The Malazan Fallen discussion

Chapter thirteen discussion thread

Hmmm...looks like a few more coins just popped off. Granted, Rhulad was getting lucky - but I'm not sure this fares well for the Oponn idea.

Ahh, you should be working not reading chapter 13. Then again, I should be working and not replying to your comments.

I've started lunch early :)

Out of the white
Out of the snow's worldly fray
We are the sword's wolves
Who haunt all fate

Interesting given our discussion previously on the the Jheck.

Yes - and also interesting that there are THREE stanzas to that poem.

'I asked you a question, Nifadas!' Quillas said, his face darkening.
'Answering it,' the First Eunuch said slowly, fixing his small eyes on the prince, 'makes implicit the matter is worth considering. It is not.

Slapped down. I am really liking Nifadas, lamost as much as i dislike Quillas.

'The commercial core, the heart of the financial system which drives all of Lether, its every citizen, its very way of looking at the world. The Tolls are not simply coins stacked high in some secret vault. Not just traders howling their numbers before the day's close. The Tolls are the roots of our civilization, the fibres reaching out to infest everything. Everything.'

LOL now if that isn't a great description of how Wall Street affects events I don't know what is.

She could feel her anger rising. 'I always believed freedom concerned the granted right to be different, without fear of repression.'
'A lofty notion, but you won't find it in the real world. We have hammered freedom into a sword. And if you won't be like us we will use that sword to kill you one by one, until your spirit is broken.'

A brilliant statement showing the true nature of the Letherii.

And Rhulad finally gets what he always wanted - Mayen (Ka-ching) - but it can hardly be called love.

Udinaas sees the union as a parody of Letherii politics-

Moreover, your monstrosity has become something you now wear on your flesh. And now what had to arrive. Letherii gold yields to its natural inclination. Now, Letherii gold rapes this Tiste Edur. Ha.


Udinaas also sees an opportunity to free Feather Witch

‘And how do you plan on freeing me, Udinaas?’
‘We are going to war, Feather Witch. The Tiste Edur will wage war against Lether...’
...‘The point is, when the Edur march south, we will be going with them.’

And so find opportunity to escape over to the Letherii


Worse, they have numerical superiority—’
‘Hardly,’ Rhulad cut in, smiling. ‘The Edur possess new allies, Hull Beddict, as you shall soon discover

What "allies" are the Tiste Edur relying on to counter the Letherii numerical superiority? Perhaps it has something to do with the dragons and all these wyvals flying about in Udinaas' dreams

‘Seren Pedac, you must have realized by now that the Tiste Edur worship dragons. Father Shadow, the three Daughters, they are all draconic. Or Soletaken...'
'...I fear for Hannan Mosag, for I think he has grasped a dragon’s tail – perhaps more than figuratively. This could prove too much, even for him and his K’risnan.’

And Hull formally defects to the Edur. His revenge on his home country.

‘I know the details you need, Emperor, the location and complement of every garrison, every frontier encampment. I know their tactics, the manner in which armies are arrayed for battle. The way sorcery is employed. I know where the food and water caches are hidden – these are the military repositories, and they are massive.’

War is all but declared

Nifadas slowly tilted his head. ‘Is this a declaration of war?’ he asked in a soft voice.
‘We shall announce our intention with deeds, not words, First Eunuch. We have spoken.

In other words - you'll know we are at war when we are raping and pillaging your towns across the border.


Gerun also has some insight in that thug brain of his on the coming war. Basically he says it doesn't matter whether the Edur win the military campaign or not. So long as there are Letherii alive they will still dominate with their system of economics

‘Some can die. Some will. Indeed, unlikely as it is, we may all die. But, unless the victors leave naught but ashes in their wake, the heart will beat on. Its roots will find new flesh. The emperor may have his demons of the seas, but we possess a monster unimaginably vast, and it devours. And what it cannot devour, it will smother, or starve. Win or lose, the Tiste Edur still lose.’

And all the while Rhulad is skirting the edge of madness. In his moments of lucidity he appears to cleverer than he is - is he being controlled by the Crippled god like a puppet. He tries to convince himself otherwise.

'He only whispers advice, helps me choose my words. Orders my thoughts – but the thoughts are mine. They must be. I am not a fool. I possess my own cleverness. Yes, that is it. He but whispers confidence.’

