The Malazan Fallen discussion

Chapter Three discussion thread

The Edur pursue the Letherii ships that stole the seal harvest. Hanna Mosag has cast a spell to deny wind to the 19 fleeing ships and to encase them in fog. Wjhen they finally catch up to the enemy, instead of using the shadow wraiths and Kurald Emurlahn – the warlock calls on some other power that comes out of the sea killing everything alive. There is no battle to witness, but the Letherii sailors all die screaming– even the sharks around the boat die.

A flash of anger in Uruth’s eyes. ‘This was no full unveiling. This was ademonic summoning.’
Trull frowned. ‘I do not understand, Mother. There were shadows—’
‘And a darkness,’ Fear cut in. ‘From the depths ... darkness.’

Concerned, Urath sends her sons on a secret mission to see something called The Stone Bowl. The Stone bowl turns out to be a pocket warren of Kaschan. From the description of the sky keeps we can conclude that the Kaschan are the K’Chain Chemalle

With this sorcery, they fashioned fortresses of stone that rode the sky like clouds.


Within the pocket warren, they see the dead Elient soletaken form of Scabandari Father Shadow – His head caved in where Kilmandaros (Summoned by Mael in the Prologue) struck him down.

Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. They then made for Bloodeye’s spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured.


When the Kaschan saw that they were losing the battle with the Tiste they sent devastating sorcery through into Kurald Galain –

Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague.

The curse was like a black hole in nature. Where Dark would consume all light and all matter – when all light was gone, Shadow would also be gone as would be all existence

‘The Tiste Invasions drove the Kaschan to their last act. Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant. Because of the Kaschan ritual, the eternal game among Dark, Light and Shadow would one day end. And with it, all of existence.’.

This knowledge has been a secret held by the Tiste Women, handed down from generation to generation. Uruth breaks the tradition by showing this to her sons. She believes Hannan Mosag has somehow discovered the Stone Bowl and Scabandari body and has learned the truth about what the Elder gods have done.

‘Uruth knows he has been here, to this place. How he discovered the truth remains a mystery. Uruth would never have told me and Binadas, if not for her desperation. The Warlock King is drawing upon deadly powers. Are his thoughts stained? If not before, they are now.’

And Hannan Mosag means to make war on the Elder gods

‘Hannan Mosag means to avenge our god.’


So we already know from the previous book that the Edur were usurped by The crippled god – is this how they were seduced into his war against the gods?

The Lore we’ve learned so far we know Father Shadow has 3 daughters

Sheltatha Lore, Daughter Dusk, the most cherished

Sukul Ankhadu, the Daughter of Deceit, also known as Dapple.

Daughter Dawn. Menandore
Dawn. The Edur’s most feared Daughter. Menandore.


Udinaas, infected and possibly possessed by a Wyval has a dream where he encounters Menandore. She threatens to kill him unless he swears some sort of allegiance with the Wyval

‘The blood of a Locqui Wyval... in the body of a slave. Which heart, mortal, will you ride?’

After Udinaas gives in to her demand she rapes him.


The question that arises then – what does Menandore – a god of Shadow have to do with Wyval – which are feral Elient spawn? Or maybe we should ask, if Wyval are mongrols ie half Elient – who or what is the other half? Are they half Shadow?

‘The Wyval’s blood is alive, Feather Witch. The Wyval’s blood is what binds us to the Tiste Edur.’
‘Impossible. Wyval are spawn of the Eleint. They are the mongrels of the dragons, and even the dragons do not control them. They are of the Hold, yet feral.’

Before the Wyval attacked Feather Witch, Udinaas sees a sign

When you were attacked, I thought it was the White Crow. But don’t you see? White, the face of Menandore, of Dawn. That is what the Fulcra were showing us.’

That would mean that Menandore was behind the attack. The question now is why? Was she trying to prevent Feather Witch from doing her divination? Or did she orchestrate the whole think just to mate indirectly with a Wyval? Questions questions.


While Trull Sengar is standing Vigil for a dead Edur he encounters an entity he refers to as “The Betrayer.”
It become pretty clear that this is in fact Silchas Ruin from the Prologue ie Anomander Rake’s brother – though the Edur’s racial memory of who betrayed who is a little different to what we saw of those events

‘Father Shadow imprisoned you—’(In the Azath)
‘So he did, and there I remain.’ Once again, that ghastly smile. ‘Except when I dream. Mother Dark’s reluctant gift, a reminder to me that She does not forget. A reminder to me that I, too, must never forget.’
‘This is not a dream,’ Trull said.

Remember the Ceda’s earlier reading of the tiles about the restless Barrow.

I liked this chapter much better than the first two. Maybe because it didn't introduce a bunch of new characters.

David Sven wrote: "From the description of the sky keeps we can conclude that the Kaschan are the K’Chain Chemalle"

That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure.

Maybe because it didn't introduce a bunch of new characters.

LOL, every book has at least twenty new characters. Minimum. I think there is 500 odd in the entire series. That may or may not be an exaggeration.

Lee wrote: "LOL, every book has at least twenty new characters. Minimum. I think there is 500 odd in the entire series. That may or may not be an e..."

I don't begrudge epic fantasy having a lot of characters. He could spread them out a little more.

