. In 1995, she became the first science fiction writer to receive the MacArthur Foundation "Genius" Grant. "Kindred" became the most popular of all her books, with 250,000 copies currently in print. Beacon Press issued a twenty-fifth-anniversary edition of the classic novel.In 1984, she won a Hugo Award for her short story "Speech Sounds." In 1985, she won the Hugo for her novella Bloodchild, which also won the 1984 Nebula Award.

In her own words;
"I'm not writing for some noble purpose, I just like telling a good story. If what I write about helps others understand this world we live in, so much the better for all of us. Every story I write adds to me a little, changes me a little, forces me to reexamine an attitude or belief, causes me to research and learn, helps me to understand people and grow ... Every story I create, creates me. I write to create myself".

There are lots of good interviews around - here's one:
http://www.scifidimensions.com/Jun04/...

Greetings, folks: I'm delighted to help us get started with our conversation of Octavia Butler's classic, Kindred. I've discussed this novel often in my classes and students always respond well to Butler's work. Myself, I have both praise and some criticism of the book and I'm looking forward to sharing both in the weeks to come.

Here are three issues to consider:

GENRE: One of the things that distinguishes Kindred as a neo-slave narrative is its use of fantasy and speculative elements in the story. How did Butler's use of time travel strike you? Did it feel out of place? Or strangely appropriate, given Butler's message? How did Butler's representation of Dana's journeys back in time affect the realism of the story?

MAIN CHARACTERS: I once heard Butler give a talk in which she admitted that she originally created Dana's character as male, but couldn't find a way to write the story without him getting killed prematurely. What did you think of Dana's character? Was she likeable? Convincing? Sympathetic? And what about her ancestor Rufus? I would argue that he was an even more complex figure. What is your opinion of Rufus, and did your view change during the course of the novel?

REPRESENTING SLAVERY: One of the fascinating things about Kindred is the way Butler highlights the mundane and everyday experiences of slave life, as well as the dramatic moments. The scene that is the most memorable to me is when Dana actually sees someone being whipped for the first time and realizes that it is nothing like a Hollywood re-enactment. I also gained a new appreciation for aspirin after reading Kindred! For me, it is these small moments that make the novel's representation of history valuable. How would you rate Butler's approach to slavery? Did you learn anything new?

These questions only scratch the surface, so feel free to raise others and let us know what you think!

Kindred was a re-read for me; I read it back in the '80s when Octavia Butler's work was first published. Actually, my first exposure to her work was Wild Seed - a book that completely blew me away. I read every book that she published. At the time, black women and speculative fiction were a very rare combination. Even today Kindred holds up beautifully.

Especially considering when this book was written, I think that she did a magnificent job of portraying the complexities of slavery. Each enslaved person was presented as an individual with his or her own ways of living through such terrible times. There is no sense of "The Slaves" as a monolithic group. I don't think that I would have been able to adapt as well as Dana did, but that is one of the interesting aspects of this story - the way that the institution pulls you in and forces you to adapt. I liked Dana - she was trapped in a situation with no good outcomes and made the best decisions she could.

Rufus was another matter. He was complex, self-centered, even cruel, but it was hard not to keep hoping that he would change. He was clearly capable of love, but was completely twisted by his role as "master". Dana's dual relationship with him as an enslaved companion and as a descendant was a very tricky one to navigate. She could not easily accept the truth about his character, even when everyone told her that he was far worse than he initially appeared.

To me, the speculative time travel was what made this a great story. I know that I'm repeating myself, but at the time this book was written, who would have imagined such a story? No one but the great Octavia Butler! I really miss her.

I just finished reading Kindred and I didn't find the use of time travel all that odd. There was another book that I read that took the main character back in time to slavery- In this book the character travel to two times in history: to slavery and to the great depression 1929. I wish I could remeber the name of the book, but the main character didn't start travel back in time until she inherited this trunk from her ancestors.

Hi Arnetra! Was the book you read, A Wish after Midnight? Either way, I'd love to hear more about how the two books compare.

It was a bit ironic that I read Kindred in one sitting on a long plane ride from Dakar, Senegal. There is the well preserved fort/slave market/holding pens on Goree island, the last stop for many West Africans before they embarked on their middle passage to the New World. Having just a few days before "time traveled" (imagined) life for countless ancestors by touching shackles and cell walls and peered through the door of no return. Butler transports us through her unique writing skill to a time and enviroment not easily conjured. She shows us how slavery destroys both the enslaved and the master. She makes us not be so cocksure of what we would do in those times and circumstances and how easily one could become consumed as Dana clearly was. Why didn't Dana act more 21st century and employ lethal force in dealing with Rufus sooner? Why did Rufus vaccillitate between humanity and monstrousity? Our sensibilities are shaped by the times we live in and while we may never be able to grasp the macro effects of slavery, the depopulation of West Africa, the over stocking of slave ships to compensate for the approximately one third of the people who would not make it to American shores, and the complete loss of family and culture. We can imagine the micro effects of one families history that O. Butler uses as a template for the past and present sins of that peculiar institution.

