Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Orpheus, who dominated Book 10, finds out that indeed Hell hath no fury... I was sorry to see him die; I was just getting to know and enjoy him. And I'm not alone; the birds, beasts, trees, even the rocks mourn his death. But at least he gets reunited with Eurydice. Does that count as a happy ending? If so, what is the lesson we are to take from this myth?

(At least Bacchus doesn't take Orpheus's murder lying down.)

Then we find another myth which warns us not to toy with the gods, but with a twist. Midas is granted one wish, but he chooses foolishly and is headed for death. But this time we find, unusually, that the gods, who can be cruel and merciless, can also be merciful; when Midas confesses his error and begs for mercy, he actually gets it. I can't offhand recall another myth where the gods reversed themselves in this way.

Everyman wrote: " I can't offhand recall another myth where the gods reversed themselves in this way...."

I started to respond that Venus did something somewhat similar about accepting, rather than persecuting, Psyche after Cupid received sanction of their marriage from Jupiter, with Psyche even receiving the ambrosia of eternal life. Then, I realized this story isn't in Ovid!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_an...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/cap/

Midas is a such a modern myth, the power of desire gone wrong, all the I me mine berserk..so the saying goes, the gods punish us giving us our own desires...dreadful!
On Orpheus, most heroes of aniquity are sadly tragic, as if to complete a movement or something, so the most noble goes out bad, as in Jesus Christ..I think it's all a mystery paradox..testing the boundaries, so goes for any kind of suffering and nonsensical cruel and tragic things that goes on down here on Earth..

Most definitely!

Patrice wrote: "Be careful what you wish for...you may get it."

That's certainly part of it. But is that all? Or is what you wish for the problem? Would the Greeks and Romans have seen it more as a condemnation of foolish wishes, as a condemnation of excess generally (remember Moderation!), or as a condemnation of greed and love of money?

I like to think that the myth may have more layers to it than just the obvious. Of course, that could just be wishful thinking.

Yes indeed, as a matter of fact, (me and the Vedas) in Vedic science and in the Rig Veda more particularly, desire is the seed of Creatio, the material world, the self and selfish terms of life as we know it. I agree that selfless desire or righteous, measured desire is ideal for a virtuous life towards perfection. A type of hell is described as having all you wish for and then saturation instead of satisfaction, so yes again measure including some vinegar to taste sweeter things. In sum we are but blind guessers so we need guidelines for achieving the good, less passionate, sober, higher and sophisticated or acquainted with Sophia or wisdom. It is loosing layers until the essence is achieved, a long road and work, the Great Work of the alchemists. Approximately...

Everyman wrote: "Orpheus, who dominated Book 10, finds out that indeed Hell hath no fury...he gets reunited with Eurydice. Does that count as a happy ending?"

I've read another version of the myth, in which Orpheus succeeded in bringing Eurydice back the second time, though it was much harder than the first. But I can't recall where it came from.

Hades in the Greek mythology is a curious place. How exactly is it different from the world of the living, apart from the locale and scenery?

Patrice wrote: "Be careful what you wish for...you may get it."

"When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers."

--Oscar Wilde

There have been times when I really wanted something, and it didn't work out. I have since been very grateful that it didn't work out.

Tiberius wrote: "There have been times when I really wanted something, and it didn't work out. I have since been very grateful that it didn't work out."

That is true, although I think when foolish prayers are answered, it is not necessarily punitive, but could be educational instead. If Midas had not have his prayer answered, he would not have realized the folly of his greed. In the same way, children are allowed to make their own mistakes and learn from experience.

Nemo wrote: "Tiberius wrote: "There have been times when I really wanted something, and it didn't work out. I have since been very grateful that it didn't work out."

That is true, although I think when foolish..."

Another Wilde quote:

"Experience Is the Name Everyone Gives to Their Mistakes."

I agree Nemo. Without our mistakes, we would know nothing about life.

Tiberius wrote: "Experience Is the Name Everyone Gives to Their Mistakes"

Not everyone, only those with a heart to learn. :)

I'm quite amused that Midas was gifted with the ears of an ass for being a tasteless music critic. I suspect that's the prayer of all artists.

Tiberius wrote: "'When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.'