In many ways he's a good writer. This is one criticism I have of him so far.

Well he did dump them on us in only 2 chapters here, not very spread out. But what I find with SE is that in spite of how many characters there are, they are all so well differentiated! IE doesn't do that, can't tell one from the other and so I couldn't get into his books.

True. His best character development is using SE's characters.

I'm looking forward to anything more we'll hear about Tiste Edur lore and how it is or isn't accurate. If the K'Chain Che'Malle are responsible for the end of the world, that's a big deal for the cosmology.

After reading through Fear's telling of Edur history, I get the feeling that Scabandari was a good guy after all. Or are we just hearing the Edur version?

Renny wrote: "After reading through Fear's telling of Edur history, I get the feeling that Scabandari was a good guy after all. Or are we just hearing the Edur version?"

Exactly. The Edur have a different version of history than what we witnessed in the Prologue. The prologue gives us an omniscient POV so we can know some of the facts - but we still only see a snapshot of the scene. We don't know all the history between Silchas and Scabandari.

From the start, it looks like Scabandari made what we now call a pre-emptive strike. Seeing that war was inevitable anyway, he decided to try to end it quickly. I love the idea that there is someone in the holds called the "Betrayer." Given what we've seen so far in this series, you would think the patron god of betrayal would have tons of worshippers.

The other thing that struck me in this chapter is how long the Edur live. It sounds like they are just like the Andii, and live for hundreds of thousands of years. Given that, do we have any clue how old Trull and his brothers are? If Rhulad is just an unblooded youth, does that mean he's only 20,000 years old?

Is that what comes when you live a hundred thousand years?

Apart from this sentence, there appears to be nothing to indicate the Edur lived anything other than normal lifespans. No one seems to remember the time of Scabandari - so I'm assuming there are no Edur here that lived at that time. Hannan Mosag has visions of that time since he was a child. I can't imagine Rhulad or Mayen staying unmarried for that time. There are comparisons made between "old" and "young."

There were 18000 Edur who survived the battle in the prologue while at the time of this book there were hundreds of thousands - but no reference to any of the original survivors being alive.

I'll have to keep an eye out for any other references that give us a clue

Well since they dont know their true history I'd say they are long living but not like the Andii.

Yeah, I agree with David Sven and Lori. So if they don't live as long as the Tiste Andii, what I wonder is why not. And what about the Tiste Liosan?

Well we know Osserc and Rake are contemparasies so It appears that the Liosan live as long as the Andii.

David Sven wrote: "Is that what comes when you live a hundred thousand years?

Apart from this sentence, there appears to be nothing to indicate the Edur lived anything other than normal lifespans. No one seems to re..."

There is another comment. I read this yesterday evening so the exact words are fuzzy but when they're talking about the engagement of Mayen which lasts a year, but he remarks that a year for Edur is like a day for the Letherii

so perhaps not as long as the tiste andii, but still an awful lot longer than normal

I don't think this is a spoiler, and it is relevant here. Later there is a comment that the engagement process can take ten years or more. At this point, I have no idea how old Fear, Trull, and Rhulad are,just there relative ages.

I do expect the Edur are long lived and possibly even as long as the Andii - it's just these Edur have been born AFTER the prologue so they aren't as old as Rake and and Andii with him - I think.

I do remember that there is no one still alive from the time of the betrayal, therefore no one can cast doubt on their myths. Hannan is the oldest, darn I can't remember where it was but his age is mentioned. I think the Edur don't live as long as the Andii because Shadow is broken and their powers are no longer as massive as the Tiste. They've also been so cut off from their past knowledge.

Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant.

He murdered siclhas that is why the ascendants are angry with him ??

Sumant wrote: "Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant.

He murdered siclhas that is why the ascendants are angry with him ??"

Also because he was somehow involved in the shattering of Kurald Emurlahn - this gets explained a bit more next book - but Silchas accuses him of it in the prologue of this book

I love that the Edur are operating with an understanding of their history which is at odds with the Prologue which we were able to witness. Erikson is daring us to take their words as a true account despite having just shown us something different. A fascinating way to show how lore can develop in a people group.

Also, wow! Scabandari is not lost and wandering but has been slain and his spirit imprisoned. Hannan Mosag wants to wreak revenge on the whole pantheon of gods because of the Elder gods' judgment upon Scabandari (Father Shadow). And he doesn't care who he needs to partner with or what alliances he needs to sell the Edur into to get there. He seems to have been consorting with some rather powerful beings who are not of Kurald Emurlahn.

I love how SE nods at the fact that HM's vision for the united Edur people is completely at odds with everything the Edur stand for. Earlier in the chapter Trull is musing on the crime of vengeance and that nothing was so serious. In fact, whole bloodlines would be executed for carrying out the crime of vengeance, presumably to prevent protracted blood feuds between Edur tribes. Interestingly this is entirely at odds with the Teblor culture we learned about in HoC. Good stuff.

I'm not sure I understood much of Udinaas' vision/dream. I got that the blood of the Wyval has poisoned him and is now vying for control in him. Also, Menandore, Daughter of Dawn, raped him for his seed only after he gave himself to the Wyval. I didn't understand much else but knowing SE it is almost certainly significant.