Questioning Society discussion

Well, what IS the meaning of life?
Do we have a purpose?
Should we have a purpose?

"Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth."

--Monty Python

There is no meaning of life.
No purpose, either.
Why should we be so arrogant as to assume someone has given us a purpose.

Lauren wrote: "There is no meaning of life.
No purpose, either.
Why should we be so arrogant as to assume someone has given us a purpose. "

Did I say that? I asked "Do we have a purpose?" I never said whether we did or didn't, or if that someone gave us one.

And Lauren answered you. She didn't say anything about you in her post.

Charity wrote: "And Lauren answered you. She didn't say anything about you in her post."

Well she said "Why should we be so arrogant as to assume someone has given us a purpose."

I felt that it was aimed at me. But sorry to Lauren if it wasn't.

Maybe it was a general question? I don't think you should be so quick to jump to the defensive.

Charity wrote: "Maybe it was a general question? I don't think you should be so quick to jump to the defensive."

Bah, sorry. Bit of a habit in this group I guess :)

It's all good.

But, Lauren's question is interesting though. Why should we be so arrogant as to assume someone has given us a purpose? What makes us so special?

Well if we aren't special and there is no purpose...Can life have meaning at all?

Really, truly, what should we be doing with our lives?
I mean, sure, we could find a cure for cancer or write a novel. But, what do those things matter after we die? Our name will be written in History. Big whoop. We'll be dead, we can't enjoy that.

It was aimed to everyone who disagrees with it.

Why can't you give your life meaning, fill it with things that make you happy?

Immortality isn't something to aspire to, no one can have it.

Well, why do we have to be special? We aren't, just too smart for our own good.

Lauren wrote: "Why can't you give your life meaning, fill it with things that make you happy?"

I mean, you can try and give your life meaning. But as I said, once you die, what does it matter what you did in life, whether you were happy or not?

Well, it matters to you while you're alive. Why waste 80 years thinking nothing matters? It matter to other people, to future generations, to you. I could not go around thinking it's pointless. I give myself a point.

I would think that having immortality waiting would make this life even more pointless.

Lauren wrote: "I would think that having immortality waiting would make this life even more pointless. "

I agree. And what's the point of predestination?

Ninja wrote: "Really, truly, what should we be doing with our lives?
I mean, sure, we could find a cure for cancer or write a novel. But, what do those things matter after we die? Our name will be written in His..."

I think if you managed to find a cure for cancer, that would make quite a lot of difference to quite a lot of people.

Your life's meaning is what you bring to it.

to figure out lifes meaning.

TELL me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is but an empty dream ! —
For the soul is dead that slumbers,
And things are not what they seem.

Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Not enjoyment, and not sorrow,
Is our destined end or way ;
But to act, that each to-morrow
Find us farther than to-day.



I love Longfellow. These are the first 3 stanzas.

Whenever I see this discussion, I think of the book Jeremy Fink and the Meaning of Life. I don't know why though.

what is that book about?

The meaning of life is to live.

Milana wrote: "what is that book about?"


http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36...

Oh my gosh! I saw that book at the library, but I didn't get it. lol.

I think that wondering about the meaning of life is a waste of time. Life can't just have meaning. Meaning can only within context. Meaning only exists if there is someone to whom the thing in question has meaning. A better question is, "What does your life mean to you?" To make an analogy, the same word can mean different things in different languages; the meaning of the word only exists within the context of the language. Words don't have absolute meanings, because there is no such thing as absolute meaning.

Because we fear death, we desire a larger context for our lives than our own limited lifespans. This leads many people to religion, because God can give your life boundless meaning. But that just introduces infinite regress: What's the point of your life in heaven? What's the point of God's life? Etc. Whenever you ask "why" questions, you can always respond to the answers by repeating, "why?" You can always say, "Okay, but what's the meaning of that?" The only way to satisfactorily answer a "why" question is to establish a context. For me, my context is the world I live in, my family, my friends, and my descendents. I want to have a positive impact on the people I know, my children, and, if possible, the world at large.

Everyone should have dreams as noble as yours, Nathan. X)

It seems Heaven seemed pretty nice to think about if you were a slave in Egypt, but no one really thought about what would happen if you actually got there.

Has anyone ever noticed that the elderly tend to be more religious? And why? To make them feel better about dying soon.

Which is the same as life having meaning. I mean, if you believe in religion and heaven, then that would be the meaning of your life, to get there.

