Catholic Readers discussion

Can anyone recommend a book on marital submission.Been talking to a protestant friend about a book she's reading, but I'd like to read something from a Catholic point of view.
Thanks in advance.

I do not know whether this will be about Marital Submission. But these are some good books on the sacrament of Marriage. Try By Love Refined and Marriage: The Mystery of Faithful Love. Both are written by the renowned Catholic thinkers and the Catholic wife and husband.

Three to Get Married by Fulton Sheen is a fantastic examination of the Catholic understanding of God's role in a marriage.

Chosen and Cherished by Kimberly Hahn.

Thank you for the recommends, folks. I actually have Three to get Married, By Love Refined and Chosen and Cherished...... I'd have to go back and look but I don't remember them having too many practical applications....I'll have to go back and look ..... Has anyone read How to Change your Husband by Friend of Medjugore (I am aware of Terry's group and their story).

Men, Women, and the Mystery of Love by Edward Sri has a list of questions at the end of each chapter to help with understanding each topic touched upon. It's a practical guide on marriage, a meditation on JPII's Love and Responsibility. Could be helpful.

I wrote 'Chronicles of a Catholic Housewife, Forty Years toward the Promised Land' in response to the idea of love and submission. I am a cradle Catholic from Central America in a 45 year marriage to a South East Asian man from a Muslim culture. Our Catholic daughter is in a ten year marriage to a Jewish man.
Our secret? Submitting to the will of God. Priests, family, and plain common sense told us that our marriages would be difficult. But what can one do when God decides to conduct an interfaith, social experiment in our family. We can either complain and say, NO! Or we can say, Yes! Thank you, Lord, and go along for the ride!

Encíclica Casti Connubii del papa Pio XI

Courage to be Married. Excellent read in general, but some chapters cover the topic as well.

Ephesians 5.

Ask Your Husband: A Wife’s Guide to True Femininity

Steph Gordon's book, "Ask Your Husband" :) https://www.timothyjgordon.com/public...

The Case for Patriarchy is also excellent! :)
https://www.timothyjgordon.com/public...

Jacinta wrote: "The Case for Patriarchy is also excellent! :)
https://www.timothyjgordon.com/public..."

On the thought, Jacinta, "that married men are patriarchs who should relate to their wives as Christ relates to His Bride," does the book state that men should be willing to die for their wives?

Does the book note that the patriarchy of the time (the religious and political leaders) crucified the Lord?

Yes, he does say that men should be willing to die for their wives, many times actually. He explains the family as the Church has always taught: that the husband is the Priest of the Household (the Head).
He also writes about "Patriarchy" as understood by the Catholic Faith; Submission of wives to their husbands.. strong, courageous and holy male leadership in the family and in society... quite literally GOD Himself as being the Head. THE Patriarchy is God.
The author, Tim, quite literally "makes the case" for this in his book, using not only the Bible, but Fathers of the Church, Popes, ect ect. It's excellent!

Jacinta wrote: "Yes, he does say that men should be willing to die for their wives, many times actually. He explains the family as the Church has always taught: that the husband is the Priest of the Household (the..."

I'm glad, Jacinta, that you enjoy the book so much. But I must confess that I don't quite follow the logic.

I have always understood that as Christ submitted to the will of the Father, so must husbands, wives and all of us also submit to the will of God. It would be confusing for a wife to submit to the will of her husband while also submitting to the will of God.

But that is just me.
Take care.

That link above seems to be a treasure trove for nutjobs..lol.

Libin wrote: "That link above seems to be a treasure trove for nutjobs..lol."

I didn't want to say it, Libin, but I think you are right!

This is a thread on Catholic Marital Submission. If you guys can't take it, then that's your problem. :)

Jacinta wrote: "This is a thread on Catholic Marital Submission. If you guys can't take it, then that's your problem. :)"

The question as I see it, Jacinta, is 'Catholic marital submission' to whom? Christianity is clear that we should submit ONLY to the will of God. Submitting to the will of another human being is a form of idolatry which is a grave sin.

Yeah that's not what the Catholic Church teaches at all :) Which is why I recommended Tim's book, because he quotes from Popes, Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, the Catechism and especially the Bible that clearly state this.
Cris asked for books that spoke about the CATHOLIC point of view on marital submission, ergo, I gave her some books that quote extensively from Official Church documents, the Bible, Fathers of the Church, Popes and so on. It is Cris's decision to take it or leave it, that's totally fine, since these are simply suggestions of books that I have found to be very clear and very detailed in Church teaching on the subject.
Not sure why this is such an issue for you?

Jacinta wrote: "Not sure why this is such an issue for you?."

As I stated before, Jacinta, idolatry is a grave sin. A woman must resist the temptation of idolizing her husband.

You know the marital vows, Jacinta:
"I, _____, take you, _____, to be my wife/husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and cherish always."

The couple must not try to dominate each other. Instead, they take a vow to love each other as children of God.

God bless you, Jacinta.

It seems that you are very confused about what I'm talking about.

Jacinta wrote: "It seems that you are very confused about what I'm talking about."

Yes indeed, Jacinta, what you say is very confusing.

So please clarify. Should a woman submit to the will of her husband or to the will of God? It has to be one or the other.

A woman cannot have two masters. Who is her lord? God or her husband?