--Oscar Wilde"

Tiberius -- was hoping you might have this among favorite quotations on your profile (so could add to my own collection). Just went through about fifteen pages of Wilde quotations without finding it -- but was fun seeing so many thoughts that sliced through fog. I forget how talented Wilde was.

Tiberius wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Tiberius wrote: "There have been times when I really wanted something, and it didn't work out. I have since been very grateful that it didn't work out."

That is true, although I think..."

I guess it's true, trial and error, blind men walking, human history, the empirical method: experience, mistakes..

Nemo wrote: "Hades in the Greek mythology is a curious place. How exactly is it different from the world of the living, apart from the locale and scenery? "

That's a great question. I wish I knew the answer to it. One difference seems to be that the dead, while they can talk to the living (see the Odyssey, and Aeneid), and to some extent have bodily existence, don't have bodies in the same form as they had on earth. I don't recall any description of Hades where the dead eat or drink (as the gods clearly do, though not human food). It seems to be a sort of bland existence, if that; but it doesn't seem to be a place of punishment as it is in most religious thought.

Nemo wrote: "... I think when foolish prayers are answered, it is not necessarily punitive, but could be educational instead. If Midas had not have his prayer answered, he would not have realized the folly of his greed. In the same way, children are allowed to make their own mistakes and learn from experience. "

Excellent point. Reminiscent of Edison's saying, when he tried something that didn't work, and I'm paraphrasing not quoting exactly since I'm too lazy to go look it up, I didn't fail, I succeeded in finding out a way that didn't work.

Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Hades in the Greek mythology is a curious place. How exactly is it different from the world of the living, apart from the locale and scenery? "..."

The big difference seems to be that there is absolutely nothing joyful. Never.
And because of a different time-concept never really means never over there.
In short, it must feel somewhat like life in an office - without coffee breaks.

Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "Hades in the Greek mythology is a curious place. How exactly is it different from the world of the living, apart from the locale and scenery? "

That's a great question. I wish I knew..."
I think or rather I guess hell, as heaven, must be unimaginable in sense and mind, blown away, I guess like a child seeing all the things for the same time, feeling such an unexpected, unbelievable phenomenon..we have ideas or notions of reality from nature and art, it must be corresponding with some other source, but the human or self or soul experience I think could be as approachable as describing the sea or a forest to an ancient desert dweller..I imagine...

Everyman wrote: "Nemo wrote: "... I think when foolish prayers are answered, it is not necessarily punitive, but could be educational instead. If Midas had not have his prayer answered, he would not have realized t..."

Therefore the need for suffering and the dark and the need of the human condition..

Everyman wrote: " I don't recall any description of Hades where the dead eat or drink (as the gods clearly do, though not human food).."

In Odyssey Book XI, we read that Odysseus gave the dead sacrificial blood to drink in exchange for Tiresias' utterance, and Achilles exulted over news of his son's exploits. So it seems that they can still "eat, drink and be merry". When Orpheus was reunited with Eurydice, they must have felt joy?

Nemo wrote: "Everyman wrote: " I don't recall any description of Hades where the dead eat or drink (as the gods clearly do, though not human food).."

In Odyssey Book XI, we read that Odysseus gave the dead sac..."

A theme that the writers often give the departed is desire to know the fates of the living.

Patrice wrote: "Just a thought... does anyone see a relationship between the words orphan and orpheus? I looked up orphan and it is Greek."

Just three data points, Patrice:

Etymology of orphan from Merriam-Webster Unabridged online: "Late Latin orphanus, from Greek orphanos; akin to Old English ierfe inheritance, Old High German erbi, Old Norse arfi, Gothic arbi, Old Irish orbe inheritance, Latin orbus orphaned, bereft, Sanskrit arbha small, weak"

Orpheus: "Perhaps related to Greek ορφνη (orphne) meaning 'the darkness of night'."

http://www.behindthename.com/name/orp...

See also etymology here (indicates "orphan" as likely cognate): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus

Interesting side-bar from the wiki article: "The earliest literary reference to Orpheus is a two-word fragment of the sixth-century BC lyric poet Ibycus: onomaklyton Orphēn ('Orpheus famous-of-name'). He is not mentioned in Homer or Hesiod. Most ancient sources accept his historical existence; Aristotle is an exception.

Lily wrote: "A theme that the writers often give the departed is desire to know the fates of the living. ."

