The Malazan Fallen discussion

Chapter Two discussion thread

So there are a whole lot of new names and a new political system to learn. The Dramatis Personae is your friend.

This chapter introduces us to the three Beddict brothers.

Hull Beddict
– Former Captain of the Letherii King’s guard. He was sent on a mission to learn about the surrounding native tribes – He had thought he was learning so that everyone could live in peace and harmony with each other. – a genuine exchange of ideas and values etc. But in fact, the knowledge he brought back to the Letherii was used to impoverish and subjugate those peoples – supplying gifts or aid that weren’t really gifts
Gifts that were not gifts at all, incurring debts, the debts exchanged for land. The deadly maze lined with traders, merchants, seducers of false need, purveyors of destructive poisons. Defiance answered with annihilation.

Hull Beddict was devastated. He went native. Ironically he is held in high regard by the people he helped destroy.

He’s angry and he intends to make sure that the Letherii don’t do to the Edur what they did to the other three peoples in the area and he intends to sabotage his country’s aims at the upcoming talks

‘Acquitor, you might as well know, and so understand me clearly. I mean to shatter that gathering. I mean to incite the Edur into war with Letheras.’

Tehol Beddict
We find Tehol living in squalor in Lether city. He is a failed business man – or so he would have everyone believe. In fact he successfully ran a con that saw investors throw money at him. And then he went bust and losing all that money. But everyone suspects he squirreled the investors money away and that his squalor is a ruse until things blow over. But his squalor wasn’t a ruse and his investors finally wrote off the loss. But he did squirrel money way – just not for himself. Rather he bought land, islands in fact so that the subjugated tribes of the Nerek, Faraed and Tarthanal could start a new life away from the Letherii system of indebtedness.
He has done this anonymously, but the tribes have assumed that their friend Hull Beddict was involved. Perhaps this is part of why they still love him.

In any case three women, one Faraed and two Tarthanal follow the money trail to Tehol. They want him to do a repeat performance but on a much larger scale. So large in fact that when they pull the pin on the scam it will collapse the Letherii economy completely. This serves as revenge on Letheras, but also will leave them enough money to buy the rest of the islands for the tribes. Part of their argument in trying to convince Tehol to go along with the scheme is that it would bring a measure of peace to his guilt ridden brother, Hull. And Tehol is in.

We want those islands, Tehol Beddict. We know about the remnants of the tribes you delivered to the ones you bought. We know they’re hiding out there, trying to rebuild all that they had lost. But it’s not enough. Walk this city’s streets and the truth of that is plain. You did it for Hull.

Brys Beddict

The Letherii King’s Champion.
Through his POV we get to see how the King’s court is divided into factions. We have the queen, her son and the chancellor on one side, all jostling for position. It appears they want the upcoming talks with the Edur rigged in their favour. We learn that the queen is responsible for the raids on the Edur seal breeding grounds and that this is done as a prelude to renegotiating the current agreement with the Edur

It’s rumoured that the primary holder of interest in the seven merchant houses that defied the treaty is none other than Queen Janall herself.’

The other interesting thing is that the Letherii follow a religion of the holds

...the king’s edict forced them to embrace the faith of the Holds.

In particular their focus in on The Empty Hold

The Empty Hold – heart of Letherii worship

They have a prophecy that their King will ascend.

‘We are nearing Seventh Closure. It is momentous. The First Empire shall be reborn. King Diskanar shall be transformed – he shall ascend and assume the ancient title of First Emperor.’

The King’s Ceda or sorcerer doesn’t think the prophecy is as specific as to name the Letherii King.

Anyway, we do learn a few of the Hold’s names

The Errant would then weave its mysterious skein, forging the Holds themselves. Ice. Eleint. Azath. Beast.

Plus the Empty Hold.

