Supernatural Fiction Readers discussion

In outlining my next short I sort of wandered into this genre question. Can werewolves drown? In most of the stuff I've read or watched, only silver or fire will kill a werewolf. But what happens when they are deprived of oxygen? Do they stay conscious? Do they become lethargic?

The closest I can think of to this is an old Mario Van Peebles movie, Full Eclipse, where police officers are given werewolf spinal fluid injections to make them superhuman. There's a scene where they swim a great distance with their new strength. Nothing I can recallabout holding their breath, etc. Just wondering, has this ever been done before- having a werewolf in water?

It would depend on the mythology. Most classical werewolves are humans under a spell or a curse, so I expect they would drown too. The Universal werewolf is immortal, mainly because that way they could justify making as many movies as they wanted. In such a case they may end up stuck at the bottom of the ocean, perpetually alive but unable to move, which would really suck.
But unltimately the real answer is, do you want them to? If yes, then yes.

My book, Pack Hunters, (due out hopefully in the next few days) has a scene with werewolves hunting underwater.

Hmmmm! If I understand correctly, all (or at least most) mammals, including wolves, can swim instinctively. So if we imagine lycanthropy to mean the actual transformation of a human into a wolf, I'd assume that he/she could swim in the wolf state. But I don't know if any literary werewolf authors have dealt with the question, or if it comes up in any of the folklore.

Lee, were you able to dredge up any research, or are you water-winging it?

Werner, I was looking at more of the situation of a human/wolf hybrid lycan who finds themselves in over their head- would they drown? It would seem to ad a new way to kill one- wrap 'em in chains and heave them overboard.

I'd think they could drown. Dense muscle would make swimming hard, but if wrapped in chains, would they turn back & be able to swim out?

In a number of the werewolf books I've read lately werewolves are too heavy to swim (even in human form - weird) but its been unclear wether they die or just keep suffocating underwater. I think I've read books going both ways.

I think this is an area that is unclear and where you can choose how to do it in your world. Frankly in the books where they couldn't swim in human form to save a drowning werewolf in wolf form did not work for me.

Given that real wolves can swim I would find werewolves being able to swim convincing. You might also want to find some of the earlier work on werewolves. I've been amazed at how much of what we think of as "vampire myths" is fairly recent and if you go back to the original Dracula or the penny dreadful Varney The Vampire Or The Feast Of Blood, Volume III things were different.

A number of the things I'm planning on doing with my Jewish vampires goes back to the roots... Which was accidental on my part. I decided if I was going to write about vampires not only did I need to research Jewish mythology on the topic but I should read some of the earlier stuff written and see the progression over time. It's been fascinating as well as educational.

Tasha, thanks. I do have in mind my own spin on it, but I was curious if it had been addressed before. As a connosieur of B Movies, I couldn't recall ever having seen it done, and with our planet so much covered in water, it seems like at some point you'd get a Werewolf at Seas (hey, Sea Wolves!) kind of story.

I like the Monster Squad version of a werewolf, where NOTHING but silver kills them- they magically pull themeselves back together. But what would happen to such a wolf in a vaccuum? In concrete? Do they NEED oxygen, or does the magic from their curse sustain them?

Tasha wrote: "In a number of the werewolf books I've read lately werewolves are too heavy to swim (even in human form - weird) but its been unclear wether they die or just keep suffocating underwater. I think I'..."

I read a cute story years ago, which claimed that vampires were Christian monsters, and when one tried to feed off a Jew he died. It was called Wear Wolf as I recall. The premise was a company that made magic suits that gave the wearer the attributes of the suit, and a man was trying to get them to license his vampire costume.

C.E. wrote: "Lee, were you able to dredge up any research, or are you water-winging it?"

The truth is it was just to add a bit of variety, but I think it is fair to say that my werewolves are (apart from physical appearance) not like anything that has been seen in the past hundred years and I've even worked into the Inuit folklore about the Adlet.

Marc I'll have to try to find that book. Sound interesting.

Tasha wrote: "Marc I'll have to try to find that book. Sound interesting."

I believe it's a short story. I'm not sure where I saw it, years ago.

In Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson stories, werewolves do drown. She gives an explanation which I can't remember.