But the meaning of life doesn't have to be so BIG, you know? It's changing other people for the better, I think. Like the finding a cure for cancer thing. Do you know how many people's lives that would affect? Sheesh!

An afterlife robs people of meaning, because then there is no point in this life, if one is waiting.

An afterlife robs people of meaning, because then there is no point in this life, if one is waiting.

I agree totally. The idea of an infinite afterlife trivializes this one. The idea of a duty to an imaginary God trivializes the duty that you have to your family, friends, society and planet.

But he knows what will happen, even before you're born. He knows whether you will have faith in him or not, so life is just a sadistic exercise.

But He lets you CHOOSE what to do. Whether or not He knows, you choose everything you do. Don't you agree with that logic, Lauren, that you choose everything that you do, from what you say to what you wear?

I do, but as my world doesn't include God, it doesn't make much sense to ask me.

I heard a quote somewhere. Basically it was: "God made me an atheist."

"1345249 I heard a quote somewhere. Basically it was: "God made me an atheist." "

...and you are you to question his wisdom?"

Excellent quote.

The meaning of life is chocolate. Thread as been answered :)

Kyleism!

Chocolate sounds good right now!

Eureka! :P

Nah we need something else Lauren that doesn't work :P

If the purpose of life is to get to heaven, then what is the purpose of Heaven?

Richard wrote: "ah the old questions of god and divine plan-etc-it was all that that drove me to philosophy-going from Descartes to Hegel to Sartre-which brought me to the closed door of "self" and "other"-at 21 i..."

Dear Richard,

Yes. Just like that.

In fact, of all the "sacred writings" I've ever read, the Kena Upanishad is by far the best, quite possibly the only one really worth reading. Atheists can enjoy it for the poetry and for its analysis of the self/other question on purely philosophical grounds, or can even accept it as being "wisdom", since it more or less concludes that "Brahman is not the being that is worshipped of men". It describes Brahman as the instantaneous process of awareness.

There are translations I might like better, but online and free this one is pretty good:

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscr...

rgb

rgb

Jill wrote: ""Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source o..."

I LOVE THAT SONG!!!! Eric Idle is GREAT!!!

Nathan wrote: "If the purpose of life is to get to heaven, then what is the purpose of Heaven?

To worship Jesus for eternity. Gee, that just sounds like a blast."

Well it depends what is considered worship. I've heard that you can worship God in everything you do (well obviously if it's a sin then you can't). So you could pretty much do anything.

Ninja wrote: "Well it depends what is considered worship. I've heard that you can worship God in everything you do (well obviously if it's a sin then you can't). So you could pretty much do anything."

That sounds...boring as hell (or heaven, as the case may be). That means I cannot look at Hugh Jackman, or Johnny Depp, or Zooey Deschanel, or a new car, or a neighbor's house...etc.

Ninja wrote: "Well it depends what is considered worship. I've heard that you can worship God in everything you do (well obviously if it's a sin then you can't). So you could pretty much do anything."

Anything but hang out with your loved ones who failed to make the cut and ended up in hell, that is. You can sit around doing pretty much anything that includes missing them for all eternity and really enjoying yourself knowing that they're being held in a state that is basically indescribable pain, the sort that ordinarily lasts only a few seconds as you're dying in the real world. What fun!

Then let's see, what's left? Sex? Well, there is no marriage in heaven (until death do us part, and what would you do with all of those thrice remarried widows who now have three reborn husbands). Sex is about as much fun as it is possible to have, per minute, but without marriage it seems like it would be a sin, wouldn't it? So sex is out.

Learning things is a great pleasure, but what is there to learn, and what are you going to learn with? Either you are granted preternatural knowledge of all things, in which case there's nothing to learn, or you'll have some sort of finite capacity, just like you have here on earth. Of course here that capacity is linked to a physical brain. Do you take the limitations of your earthly body with you into heaven? If yes, heaven will suck for the mentally retarded and physically defective. If no, then you become somebody else, because you "are" your brain.

Working is one of the greatest pleasures of life. Working for a living, accomplishing something useful. Doing anything you like, of course, is being on vacation -- for eternity. I don't think you have any concept of just how long eternity is, and how infinitely bored you will be if there isn't anything to learn, any sort of useful work, no sex, where you and every single person you meet is missing somebody who is in hell being tormented by unquenchable eternal fire for some piddling insult to an infinitely petty infinite being.

Sure is a good thing that this is entirely a wishful thinking myth, isn't it?