Interesting, the Ceda does the equivalent of a reading of the Deck of Dragons, but uses Tiles instead of Cards. In that reading there is a barrow of the Azath Hold (we know the Azath houses take powerful souls) – and there is a gate tile of the Dragon Hold. There is an Azath house somewhere around Letherii because the Ceda has gone to see if anything has been trying to get out. Then there is the seed tile of the Ice hold.
(view spoiler)[ This all foreshadows Silchas Ruins escape release from the Azath and then taking Kettle who becomes the seed for a new Azath (hide spoiler)]

One of the complexities of the Letherii political system is that the King and Queen are political rivals. In a lot of ways the Letherii system has a lot of similarities to Western politics and in particular American politics - where the President and vice president are often political rivals. But the similarities don't end there - in fact the similarities are so striking that it would be hard to argue that Erikson wasn't giving a commentary of Western/American politics.
We have Big Business involved - The Queen can't be too overt in contradicting the King's position but her financial backing from the Merchant class gives her a lot of room to move as a political rivals. For example she has interests in at least seven merchant houses. She was able to command a fleet, seemingly without sanction from the king to violate the Letherii/Edur treaty regarding rights to seal harvesting.
Other similarities - the granting of loans to poorer nations - those loans backed by big business who then take control of lands and contracts.

Gifts that were not gifts at all, incurring debts, the debts exchanged for land. The deadly maze lined with traders, merchants,

The Edur, are obviously aware of the conquest by big business because part of their agreement with the Lether is the banning of merchants from their land unless they are supervised by an agreed upon "Aquitor."

Seren Pedac was Buruk’s Acquitor, granted passage into Edur lands, one of seven so sanctioned by the last treaty. No merchant could enter Edur territory unless guided by an Acquitor.

The amounts of politics going on in these first few chapters is so dense that it's a little daunting on a first read, especially when you may just be wanting the plot to move along and having to deal with so many new names etc - at least for me it was. But its a lot of fun to unpack this second read. First time round, by the time I cottoned on that this was a parody of Western politics (it gets more obvious as you go) I'd missed the boat in these early chapters.

But lets dissect Team King Diskanar and Team Queen Janall.


Team King

Nifidas - First Eunuch
Kuru Qan - Ceda ie Royal Sorcerer
Unnutal Hebaz - Preda (Commander) of the Army
Brys Beddict - Finnad(Captain) Newly appointed King's Champion
Gerun Eberict - a Finnad

There may be more I've missed and I'm assuming none of these are double agents.


Team Queen

Quillas Diskanar - Crown Prince
Triban Gnol - Chancellor
Turudal Brizad - First Consort to the Queen
Moroch Nevad - Prince's Bodyguard and rival to Brys for the position of King's Champion.

A single nod of acknowledgement, then Moroch stepped to one side.
Prince Quillas Diskanar entered. Behind him came Chancellor Triban Gnol. Then, two figures that made Brys start. Queen Janall and her First Consort, Turudal Brizad.
By the Errant, the entire squalid nest.


The confrontation between the Queen and the Preda shows how much wrangling there is from both sides for representation on the entourage to the Edur. The Queen wants to make sure she has adequate representation at the meeting. She wants to have a hand in setting policy in the coming negotiations to make sure her interests ie big business are well looked after.

Once you get your head around this, a lot of the conversations start making a whole lot more sense.

For example in Hull Beddicts and Seren's conversation

She nodded. ‘Representing the king’s interests, Nifadas.’
‘Good. The First Eunuch is no fool.’
‘Nifadas will be sharing command with Prince Quillas Diskanar.’
Hull Beddict slowly turned to face her. ‘She’s risen far, then.’(Hull recognises that the Queen's ability to put her son in the entourage demonstrates how much her influence has grown)
‘She has. And for all the years since you last crossed her son’s path ... well, Quillas has changed little. The queen keeps him on a short leash, with the Chancellor close at hand to feed him sweet treats. It’s rumoured that the primary holder of interest in the seven merchant houses that defied the treaty is none other than Queen Janall herself.’
‘And the Chancellor dares not leave the palace,’ Hull Beddict said, and she heard the sneer.(The Chancellor can't afford to leave the palace lest his rivals undermine him in his absence) ‘So he sends Quillas. A mistake. The prince is blind to subtlety. He knows his own ignorance and stupidity so is ever suspicious of others, especially when they say things he does not understand. One cannot negotiate when dragged in the wake of emotions.’
‘Hardly a secret,’ Seren Pedac replied. And waited.
Hull Beddict spat into the fire. ‘They don’t care. The queen’s let him slip the leash. Allowing Quillas to flail about, to deliver clumsy insults in the face of Hannan Mosag. Is this plain arrogance? Or do they truly invite war?’That is the question - does the queen want a war?
‘I don’t know.’
‘And Buruk the Pale – whose instructions does he carry?’