Carolyn F. wrote: "In Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson stories, werewolves do drown. She gives an explanation which I can't remember."

I'm pretty sure she was one of the too heavy reasoners.

I prefer my werewolves to be as biological as possible, which means they would definitely drown.

Charles wrote: "I prefer my werewolves to be as biological as possible, which means they would definitely drown."

But wolves can swim so why would being true to biology have them drown?

Tasha wrote: "Charles wrote: "I prefer my werewolves to be as biological as possible, which means they would definitely drown."

But wolves can swim so why would being true to biology have them drown?"

I didn't mean to imply they'd drown just by getting in the water, but that they could drown if they were held under the water. They would have to breathe.

Ah. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Tasha wrote: "Ah. Sorry for misunderstanding."

No prob.

Well, it is a curse, that's probably the important thing to remember - so, I'd say, probably not. In FRANKENSTEIN MEETS THE WOLF MAN, all it took was moonlight falling on poor Larry Talbot's bones to bring him back to miserable, suffering life....

If someone manages to get a werewolf into a situation where it is in deep water and unable to swim, then yes. lol.

Even if your werewolf is immortal, that doesn't make it invincible. Death by drowning occurs from the brain not getting enough oxygen and the heart going into cardiac arrest, right? If all that happens before someone tries to resuscitate, then there is nothing to restart the cells into repairing themselves/regenerating, right?

And if your lycanthrope is of the wolfman looking variety, than it's probably of a heavier mass than an average human male and therefore would sink faster.
I think. I don't know. lol

This is all if we are talking biologically here. If this is a curse or something, then it's really up to you, right?

In Moon Called, the first volume of her werewolf-oriented urban fantasy Mercy Thompson series, Patricia Briggs makes the point that because werewolves are heavier than normal wolves (and, if I recall correctly, have thicker, more dense bones) they don't swim as well as the latter. In her werewolf mythos, drowning is a favorite method for werewolves who want to commit suicide without making it apparent that their death wasn't accidental.

Glad I didn't approach that logically for nothing, then. :D

I revisted this issue in my latest book. I do indeed drown a werewolf. While mine are magical beings able to heal any wound, I reasoned that their ability to be wounded means they do have normal biological processes, but they were accelerated by magical means. So drowning a werewolf would mean it would just regenerate and come back to life, the same as if it got an arm chopped off, right?

Well, I also reasoned that cutting off their head or burning them would produce permanent death. Like a zombie. If that were the case repeatedly drowning a werewolf might just result in enough brain damage to keep them down.

It was as interesting enough concept that I ran with it. I mean how often have we seen a super-powered werewolf held down in the water until they stop kicking?

C.E., that works for me! :-)

It's been noted above, depends on the mythology used. I've read frequently in stories that lycanthropes (including werewolves) are allergic to silver and it poisons them. Thus wounds made by silver remain where common wounds heal quickly. Silver remaining in the body continues to poison. But if the heart is completely destroyed or the head is cut off (and not quickly reattached) they will also die.

But some books go completely with the silver thing... depends on the chosen mythology.

One notes, incidentally, that the mythology where werewolves are vulnerable to silver is called "modern Hollywood." Other creatures, in various folklores, were vulnerable to silver, but not werewolves. (They also had nothing to do with the moon, either.)

Well some did. Lycanthropes appar all over the world in folklore. Weretigers, werelions etc. all show up. The Native Americans had a skin walker and they also spirit animals that a person could sometimes "become".

Silver shows up in a lot of European folklore as sovereign against evil.

Yes, but the evils it is sovereign against aren't werewolves. Unless you have something specific in mind that I haven't heard of?

The earliest reference I'm sure of is the Beast of Gévaudan. The "werewolf" that terrorized the Gévaudan area in central France around 1764. A farmer Jean Chastel killed "it" (he killed a large wolf...or as was told "wolf-like beast) with a silver bullet.

In Greek folklore were-beasts are tied in with witches and witches could be killed with silver.

Of course in Eastern Europe vampires were also susceptible to silver so there could be some cross over there.

I wasn't really disagreeing i was just saying that silver has been used as the "pure" metal against evil in folklore for a long time.