In other words, they gossip, watch tabloid news and entertainment. :)

Nemo wrote: "Lily wrote: "A theme that the writers often give the departed is desire to know the fates of the living. ."

In other words, they gossip, watch tabloid news and entertainment. :)"

Well, I had in mind the kinder twist of missing family and friends, but the characters in Dante's Divine Comedy were sometimes after the salacious stuff.

Everyman wrote: "Orpheus, who dominated Book 10, finds out that indeed Hell hath no fury... I was sorry to see him die; I was just getting to know and enjoy him. And I'm not alone; the birds, beasts, trees, even the rocks mourn his death. But at least he gets reunited with Eurydice. Does that count as a happy ending? If so, what is the lesson we are to take from this myth? ..."

I think the myth does qualify as a happy ending, after all, what difference does the location (the underworld) make if they are together and happy? The poem doesn't give any indication that the underworld is a bad place, in fact I can't remember any information about the underworld.

I thought the part of the myth in Book X where Orpheus disobeys instructions and turns back to look at Eurydice was telling the Greeks and Romans that when a god speaks and gives instructions, they are to be followed without question. In Book XI, the ending of the myth seems to say that the gods can be merciful if they choose to be, and when properly asked. Again, the ending of the myth doesn't indicate that the underworld is a terrible place, but, of course, I'm working on limited information.

Everyman wrote: "Then we find another myth which warns us not to toy with the gods, but with a twist. Midas is granted one wish, but he chooses foolishly and is headed for death. But this time we find, unusually, that the gods, who can be cruel and merciless, can also be merciful; when Midas confesses his error and begs for mercy, he actually gets it. I can't offhand recall another myth where the gods reversed themselves in this way.
..."

I wonder if in the case of Midas we are seeing an evolution of gods developing qualities of offering mercy when the human repents? I can't really tell if "evolution" is the right word since I haven't read many myths and don't know anything about the chronology of their creation.

Another obvious lesson to us would be that we'd better think about all of the consequences of seeking a goal or desire before we push too far ahead, else we could live to regret it.

By the way, can anyone tell me why the Thracian women were so angry that they killed Orpheus? I don't see where he did anything to them or did I miss something?

Yes indeed, I believe a Supreme Justice is paradoxically located in this relative world according to each tradition, sort of like the fairy tale logic that when we pass certain lands we are in the jurisdiction of those gods, so we choose to believe, so anciency and other proofs teach us reality and the laws and truth behind beliefs. I am one of those that holds the Pangea thesis, the pre Babel world logic, where there was one truth and language that later became scattered and reinterpreted or maybe in some cases misinterpreted, like the Cloud Atlas book and movie. What I'm trying to get at is that our beliefs and achievement of the divine come with our sources and qualification of soul and mind to reach and understand. For me the oldest basis for an absolute truth are the Vedas, and I see lots of resemblances in the Greek world. The Greek theology is very much more human or imperfect, more applicable to the reality we see on the street or tv. Ideas and beliefs develop, such as in physics, philosophy and even the paradoxical mathematics which is exact but deepening. So basically, and sorry for the major detour, I see Greek divine justice as all too human, random and as whimsical as the gods themselves in that mythology-theology. So it was a wild, myesterious and dark world, much like the underworld, which I don't even take away the intoxications and "pleasures" of the world.

Elizabeth wrote: "By the way, can anyone tell me why the Thracian women were so angry that they killed Orpheus? I don't see where he did anything to them or did I miss something?
"

The Thracian women were Maenads (Bacchantes). Ovid says their rage is "mindless", but it may have a root in the fact that Orpheus is the son of Apollo, who traditionally is opposed to Bacchus, the god of the Maenads. But according to Ovid, Bacchus grieves for Orpheus and punishes the Maenads, so it can't be said that they were acting on Bacchus' behalf either. Perhaps the most that can be said is that the Maenads were truly mad, totally irrational. This is consistent with the way they are usually depicted, as an irrational force of nature.

I just finally really read the story of Ceyx and Alcyone this morning and was deeply touched by it. Somehow, it reminded me of the Life of Pi by Yann Martel, with the challenges at sea. But also of other writings about the ocean and ships. The images of both the winds and the waves as well of Iris, on the instruction of Juno, eliciting King Sleep to sent Morpheus in a dream to Alcyone seemed very powerfully written to me. (pp377-390 in Mandelbaum.)