Baruk is the Queen's man or at least he is not the King's man according to Nifadas

Further, it is my understanding that Buruk is charged with a host of instructions – none issued by me, I might add. In other words, it is likely that those instructions not only do not reflect the king’s interests, but in fact may contradict our Sire’s wishes.

So games within games within games.


But this game has a wild card. Hull Beddict who reveals at the end of the chapter he intends to start a war

Brys stared down at the blank tile. ‘Hull may prove a problem,’ he said in a dull voice.
‘This is what your heart whispered?’
‘It is.’
‘At the Great Meeting?’
He nodded.
‘How?’
‘I fear, Ceda, that he might kill Prince Quillas Diskanar.’


That would do it.

Usually the Pres and Vp are not rivals here, sometimes in the primaries but even on the first read I was very aware that this was a commentary on the US where money rules, and the politicians play dirty with ownership in corps or at least have major interest.

Doesn't Tehol also have money at the bottom of water? Niro has dredging rights but Tehol is his boss.

Because adding like 10 new characters in one chapter isn't confusing enough, some of them have titles that don't appear to be explained apart from the character list.

This book is not off to a good start with me. Thank goodness for David's summaries.

I agree with Lori, as far as I'm concerned, none of the Presidents have had a political rival for a VP in my lifetime.

I know that was common in the early days of the US. My history is a bit rusty, but lately VPs are chosen to compliment the President in areas/states where they are weak to help win the election.

Oh dear Rob, sorry you're not liking this so much. I think you've now met most of the characters now, hope that eases your mind. I also think you went into this book somewhat wary and so far the confusion isn't helping, eep!

This story is like starting all over again. But I can promise you this, it is one of the most fascinating story lines in the whole series.

In the original US Constitution, the candidate with the most electoral votes became President, and the runner-up became Vice President. This virtually assured that the two would be from opposite parties, and that power would shift on the death of a President. It also meant that, in the event of a tie vote in the Senate, the President's party would lose because the Vice President casts the deciding vote in case of a tie.

In 1800, Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr tied for President. After a long, drawn out political struggle, Alexander Hamilton finally tilted the balance by throwing his support to Jefferson (his political adversary), and getting the Congress to break the tie. Jefferson became President, and Burr became Vice President. As a side not, Burr later killed Hamilton in a duel. The guys just did not get along very well.

As a result of this fiasco, the twelfth amendment to the constitution was proposed and ratified before the next election. It established the current practice of having President and Vice President run from the same party on tickets. It's still a theoretical possibility that the Pres and Vice Pres come from opposite parties, but in today's world its almost impossible.

Never thought I would write all of that on a Malazan board.

Duffy wrote: "Never thought I would write all of that on a Malazan board. "

Yeah. I remembered some of that from history class, but I was entirely too lazy to write it up. That was what I meant by it was common in the early days. :-D

Wonderful history lesson, thanks Duffy!

Thanks Duffy.

Cool. Forever learning stuff on this site. Nice work Duffy.

Oh, so the Letherii believe that their King will ascend and take the throne of the Empty Hold, huh? Interesting.
I wonder who the Betrayer could be.
I suppose you can't read the Crippled God in the tiles since he's not part of it, right?

I'm with Rob on this. This book seems to throw you into the deep end AGAIN!!