Kindred is one of those stories you're still thinking about, days after you've finished the book. I'm not even a sci-fi/fantasy fan, but something about Ms. Butler's work has always resonated with me.

My feelings about Rufus? I figured at some point, I wouldn't like him. Sure enough, he proved manipulative, selfish, the classic victim/product of his upbringing and times. His unyielding sense of entitlement is, perhaps, what irked me most about him. He felt entitled, not just to the labor and bodies of others, but their very lives, Dana's included.

But Dana is who really got to me. I still have mixed feelings about some of her actions. Her culpability in Rufus's rape and ruin of Alice is . . . haunting, for lack of a better word. Did Dana have another choice? Maybe I missed it in my reading, but I never got the sense she even contemplated the alternatives. I mean, had Hagar not been born, then what? Would Dana have simply disappeared, cease to exist? Would she have been trapped in slavery and/or unable to return to her real life? How could she be so sure?

Certainly, I know there are women, with seemingly less at stake, who wouldn't think twice about turning another woman out in such a fashion. To be honest, I know this sort of thing continues to take place all over the world, but the very idea of offering up another woman's body in hopes of sparing oneself is, like I said, haunting, if not horrific.

Dana's repeated attempts to save and protect the life of an increasingly abusive slave owner, while simultaneously being passively complicit in the degradation and abuse of a woman who looked enough like her to be her twin, is very symbolically charged as well. Bu then, when Rufus decides to put the moves on Dana, she opts to kill him, rather than submit. What does that say about her and what she values? Particularly in light of the role she played in coercing Alice into submission?

Truly, I marvel at Butlter's ability and willingness to go there, when it comes to addressing such heart-wrenching and disturbing issues.

On a lighter note, I did wonder why, apparently, it never occured to Dana to bring Rufus back into her world. After all, she was able to transport Kevin back and forth.

All possible decisions seem filled with bad outcomes. Suppose Dana had brought Rufus back with her. Then there would have been a massive slave auction, undoubtedly splitting up more families and, since they would probably be sold south, sending the enslaved people to even worse conditions. Dana did, initially, refuse to speak to Alice about Rufus, but Rufus told Dana that Alice would be beaten into submission if she refused.

Dana - (P.164) He had all the low cunning of his class. No, I couldn't refuse to help the girl - help her avoid at least some pain. But she wouldn't think much of me for helping her this way. I didn't think much of myself.

And I think that NOT knowing exactly what would happen if Hagar were not born was exactly what stopped her time and time again. I can't imagine taking an action that could send all of my forebearers into oblivion!

Welcome back, Bill! We missed you!

Thanks Mina! They say the only sure things in life are death and taxes but if you're Af Am its also that the specter of slavery will follow you wherever you go. There wasn't one day in Africa that the subject of slavery and it ramifications did not come up. But I did enjoy them.

I agree with Lori and became increasingly disheartened as the novel progressed with Dana's protection and aid to Rufus. At least after Hagar was born there should have been no more coddeling. She seemed to repeatedly ask Rufus if her saving his life meant anything and how many times did he have to answer her with more violence before she understood the answer was no?

Did anyone have any feelings about Dana's interracial marriage and whether it had an impact on her relationship with Rufus?

I think that we mentioned earlier that Kindred is going to be rereleased as a graphic novel. Do you think that this book will work well in that format? Are there any others of Octavia Butler's books that would work better?

Hi all! I just found out the other day that an artist for the graphic novel adaptation of Kindred has be found. So it looks like this comic is really going to happen! Very exciting. I'm not as well read in Butler's hard sci-fi but I have read her Parable series and I think that would translate well to the graphic novel format.

Just a few thoughts on some of the comments: I was initially very irritated by the Dana's interracial marriage. I would have liked to see Butler include a black male character with as much depth as Kevin or Rufus. But again, if one of the themes of Kindred is the connection and interdependency of humanity, then I can understand why Butler decided to feature a character like Kevin so prominently. It is fascinating to see the effects of slavery's hierarchy of power even on a liberal-minded white male who abhors the very idea of enslavement.

Bill, your trip sounds amazing. I'm determined to get to Africa one day, myself. Do you have a blog or travel journal online? Or any pictures?