You want to find heaven? Look around you. Want to find hell? Do the same. Your life right now, if you are fortunate enough to be reading these words, has most of heaven in it. Work, surprises, things to learn, love, sex, great food, security, and comfort. If you are less fortunate, or if you squander it in the prison of your own mind, it can be hell.

Your choice, but you should make it realizing that by far the most plausible truth is that this one chance is all you get to experience any part of either one. You personally do not remember anything from before your birth, so there is a half-eternity where you did not exist. Every bit of your experience suggests that a half-eternity of nonexistence will begin the instant you die, it is why humans (no matter how religious) fear death and generate myths to comfort them with the fantasy that this will not happen.

rgb

rgb wrote: "Anything but hang out with your loved ones who failed to make the cut and ended up in hell, that is. You can sit around doing pretty much anything that includes missing them for all eternity and really enjoying yourself knowing that they're being held in a state that is basically indescribable pain, the sort that ordinarily lasts only a few seconds as you're dying in the real world. What fun!

Then let's see, what's left? Sex? Well, there is no marriage in heaven (until death do us part, and what would you do with all of those thrice remarried widows who now have three reborn husbands). Sex is about as much fun as it is possible to have, per minute, but without marriage it seems like it would be a sin, wouldn't it? So sex is out.

There is no pain or suffering in Heaven. I don't know what it's going to be like, but I know that much.
Well, the "till death do us part" is not in the Bible, somebody made it up and it just sort of stuck. I don't think the Bible really says if you're still married in Heaven.


Learning things is a great pleasure, but what is there to learn, and what are you going to learn with? Either you are granted preternatural knowledge of all things, in which case there's nothing to learn, or you'll have some sort of finite capacity, just like you have here on earth. Of course here that capacity is linked to a physical brain. Do you take the limitations of your earthly body with you into heaven? If yes, heaven will suck for the mentally retarded and physically defective. If no, then you become somebody else, because you "are" your brain.

No, I'm pretty sure your early body stays here. Also, as I said there is no pain and suffering and everyone is healed, so there wouldn't be any 'special' kids there.



Working is one of the greatest pleasures of life. Working for a living, accomplishing something useful.

You are so right! God WANTS people to work. He doesn't want to just give them everything they ask for. I mean, then there really would be nothing to do in life. Hey God, I want a Porsche *appears in driveway*.



I don't think you have any concept of just how long eternity is, and how infinitely bored you will be if there isn't anything to learn, any sort of useful work, no sex, where you and every single person you meet is missing somebody who is in hell being tormented by unquenchable eternal fire for some piddling insult to an infinitely petty infinite being."

No, I don't really know how long eternity is. Do you? I have thought about it though. It's difficult to grasp, the thought of eternity. But I know there's no pain or suffering in Heaven. I've actually heard, but I'm not sure if I believe it, that all your early pleasures and memories go away. It's like you're a new being altogether. But I can't say myself whether or not you keep your memories or not.

Ninja wrote: "I've actually heard, but I'm not sure if I believe it, that all your early pleasures and memories go away. It's like you're a new being altogether. But I can't say myself whether or not you keep your memories or not."

Heard from who? Who makes this stuff up?d

Also, if "all your early pleasures and memories go away", isn't that kind of like "death" or "reincarnation"? I am my memories, my experiences. Strip them all away, and what is left?

Nothing that is "me", for sure.

As far as grasping eternity, I'm a physicist and mathematician. I know as much about infinity as anyone. The point about an infinite line is that every point is in the middle. A semi-infinite line is a bit more difficult, and is rather asymmetric.

To return to your earlier question about time, meditate upon this:

God, if God exists, is timeless. Time is perceived as changes in entropy. Entropy is the log of the missing information, but for God there is no missing information. The entropic state of God cannot change. God cannot change, and cannot learn. God is literally incapable of experiencing time and also being God. God cannot be surprised. God is not free. God cannot choose. God cannot act. All of these things are dynamic, and they involve changing state, the consideration of alternatives, uncertainty, decision making in the face of incomplete information. God's choices are all inevitable and there cannot be alternatives.

For God to experience time, it has to do it as a mortal being, bound to time, in a state of incomplete information, because time's arrow is defined only by information flow. Microscopic physics is time reversal invariant; a movie run backwards obeys all laws of microscopic physics, it is just statistically unlikely because events proceed from a relatively ordered state to one of the many, many more alternatives that are relatively disordered.

A good book on intro physics will help you understand that, or I can probably find you some good links on the web. If you care to.