Thank goodness for this group otherwise I would have quit the series right about now...

Renny wrote: "I wonder who the Betrayer could be."

Well, the first betrayer we see is in the prologue ie Scabandari, the Edur leader who stabs Silchas, the Andii leader in the back - but there's quite a bit of betrayal going on moving forward.

It's funny that no-one had the same reaction to the start of House of Chains, where again we were thrown into an entirely new setting, with a new set of strange "gods" and a new race to deal with. I think the problem people have is the novel information combined with the kalaidescopic point of views. But, on the first read, I remember being no more put off by this book than the others. Memories of Ice is the only one so far that starts off in a place that is somewhat comfortable for the reader. It's just Erikon's way.

When people read Martin, they talk about how nice it is to return to Westeros. I've never heard anyone say that they like Erikson because they are particularly fond of, say, Genebackis or Seven Cities. And that brings up an interesting question, what is the main quality of these books that keeps you reading?

In house of chains, while it's a bunch of new characters, it's also a lot more straightforward than anything else in the series so far.

No constant hopping around between plotlines.

I'm not sure what keeps me reading. It's probably the scope coupled with the depth of his characters.

I think the draw for me is the intricate world building and being presented with well developed mysteries and puzzles and genealogies that are solvable without the author having to hand you the answers on a platter.

I agree with David, working at understanding this story gives me a great sense of achievement when I finish a book. When i discuss this book with people, I am passionate about it, like the characters are real people.
It is the only series that I have ever read, where half way through, I couldn't wait to start again.

David expressed it perfectly. The mystery, the puzzles, the scope, of course the characters but also the universal concepts we are forced to ponder. Time, war, morality, love, evil, all that stuff. Philosophy in the middle of epic struggles.

I agree with what David said, although I'm not very good as putting stuff together myself.

Every now and again I figure something out ahead of time, but it's hard to know if that's me or just the really good discussion here.

I'm getting used to books in this series all with new characters and even story. Keeps the series fresh for me. I wonder at times how I will go back and finish reading the Wheel of Time series (which I gave up after book 5) once I'm done with this series.

Renny wrote: "I wonder at times how I will go back and finish reading the Wheel of Time series ((which I gave up after book 5) once I'm done with this series."

The series is so uneven. I LOVED books 1-3,11-14. 5,7,8 are OK. 6,9, and especially 10 were painful to get through. I'm glad I stuck with it and finished, but I don't know that I'd ever want to reread.

Maybe being married to your editor isn't the best idea. Someone more objective to have him cut out some of crap in a few of those books, and condensed them down a book or two making the overall series much better.

Duffy wrote: "And that brings up an interesting question, what is the main quality of these books that keeps you reading?"

First and foremost for me is the characters. New or old they never disappoint. As well the payoff. Erikson always starts slow and then builds until BAM! The payoff.

Atleast after this novel we have met 90% of the Dramatis Personae. The boulder has made it to the top of the mountain and from here on in starts the fast roll down.

Mikeiwo wrote: Atleast after this novel we have met 90% of the Dramatis Personae. The boulder has made it to the top of the mountain and from here on in starts the fast roll down."

Excellent news!

after this novel we have met 90% of the Dramatis Personae

Hmmmm, 90%? I'd have to say 65-70%.

We have my namesake to look forward

I'd say 85 percent. After this book the players and places are pretty much all set up to start converging and what a ride it is.

players and places are pretty much all set up

Except maybe the cast from the Forkrul Assail, the K'Chain Che'Malle, the Bonehunters, the Khundyal and a few lessor gods.

I am sticking with 70% tops.

Heehee. You're right but the others don't all get dropped on us at once. It's easy to keep track of them. So my percentage may not be statistically correct but more psychological! :)

Oh we both forgot about the Shake!

lol yes we did. Plus more Tiste Andii and Liosan. Oh and lets forget the Awl.

hahahhahaaha aaaaaaaargghhh

Probably another couple hundered characters then.