Yeah, right.

But later on he starts referring to himself in the plural

‘You are useful to us, slave. We will need ... reminding ... again. At unexpected times. And that is what shall you do for us. That, and food and drink at proper times.’
‘Yes, master.’
‘Now, stand in attendance, whilst we rest our eyes for a time.’
‘Of course, master.’


As Udinaas observes

Rhulad had been dead too long, too long to escape some kind of spiritual damage. If the emperor was to be a tool, then he was a flawed one.

Just like the CG likes all his tools.


Udinaas also comes out with an uncomfortable truth

‘He whispers in my mind. He tells me what to say. He makes me cleverer than I am. What does that make me, Udinaas? What does that make me?’
‘A slave.’
‘But I am Tiste Edur.’
‘Yes, Emperor.’
A scowl. ‘The gift of a life returned.’
‘You are Indebted.’

OUCH

I also notice the Tarthenal have 5 entities they worship

And the Tarthenal their five Seregahl, the Wrath Wielders.

I wonder if these are the same five trying to break free from the Azath house in Ch4

The urgency was a silent scream that squeezed blood from the Azath tower. Five kin creatures, taken and held since the time of the K’Chain Che’Malle, were almost within reach of the surface.
And this was not good, for they were Toblakai.

Only Udinass can speak like this to Rhulad. I don't care for how he is so omni prescient.

What "allies" are the Tiste Edur relying on to counter the Letherii numerical superiority? Perhaps it has something to do with the dragons and all these wyvals flying about in Udinaas' dreams

I assumed it meant he is calling on all the Tiste Andii ghosts to come play. Since he controls them with the sword.

Yea there's a line somewhere in this chapter that confirmed it was the wraiths. They are spreading out and numerous.

Lee wrote: "I assumed it meant he is calling on all the Tiste Andii ghosts to come play. Since he controls them with the sword. "

I would have thought they were old slaves rather than "new allies"

Ialso thought they might be demons.

They are both. But rhulad is using them in a way that no other Edur has. So he is just calling them allies and yes, there are demons in there with them.

David Sven wrote: "I also notice the Tarthenal have 5 entities they worship

And the Tarthenal their five Seregahl, the Wrath Wielders.

I wonder if these are the same five trying to break free from the Azath house i..."

Oho, that's an idea.

Being Rhulad's confidant is going to be really unpleasant. But when Udinaas makes his bid for freedom, he's sure going to know some valuable information, whatever it is he's planning. I like how Rhulad and the other Edur (except maybe Trull) just see him as a slave and never remember he might use what they tell him for his own agenda.

It sounds like Rhulad and Mayen hadn't had sex after all. Rhulad had wanted to, but Mayen either didn't or was holding to Tiste Edur honor. Udinaas is too detached to sympathize with her. Maybe Feather Witch isn't.

Silvio wrote: "It sounds like Rhulad and Mayen hadn't had sex after all. Rhulad had wanted to, but Mayen either didn't or was holding to Tiste Edur honor."

I think she was definitely flirting and maybe fantasizing or maybe just enjoying the attention but it sounds like she would never have betrayed her betrothal

Yep. She's young and sexual but uniniated, Rhulad's strutting was flattering but nothing more.

I really don't like Feather Witch. She's a slave too, but her level of arrogance exceeds all but maybe Rhulad in this chapter.

I had some other thoughts last night while reading, but I forgot them and none of the discussion so far has jogged my memory. I may have to skim back over.

Rob, I don't like FW either. She kind of reminds me of Felisin.

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "Rob, I don't like FW either. She kind of reminds me of Felisin."

Yeah. That's a good comparison. I sort of hope bad things happen to her. Like Felsin.

I'd like to hear more about what you see as similar between Feather Witch and Felesin. They are both young, female, have first names that start with F, and have unpleasant attitudes. Is that it?

I've been thinking more about the comparison between Feather Witch and Trull. Feather Witch's antagonist is Udinas. Trull's is Rhulad. Both start from a position of superiority. Trull is superior because he is the older brother, and he is blooded. Feather Witch is superior because, while a slave from birth, she is at least not indebted as a Letheri. Also Feather Witch seems to hold a higher position as a slave because of her relative closeness to Mayen. This makes her superior in the same way that house slaves thought themselves superior to field slaves. Finally, Feather Witch is superior because of her innate power with her tiles.