According to the Catholic Church, a wife who submits to her husband in all but sin is submitting to God. Its the same like children obeying their parents (The 4th Commandment) is obeying God, through their parents.
As I said multiple times before, this is what the CHURCH says. There are tons to Church Fathers giving commentary on the Bible concerning this, as well as Papal Documents / Encyclicals, and the Bible itself that all said that the wife must submit to her husband.
St. Paul is a huge proponent of this.
Just as Christ is the Head of the Church, the husband is the head of the family (just like priests take the place of Christ, in a smaller way the husband takes the place of Christ in the family). A family is a hierarchy, just like the Church, with the husband at the head. Meaning that the wife is under the head. But again, the Church says in tons of places how this doesn't mean the husband is given any free reign to rule like a tyrant, or lead his wife to sin. Tim writes how they are to be best friends and lovers.

Some places where you can read about the Church's firm stand on this are:

The Bible: Eph 5: 21 - 33 "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord: Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church.... So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself..... This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular love his wife as himself: and let the wife fear her husband.... "

Pope Leo XIII encyclical "Arcanum Divinae", https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xi...

There are many, many gems in this one, but here's just one quote from #11, "The husband is the chief of the family and the head of the wife. The woman, because she is flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone, must be subject to her husband and obey him; not, indeed, as a servant, but as a companion, so that her obedience shall be wanting in neither honor nor dignity. Since the husband represents Christ, and since the wife represents the Church, let there always be, both in him who commands and in her who obeys, a heaven-born love guiding both in their respective duties."

Pope Pius XI, encyclical "Casti Connubii" numbers 26-28 (there's more in this document as well) https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x...
"Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that "order of love," as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: "Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church."
This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband's every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.
Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact ."

Church Father, St. John Chrysostom, his Homily 20 on Ephesians https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230... is very interesting. "For if he who resists these external authorities, those of governments, I mean, withstands the ordinance of God Romans 13:2, much more does she who submits not herself to her husband. Such was God's will from the beginning." "(Then speaking to husbands) You have seen the measure of obedience, hear also the measure of love. Would you have your wife obedient unto you, as the Church is to Christ? Take then yourself the same provident care for her, as Christ takes for the Church. Yea, even if it shall be needful for you to give your life for her, yea, and to be cut into pieces ten thousand times, yea, and to endure and undergo any suffering whatever — refuse it not. Though you should undergo all this, yet will you not, no, not even then, have done anything like Christ."
The whole letters is really beautiful.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent on Matrimony, https://www.saintsbooks.net/books/The... "Names Of This Sacrament:
The word matrimony is derived from the fact that the principal object which a female should propose to herself
in marriage is to become a mother; or from the fact that to a mother it belongs to conceive, bring forth and train
her offspring.
It is also called wedlock (conjugium) from joining together, because a lawful wife is united to her husband, as it
were, by a common yoke.
It is called nuptials, because, as St. Ambrose observes, the bride veiled her face through modesty -- a custom
which would also seem to imply that she was to be subject and obedient to her husband. " and further down, "let wives never forget that next to God they are to love
their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian
piety, a willing and ready obedience."


There's soooo much more I can post but I really don't have the time right now, especially since I need to get ready for Thanksgiving for tomorrow. But I hope this makes it clear. Tim's book has hundreds and hundreds of footnotes from even more Church sources that I am sure you will find interesting if you wish to look deeper, even if you disagree, its very interesting to hear what the Church has to say about this very important issue. It's worth reading just to hear the Churches whole point on the matter. There are many quotes that go deeper on what it means for the husbands to love and care for their wives, ect ect.
Even though I am a cradle Catholic, I am still learning the Catholic Faith every day - its so beautiful to be able to dive into the Teachings of the Church on topics that I had never before heard of until now. I don't judge others if they do not know of it, for I had not known of it until a few years either. It's not a topic that is much talked about in this light.

Jacinta wrote: "According to the Catholic Church, a wife who submits to her husband in all but sin is submitting to God. Its the same like children obeying their parents (The 4th Commandment) is obeying God, throu..."

Thank you, Jacinta, for spelling out your point of view.

I think the key is "a wife who submits to her husband in all but sin is submitting to God." Sadly, we are ALL sinners, including our husbands. That is why we need to ALWAYS submit to the will of God.

Yes sometimes, the will of the husband coincides with the will of God. And Our Lord often touches us through those we love. Our faith is full of stories of women like Saint Monica who prayed for the conversion of her son St. Augustine. But as I see it, it is not correct to say it was St. Monica's will for her son that prevailed. Rather both saints submitted to the will of God.

It is nice dialoguing with you, Jacinta. In the spirit of the season, I am grateful for your thoughts.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

Carmen wrote: "Jacinta wrote: "According to the Catholic Church, a wife who submits to her husband in all but sin is submitting to God. Its the same like children obeying their parents (The 4th Commandment) is ob..."

This is a couple of years later, but I just have to say that the point you're missing is this is not "Jacinta's point of view". It is the firm teaching of the Church. We do not have the luxury of inventing our "points of view" on matters of Faith and Doctrine. Keep in mind God uses nature and the circumstances of the physical, created world to reveal His will to us. Previous posts made reference to kids being subject to their parents. Are they not subject to God because they're subject to their parents?

The Church believes rightly that the husband being the head of the family is part of the nature of creation, much like the boiling and freezing point of water, or sex being intrinsically tied to procreation. This is something that just is. To the extent that we accept and participate in this nature, that is the extent that we cooperate in God's will and plan for His creation. Most of us don't have a direct line to God. He reveals His will through his creation, and we become sensitive to His will through our reception to grace through the sacraments, and depth of our prayer life. Being submissive to the will of another is not worshipping them, and it is not idolatry. Saying "I only obey God, not man" is a protestant idea that has led to the near-infinite fracture of the Church.