The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

The Dispossessed was written in 1974 and it is in my top five favorite novels of all time. LeGuinn effectively uses SF as a backdrop to present a social experiment that would be hard to stomach on modern Earth. Her stories have a message but she also weaves an awesome tale. Does everyone think she qualifies as "modern" or is she more classic? Obviously she wrote more than the Dispossessed. Left Hand of Darkness, etc. She's now in her 80s.

In terms of content, I consider her modern - but in terms of readability over the years, I bet she's classic..

I agree with you there. I first started reading her novels 20 years ago and loved them. Just re-read The Dispossessed and found it just as relevant today as 20 years ago.

Usuala K. LeGuinn's The Left Hand of Darkness is one of my all time favorite books. I've read or tried to read other books of hers and have found them to fall far short. LeGuinn's strong point seems to be in inventing and fleshing out cultures. In this regard one could almost consider her work anthropology fiction. A Wizard of Earthsea is pretty good, but it kind of of fits better in the fantasy genre.

After reading The Left Hand of Darkness, many years ago, I was so enthralled that I immediately read another of her books. It was a major disappointment but for the life of me I can't remember it's name. So, I don't know whether or not I read The Dispossessed. After that disappointment, it was years before I read LeGuinn again.

LeGuinn invented the ansible, a device which enables instantaneous communication over interstellar distances via thought waves. The ansible appears years later in Orson Scott Card's Ender series.

I can't imagine liking the left hand of darkness and then being disappointed by the dispossessed. the left hand of darkness deals with many of the same topics. experiments with different systems of governments and shows the pros and cons in all of them...different forms of sexuality. what was so interesting un LHoD was the idea of being both male and female and how that would change society completely. it's an eye opening book.

I'm reading The Left Hand of Darkness right now...

Some background info on her:


Ursula Kroeber was born in 1929 in Berkeley, California, where she grew up. She went to Radcliffe College and did graduate work at Columbia University. She married Charles A. Le Guin, a historian, in Paris in 1953; they have lived in Portland, Oregon, since 1958, and have three children and four grandchildren.

Ursula K. Le Guin writes both poetry and prose, and in various modes including realistic fiction, science fiction, fantasy, young children's books, books for young adults, screenplays, essays, verbal texts for musicians, and voicetexts. She has published seven books of poetry, twenty-two novels, over a hundred short stories (collected in eleven volumes), four collections of essays, twelve books for children, and four volumes of translation.

Her first major work of science fiction, The Left Hand of Darkness, is considered epoch-making in the field for its radical investigation of gender roles and its moral and literary complexity. Her novels The Dispossessed and Always Coming Home redefine the scope and style of utopian fiction, while the realistic stories of a small Oregon beach town in Searoad show her permanent sympathy with the ordinary griefs of ordinary people. Among her books for children, the Catwings series has become a particular favorite. Her version of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, a translation she worked on for forty years, has received high praise.

Three of Le Guin's books have been finalists for the American Book Award and the Pulitzer Prize, and among the many honors her writing has received are a National Book Award, five Hugo Awards, five Nebula Awards, SFWA's Grand Master, the Kafka Award, a Pushcart Prize, the Howard Vursell Award of the American Academy of Arts and Letters, the L.A. Times Robert Kirsch Award, the PEN/Malamud Award, the Margaret A. Edwards Award, etc.

Le Guin has taken the risk of writing seriously and with rigorous artistic control in forms some consider sub-literary. Critical reception of her work has rewarded her courage with considerable generosity. Harold Bloom includes her among his list of classic American writers. Grace Paley, Carolyn Kizer, Gary Snyder, and John Updike have praised her work. Many critical and academic studies of Le Guin's work have been written, including books by Elisabeth Cummins, James Bittner, B.J. Bucknall, J. De Bolt, B. Selinger, K.R. Wayne, D.R. White, an early bibliography by Elizabeth Cummins Cogell and a continuation of the bibliography by David S. Bratman.

Le Guin leads an intensely private life, with sporadic forays into political activism and steady participation in the literary community of her city. Having taught writing workshops from Vermont to Australia, she is now retired from teaching. She limits her public appearances mostly to the West Coast.

Lit Bug - I read the left hand of darkness a long time ago (along with most of her works of scifi & fantasy) and recently reread both the left hand of darkness and the dispossessed. Having lived a bit more since I last read them, I think I enjoyed them both more the second time around - amazing books and I think they both won both the Hugo and the Nebula awards. Thanks for the background on Le Guin! Let us know what you think of left hand of darkness. What I often wonder about Le Guin is why her protagonists are so often male. But in LHoD, there is much poetry - especially in the title itself. In addition to tackling both political systems and issues of sexuality in LHoD, she hits on even bigger issues as the title suggests - don't want to give anything away for you though.

Thank you! I'm about half-way through and am amused by the protagonist's internal debates on gender - surely I'll put up my review here and hope to have a meaningful discussion of it. I'm reading it as part of my ongoing thesis on feminist cyberpunk so I'm reading loads of such works now that focus on gender :)

What a fascinating thesis - keep us posted on the progress. I did mine back in the early 2000s on how public key cryptography/Internet encryption allows for greater freedom of expression and touched very briefly on gender experimentation. On that topic have you read Marge Piercy? Her books like "He, She, It" might interest you. I'd be interested in hearing about other books that you've been reading as well as part of your research. I just started on one of the fantasy series by Elizabeth Moon - The Sheep Farmer's Daughter. I'm thrilled that Moon is writing warrior-style fantasy from a *believable* female warrior POV. It will be interesting to see where she takes it.