The point is, that if you really want to think about eternity, you might begin by learning something about physics and time and mathematics, where it is possible to actually work out an understanding of it, instead of imagining yourself sitting around 10^3210! years from now and still having "fun" on your eternal spring break...

rgb

There is no pain or suffering in Heaven.

But rgb has just demonstrated how this is not possible. If you knew that your loved ones were in hell, would that make you happy? If you are sadistic and care about no one, I guess you could be happy in heaven, but you probably wouldn't get there in the first place.

In order for there to be no suffering in heaven, one of the following things must be true, as far as I can tell:

1. You do not care about anyone, so their suffering in hell doesn't bother you.

2. You are reborn with no memories, no awareness of hell or of anything from your life on Earth.

#1 seems unlikely. #2 is exactly like death. The "you" that you are will cease to exist when you die, because everything that makes you you will be wiped away. This is exactly what Christians rail against when they talk about the promise of an afterlife and the meaninglessness of an atheistic viewpoint. Also, there go all your dreams of reuniting with loved ones in heaven. Also, what of all the stories people tell of praying to and communing with deceased relatives while still alive? Of your dead uncle watching over you from heaven? If their brains were wiped clean when they died, then obviously this is all bullshit.

Well, the "till death do us part" is not in the Bible, somebody made it up and it just sort of stuck. I don't think the Bible really says if you're still married in Heaven.

What if your husband/wife is in hell? Or what if you die before you get married? Are you allowed to have sex in heaven? Can you get married in heaven? Is there a good singles scene there? What's the male:female ratio like? What if you're gay? Can a gay person get into heaven at all, and, if so, can they have sex?

Also, as I said there is no pain and suffering and everyone is healed, so there wouldn't be any 'special' kids there.


Well, this works for obvious problems like having no legs, etc. But what about the little quirks that make you who you are? The gap between my teeth, will that be "fixed" in heaven? My attention to detail and organization that borders on OCD but isn't really debilitating, will that be "fixed"? If everything about me that's non-standard is corrected in heaven, don't I cease to be me? Don't we all just become facsimiles of each other then?

Dan wrote: "What if your husband/wife is in hell? Or what if you die before you get married? Are you allowed to have sex in heaven? Can you get married in heaven? Is there a good singles scene there? What's the male:female ratio like? What if you're gay? Can a gay person get into heaven at all, and, if so, can they have sex?

I said I don't know what Heaven will be like. Who knows, there could be sex and marriage in Heaven. But I think that once you get to Heaven, you won't want to do things that are wrong. I'm not saying sex or marriage are wrong, but you wouldn't want to cheat on whoever you were having sex with. You're desires would change to those that could only be pure. Gay people CAN get into Heaven, but if someone is gay/lesbian and they believe in God, then they know that it's against the Bible. If they struggle with it but try to change, God knows what is truly in their heart when they die. If they really believe in God and the Bible then they know that homosexuality is wrong.


Well, this works for obvious problems like having no legs, etc. But what about the little quirks that make you who you are? The gap between my teeth, will that be "fixed" in heaven? My attention to detail and organization that borders on OCD but isn't really debilitating, will that be "fixed"? If everything about me that's non-standard is corrected in heaven, don't I cease to be me? Don't we all just become facsimiles of each other then?"


Well, I don't even know if we will have human bodies in Heaven. We may be some kind of soul-spirit, but I honestly do not know. I don't know how unique we will be or if our appearances will change.

But I think that once you get to Heaven, you won't want to do things that are wrong.

So I won't be me in heaven, I'll be someone else with different opinions and thoughts and desires. Boy, that sounds like a lot of fun.

If God can make me not want to do bad things, why doesn't he just do it now? Why wait until I'm dead? You're going to say, "Because he gives you free will," but what's the point of free will if he's just going to take it away in heaven? And this lack of free will is what makes heaven better than Earth? So, is free will a gift or a curse?

Dan wrote: "But I think that once you get to Heaven, you won't want to do things that are wrong.

So I won't be me in heaven, I'll be someone else with different opinions and thoughts and desires. Boy, that sounds like a lot of fun.

If God can make me not want to do bad things, why doesn't he just do it now? Why wait until I'm dead? You're going to say, "Because he gives you free will," but what's the point of free will if he's just going to take it away in heaven? And this lack of free will is what makes heaven better than Earth? So, is free will a gift or a curse?"

No, I think you'll still have free will in Heaven. But your desires might change. But I mean, I can't know for sure what is going to happen once we get there. But we'll be happy.