The next point of similarity is that both Trull and Feather Witch cling onto the old ways. Trull is very concerned with doing things the Edur way, and much of his objection to Rhulad is because Rhulad does not hold to those ways. Rhulad is presumptuous in his attentions to Mayen, Fear's betrothed. He's presumptuous in putting himself forward even before he is blooded. And then he is extremely presumptuous in declaring himself Emperor, and insisting that his followers veer from Edur tradition, and Edur gods.

Feather Witch also finds Udinas' attentions presumptuous. He is not adhering to tradition, and this makes her very uneasy. By challenging her received ideas of superiority, Udinas threatens to topple her vision of the world, and its that vision that makes her condition as a slave tolerable. On top of that, Udinas has also intruded into her sphere as a seer. Thus, he is not only threatening her social position, but he's also becoming her superior in terms of his visions and dreamwalking. On top of all that, with Rhulad adopting Udinas as his personal slave, Udinas has also jumped in the slave hierarchy to top house slave. These things taken together prove to be too much for Feather Witch to handle.

The interesting thing is the difference that this shines on their characters. Trull manages to keep a somewhat open mind, and he deals with the changes with a measure of compassion. Feather Witch closes her mind and tries to deny the changes. This means that Trull shows some capacity for growth, while it looks like Feather Witch is simply on her way to a breaking point.

By the way, Felesin is not like either of these people. When her calamity came, she didn't try to cling to the old ways and traditions. Instead, she adapted as best she could. She sold herself, body and soul, through prostitution and drugs, in an effort to survive for her, Heboric, and Baudin. Unfortunately, Heboric and Baudin both resented and rejected her for her efforts. She tried to become the whore with the heart of gold, but nobody was having it, and instead she became embittered and vengeful.

I have FW and Felisin be the same in their capacity for clinging to negative energy of anger and hate, self-centeredness, and closed from humanity. My main takeaway from SE is who is able to hold onto love, compassion and humanity in this world, and operate from a moral standpoint of unity and goodness for the better of living beings? I know there are many other themes but for me, right now in my life experience, it all boils down to open hearts and open minds. Compassion. Felisin and FW are both young, but I see them closing off and therefore even more self-involved beyond the natural and normal development of psychological growth.

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "I have FW and Felisin be the same in their capacity for clinging to negative energy of anger and hate, self-centeredness, and closed from humanity. My main takeaway from SE is who is able to hold o..."

Yeah, I agree. Practically all the characters have been through some kind of trauma, and a big part of the characterization is whether they respond to it with compassion or selfishness. Whiskeyjack would be an extreme example of the compassionate ones, and Felisin definitely goes with selfishness. I don't have a very clear picture of what's happening in Feather Witch's mind most of the time, though. Chapter 16 spoiler (view spoiler)[ But in this last scene, where she's taking out her bitterness on Udinaas, that's definitely a Felisin reaction - though she also shows more self-awareness than Felisin, and none of her Stockholm syndrome so far. (hide spoiler)]

@Duffy - I like your comparison of Trull and Feather Witch - Both definitely trying to resist the tides of change. While Feather Witch rails at the tide, Trull is letting it take him, but he is still not liking it.

What "allies" are the Tiste Edur relying on to counter the Letherii numerical superiority? Perhaps it has something to do with the dragons and all these wyvals flying about in Udinaas' dreams

I thought wyval and wraith which are with udinaas are basically to oppose edur but not aid them, because the wraith which was with udinaas definitely seems pissed off with the edur.Also wyval and wraith present with udinaas seem to be working with each other because the wraith mentions to udinaas himself that it would be better for udinaas to be close to be rhuald.So what i think is they may use udinaas against edur.

Awesome post from Duffy drawing some great comparisons between FW and Trull that I hadn't considered before. I also agree that the FW/Felisin comparison is pretty tenuous.

Felsisin was a young girl who lived an extremely sheltered life and was then suddenly thrown into a horrific position. She sold herself to try and protect people she cared about who only showed her disgust and anger in return. As a result she erected barriers around herself (both by being hostile to people and using drugs) for protection. FW is just a snobby, power-hungry bitch who has contempt for Udinaas when he's beneath her in social standing and resents him when he overtakes her.