Do we know yet that the King and Queen on rivals? I'd gotten that they might not be married to each other, given that the Queen has a First Consort, but I hadn't picked up on anything more specific.

I'm really loving the beginning of this book, maybe even more than MoI. The world-building is what I'm reading the series for, and all the hopping around really helps that. It makes the world so much more believable for me when you never run out of complicated cultures to explore, especially when they turn out to all connect up somehow with the ones you already knew about.

Based on their name and their size, I bet the Tarthenal are another branch of fallen Toblakai.

I'm seeing parallels between the Tiste Edur - Letherii interaction and the situation with the Teblor and the various lowlanders in HoC. It sounds like Hannan Mosag is well on his way to accomplishing for the Tiste Edur what Karsa wants to accomplish for the Teblor. I'll be interested to see whether their paths diverge, or what they think of each other if they ever meet.

Since the series has seemed more archaeological than anthropological, it was cool to see an anthropologist as one of the main new characters.

Silvio wrote: "Do we know yet that the King and Queen on rivals? I'd gotten that they might not be married to each other, given that the Queen has a First Consort, but I hadn't picked up on anything more specific..."

They are married but it is obviously just a political marriage at this point - but Prince Quillas is the king's heir.

I think it is strongly implied that the King and Queen are rivals in the sense that the Queen is pursuing her own political agenda apart from the King. She can't directly oppose the King, but she's skirting the edges. For example - the attack on the Edur Seals was her initiative. She also tries to muscle the King's commander(Preda) into changing a selection on the delegation to the Edur. Before the Preda meets with the Queen she brings Brys Beddict, the Kings Champion as muscle. She did not feel safe in the Queen's presence.

In the following chapters it's interesting seeing the political maneuvering surrounding the delegation being sent to the Edur. It seems that the queen has very little "official" political authority but exerts influence through her business alliances with the Merchant Class as well as having the crown prince under her thumb.

As Hull Beddict knows

Hull Beddict knew better than most King Ezgara Diskanar’s mind – or, rather, that of the Royal Household, which wasn’t always the same thing.

Also the conversation between Seren and Hull about the coming delegation hints at cross purposes

She nodded. ‘Representing the king’s interests, Nifadas.’
‘Good. The First Eunuch is no fool.’
‘Nifadas will be sharing command with Prince Quillas Diskanar.’
Hull Beddict slowly turned to face her. ‘She’s risen far, then.’

Subtle, subtle.

Having now re-read this chapter, I don't think the analogy to the President and Vice-President is a good one. Rather, the relationship between the King and Queen sounds very much like the relationships between European kings and their queens in the middle ages and the Renaissance.

For example, Henry II of England was married to Eleanor of Acquitaine. She was an accomplished general in her own right, and they often had diverging political interests. Louis XIII of France was married to Anne of Austria. France, under Richelieu, was opposed to the Hapsburg interests during the Thirty Years War, while Anne's natural family interests would tend to align her with France's enemies. Where marriage was used to form uneasy political alliances, there was almost necessarily a tension between the political interests of the spouses.

With the Letheri, its harder to see where the political tension would come from. Letheri's situation with respect to its neighbors does not resemble Europe. There don't seem to be any rival civilizations. Instead, there are surrounding tribes whom the Letheri consider barbarians. I'm trying to think of a better parallel: Rome? China?

Henry II of England was married to Eleanor of Acquitaine

Duffy, that is an excellent example and much more closer to the Letharii political landscape.

Maybe early Rome when they were dealing with the (German)barbarians in the north. Maybe the Edur are the Carthaginian equivalent. I don't think we are going to see any triumvirates though ;)

Duffy wrote: "Having now re-read this chapter, I don't think the analogy to the President and Vice-President is a good one."

It wasn't really. But I do believe that Erikson is creating a parody of modern Western/First world economic and international policy. The enslavement of individuals and nations via debt/mortgage/aid etc.

Yes everything about Lether is a slam on capitalism especially America with it shriveled spirit in the quest for ownership, consumer must buy need it right away to be happy.