My appreciation for Kindred is (hopefully) already well known, but there's something about Butler's writing style that has always bothered me. To be blunt, I'm starting to think that Butler is a superb storyteller, but a poor writer. The premise of Kindred is fascinating and the story itself takes many twists and turns, raises provocative moral questions, and has a great ending.

But I often find the characters to be strangely flat, and one-dimensional; the dialogue, in particular, feels wooden and stilted. There are times when her characters don't seem to speak "naturally" and sound more like actors in a stage play. Plus her black female characters seem to all be different variations of the same woman. Am I the only one who feels this way?

I should note that in addition to Kindred, I've read Butler's Parable of the Sower and the sequel, Parable of the Talents, as well as her last book Fledgling. Some of her more well-known novels, like Wild Seed, I haven't gotten to yet.

Read Wild Seed, Qiana! It just knocked my socks off when I read it. The impact would probably be less now, with Nalo Hopkinson, Tananarive Due, and others on the writing scene, but it's an incredible book!

Glad to see you back. I hope you have a good, peaceful summer coming!

Oh, and I think I've read everything that Octavia Butler ever wrote, including her spectacular, prize-winning short stories. Don't miss those!

Thanks, Mina! So does this mean that you disagree with my assessment of Butler's writing skills? Does Wild Seed move away from the formulaic style of the other works?

It's hard for me to make a dispassionate judgment about her books in terms of being formulaic. I read them when they were first published, and she essentially CREATED the formula! There were no Black women protagonists (or any other women of color, for that matter) in speculative fiction, so I can't say that her strong, intelligent, resourceful characters bothered me one bit! Like most speculative fiction, her books are plot-driven, but I thoroughly enjoyed every one of her books, and I really, really miss her. I met her at a book reading once, and she had such presence!

Have you tried any of her short stories? Some of them are just wonderful and I think that you would be impressed! They won many, many awards.

Okay, okay, so I'm going to rethink my criticism until I read more of her work. You've made me consider the context surrounding the publication of her books and I do think that there is value in the plot-driven narrative. And I like I said before, she's a top-notch storyteller...

I think Qiana's point is an interesting one. I've only read one other Butler book and that was years ago. Perhaps I'll take on another one of her titles over the summer.

I've been wondering what might have happened had Alice attempted to kill Rufus, rather than herself. Which ancestor would Dana have opted to save? And really, why didn't Alice attempt to kill Rufus . . . particularly after she'd decided all was lost?

I often wonder how my ancestors managed to control themselves and not, at least to my knowledge, kill the people who enslaved them. We are a pretty stubborn and slightly arrogant bunch. (OK, there is the old Jenkins family story about the demise of an overseer, but that's another story.) But the death of the slaveholder has such far reaching consequences for all of the other enslaved people. Look at what happened after Rufus' death.

...And in later papers, notice of the sale of the slaves from Mr. Rufus Weylin's estate. The slaves were listed by their first names with their approximate ages and their skills given. All three of Nigel's sons were listed, but Nigel and Carrie were not. Sarah was listed, but Joe and Carrie were not. Everyone else was listed. Everyone. (p.262-263)

I'm sure that Alice would have loved to see Rufus in a pool of his own blood. But the impact of his death on everyone else she loved would have been horrendous. I can't even read about sales like that without a pain in the pit of my stomach. Undoubtedly she wanted to die - she had already lost everything - her dignity, her hope of freedom, her husband, the respect of her fellow slaves, and finally, she believed, her children. But I don't think that she wanted to harm any of the other slaves in the process.

I think that this same instinct made Nigel set the fire, but save Margaret Weylin, in hopes of preserving the community, a hope that sadly went unrealized. In this book, in A Mercy, in our June book, Someone Knows My Name / The Book of Negroes, there are no good choices in slavery.

I wonder how much Butler's self avowed feminism informed the story? Perhaps she was also taking on that other peculiar institution and sibling to slavery, marriage? Only in the most advanced spheres at that time was there anything approaching equality in a marriage and to this day in many culture it is perfectly natural for a man to "buy" a wife through a dowry or lobola? Although Kevin was brave at times he could also be quite feckless and willing to easily assume the "master" role. Butler also wrote this during the late seventies during feminism's heyday...I think she that if she had created a black male character instead of Dana she would have been unable to point out that marriage is an institution made by males for the continued advantage of males. And creating the couple as an interracial one is just that much more dynamic.

Thanks, Qiana, for the greeting..I don't have any pictures on line yet but after some captioning I will..(almost 500 photos!) I'll let you know.