I would have to say this was the most confusing chapter of the entire series so far! Without David's helpful breaking down I fear I would have been lost for some time!

The other books have not been so bad as although they are new settings and gods most have familiarity to them. A lot of this book so far is a very new system and many characters in 1 go.

Still I am enjoying this book so far but even more with David's help!

Thanks Paul. There is a lot of new worldbuilding this book as we are dealing with a political system that has never encountered the rest of the world we know and still follows the Holds - which gives us a chance an in depth look at a new(but older) system.

Duffy wrote: "Having now re-read this chapter, I don't think the analogy to the President and Vice-President is a good one. Rather, the relationship between the King and Queen sounds very much like the relation..."

That's fascinating about Europe. I'm not sure if we know whether the tension between this king and queen is typical for Letheras, but assuming it is, here's my two cents. There's no need for outside interference to explain political conflict, especially in a society as full of vicious competition as Letheras. The king and queen's families, or the king and queen themselves, could own stock in rival companies or something like that. More colorfully, the queen might rather be the mother of an ascendant than the wife of one - then the prophecy would give her some incentive to arrange for the king's abdication or death sometime in the next year. Anyway, in this series it seems like powerful people don't need much motive to squabble. Also, Letheras has a lot more gender equality than traditional Europe, so Letherii queens can probably better afford to oppose the king than European queens could.

i'm late to an interesting discussion!

1) first of all on the politics, in addition to the european queens/kings story (which i agree with, other example: the marriage of Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon)
but if you think about it even today you have political situations like this. it's not kings and queens anymore, but in many cases countries are being governed by conflicting political parties in coalition.
my own dear country (which is probably one of the most complicated ones, hence it took them more than 500days to get from election time to having a government, unfortunately i'm not kidding) there are 6 political parties governing
a lot of european countries have a coalition of 2 or 3 parties so you have conflicting interests all the time within the governing body. add to that the opposition parties and it's a pleasant mess to watch. :)


2) regarding the books. so far i struggled the most with book 2 because it was a completely different world. with book 3 i was happy to be back in Genebackis (the first line of my review reads "So glad to be back on Genabackis. It felt comfortable to be back in a place we know. "
So duffy it does happen in Erikson as well :)
Book 4 was ok because we had been there in book 2.
But now it's again a different place. So far i'm ok, but i only read three chapters

Yes I'm afraid I'm so US centric I forgot about parliament govts where coalitions are formed, yet I have often felt that kind of govt is far far better than what we have because it forces some sort of bipartisan coalition.

As for the brand new continent, yes it is daunting at first, but remember that MOI and of GotM were brand new. And this is a far easier narrative than those, I think. I guess I want to reassure you that once past the first chapters it's great. :)

I'm so glad you're kind of up to speed with the group, yay!

Hanne wrote: "a lot of european countries have a coalition of 2 or 3 parties so you have conflicting interests all the time within the governing body. "

That's a good example. I should have thought about that because we have a similar system in Australian politics. We also have a current situation with a kind of King and Queen of the governing party where the queen stabbed the king in the back and took over the party to become the first woman Prime Minister, and now a few years later the same king has restabbed the queen in the back - with exactly the same knife (faceless men).
I'm sure politicians think us voters are stupid.

We don't hear too much about Aussie politics, that's fascinating.

Oh and the problem is that here, most of the voters are stupid, with the GOP saying things that are complete fabrication but their constituent swallow it whole.

I think Aussie's have low expectations of the integrity of our politicians which is a little sad. We expect them to lie and be conniving and self interested because that's all we've seen for a while and so we can get a little apathetic about it all.

David Sven wrote: "I think Aussie's have low expectations of the integrity of our politicians which is a little sad. We expect them to lie and be conniving and self interested because that's all we've seen for a whil..."

i don't think it's just Aussie's.
here we definitely don't have high opinion of politicians either.

We don't either except the stupids which is scarily the majority who seem to swallow the lies in the name of religion and self righteousness.