Excellent point about marriage, Bill! Kevin was far too comfortable in the "master" role. Although we don't know the details of his time in the past apart from Dana, he certainly was an observer in many horrible situations. A Black man moving from the 20th century to the past wouldn't have survived - if he had been as possessive of "his" woman as Kevin was, he'd have been a dead man. Kevin was pretty comfortable claiming Dana as his property, his possession, and even though it may have been necessary for their survival, it still made me very uncomfortable. And isn't that what good books do?

(Can't wait for those pictures, Bill!)

I definitely think you are on to something, Bill, about Butler's concerns with that "other peculiar institution" of marriage. Particularly considering the limited choices available not just to black women, but to a white woman like Margaret Weylin who was constantly bitter and jealous, trying to hold on to what little power she had.

And the discomfort Dana began to feel about Kevin's attitude as master is also conflated with his role as husband in some very telling ways. (This was sort of a no-win situation for him all around.) The relationship between Nigel and Carrie was an admirable one, though.

I don't know if anyone is still watching this thread, but I am currently reading Kindred for the first time and thought I would look at the comments here.

It looks like this early (2009) discussion did not divide the book up into 3 sections to discuss during the month, so I'd better not read too much until I finish - will come back later!

We'll be looking forward to your comments, Michael!

Well, I have finished this fantastic novel, and looking over everyone's posts, it seems you have covered the main points I had in my reading. The ethical dilemmas in this book are exasperating, and brilliantly convoluted, and nothing has a simple answer, or even any answer.

Two thoughts I'd like to share:

1) The thing that was most amazing to me about how Ms. Butler told the story was how thoroughly I was trapped in that past. The feeling that I was a "modern" peer to Dana, who has no control over what is happening to her and is just pulled back into that situation - seemed to have an implied parallel to my experience as a reader. It compelled me to identify with her situation. And then none of her choices seemed enough, and none of the alternatives seemed acceptable, and I ended up feeling - wow, just so helpless and livid and deadened - it just seemed like it must have been Ms. Butler's intent, or at least a side effect of her portraying so well the sheer hopelessness of being enslaved.

2) The more I think about the time travel part, the more impressed I am with Ms. Butler's use of it in this story. Initially, my thoughts were along the lines of, "why does everyone call this science fiction, the time travel is such a small piece and is never explained, it could easily be fantasy, or even just historical fiction." But I've come to realize that time travel was actually a major character - it established the disconnect between the modern and past sensibilities, it created a frustrating genealogy to consider, both the knowledge of being a part of Rufus' legacy and in considering the possible repercussions to her family line, and it created, through biological imperative and physical appearance, this unique connection and paradox between Alice and Dana that was, to borrow Lori's word, "haunting". If that wasn't enough, because the time travel seemed to follow at least some rules, it also set up the notion that this phenomenon was something that could be figured out, that by applying logic and problem-solving, Dana could attempt a solution. This made the eventual betrayal - our realization that no, actually, there is nothing you can do, logic will fail you, it will always fail you in the realm of slavery - so much more bitter and devastating.

Just an amazing book.

I completely agree, Michael.

Thanks for commenting, Wilhelmina! Also, I forgot to post my memorable quotes, although I didn't have an ebook this time so I only have three to share:

"I'd rather see the others."
"What others?"
"The ones who make it. The ones living in freedom now."
"If any do."
"They do."
"Some say they do. It's like dying, though, and going to heaven. Nobody ever comes back to tell you about it."


"Rufus had caused her trouble, and now he had been rewarded for it. It made no sense. No matter how kindly he treated her now that he had destroyed her, it made no sense."


Kevin: "There are so many interesting times we could have visited."

finished reading kindred for the first time a few days ago and just read through these comments. they gave me so many more things to think about and consider. very grateful.

one thing on my mind that didnt come up in the discussion -- did it feel like a plothole to anyone else how forlorn and distant kevin was when he returned from his 5yr stint in the past, and then it just wasnt addressed again? even though, for him, only a few hours passed until the next time he sees dana. i guess a lot changes too when your long lost love comes back from time travel missing a limb and needing to be emergency rushed to the hospital. a small point in a packed full story. but it's stuck with me.

ive read butler's parable series, fledgling (my favorite), and kindred. interested in checking out more.

rutt wrote: "finished reading kindred for the first time a few days ago and just read through these comments. they gave me so many more things to think about and consider. very grateful.

one thing on my mind t..."

Yes, I only read Kindred by her but heard the Parable series is great. I must read them. Beacon Press has a forthcoming Kindred YA edition with a beautiful, striking cover.

young adult version, is that the graphics novels or new version