I've been trying to get 'He, She and It' but it's priced exorbitantly or is mostly out of stock so am trying to find a library that has it, it has been on my list for long.

I wonder how you incorporated gender with cryptography, seems interesting and challenging!

I'll be TBRing Moon's series, have waited long for a female fantasy warrior!

Will keep you posted! Thanks!

Loved Left Hand of Darkness but I haven't read it in about 15 years. I remember being amused by the main character's attempt to come to grips with the nontraditional gender roles he's faced with.
Has anyone else read The Word For World is Forest? Just read that about 3-4 months ago. Makes me want to slap James Cameron.

I just finished reading and reviewing The Left Hand of Darkness - it was so beautiful! Now taking up The Dispossessed, but haven't read The Word for World is Forest - wonder what Cameron did wrong....

Although I don't see how The Left Hand of Darkness is shelved as utopian...

Cameron was obviously heavily influenced by the book, or it is one of the most amazing coincidences ever. Right in line with "Ice, Ice Baby" and "Under Pressure." Of course there are differences, don't get me wrong but there seems to be a lot of stuff that is directly lifted from the book to the movie, especially the main antagonist. Come to think of it, the Creechie in the story are a heck of a lot like Ewoks.

David wrote: "Cameron was obviously heavily influenced by the book, or it is one of the most amazing coincidences ever. Right in line with "Ice, Ice Baby" and "Under Pressure." Of course there are differences, d..."

I should read it soon then - I did have a few problems with Avatar...

David - was The Word for World is Forest a good book? Would you recommend it other than the fact that it plagiarizes?

Plagiarizes???

Heather I would recommend the book. It's more of a novella (Hugo and Nebula winner I believe). The work can be a bit preachy. I think the Berkley in Ms. Le Guin comes right out at times. :) That being said, it's a very solid and entertaining read with midget fuzzy green people.

Oh and the book doesn't plagiarize, unless I missed something. James Cameron and George Lucas seem to have liberally "borrowed" from the text.

Does anyone find The Dispossessed slow and boring in the first 20% or so?

Thanks David - Yes, Le Guin certainly has a message and interesting that Cameron copied her message along with everything else. I will check it out. I think it's a good message - especially in The Dispossessed she convinced me that I'm an anarchist. 8-)

Lit Bug, yeah the first part is slow I guess. But it gets more exciting I swear.

Is The Dispossessed part of the Hamish (sp) Cycle?

@Heather, I was thinking of giving up the book, but will go through the boring parts, I think.

@David, yes, it is just the one after The Left Hand of Darkness and just before The Word for World is Forest.

Is The Dispossessed the second book in a series? I read The Left Hand of Darkness forty some years ago. Should I reread it before reading The Disposessed?

It's not really a series per se but a loosely connected series of stories tied together by similar species/ideas. LeGuin denies it's a series, at least according to wiki.

LHoD is 4th in the series, but I hardly think it has to be read before the next - I see no similarities between the two, no indications that they are part of the series. Even looser than any two Harry Potters.

Go for it directly, makes no difference.

The Hainish Cycle is a bunch of novels based on the idea that the Hainish went around messing with people's DNA then planting them on a planet and waiting (for centuries or more) to see what happens.

The first few novels are a bit rough. The Left Hand of Darkness is considered pretty much the turning point.

And although I read it maybe 35 years ago and haven't reread it, at the time I *adored* The Dispossessed.

No one has mentioned The Lathe of Heaven. I'm surprised. It's one of my favorite books by her.

I liked the lathe of heaven a lot as well when i read it long ago. Good reminder to re-read it as well.

Jim wrote: "No one has mentioned The Lathe of Heaven. I'm surprised. It's one of my favorite books by her."

Since my last post in this thread, I've read The Dispossessed. It was good. I'll put The Lathe of Heaven on my wishlist.

I've abandoned a couple of Le Guin books. I'm reluctant to reread The Left Hand of Darkness, one of my all time favorites, for fear of not enjoying it as much as I did the first time. Perhaps if The Lathe of Heaven proves out, I'll see if Left Hand is as amazing as I remember it.

I know what you mean - when you're at a certain place in life a book speaks to you in a very specific way. I can tell you though that I read LHOD in my early 20s and loved it. 20 years later, I just read it again for the first time and still loved it but I noticed things in it that I hadn't noticed the first time around. Don't worry - it's still awesome.

I too have been very disappointed by novels I read years later, but I think LeGuin's writing holds up well.

Sadly, she died yesterday (22 Jan 2018) at the age of 88.
Rest in Peace, Ms. Le Guin !

I saw that. Well, she had a good run. Hope she was in good health up to the end & didn't suffer.

Sad to hear of her passing. The Dispossessed was one of my all time favorite books.

Oh no! Ursula K Le Guin was one of my very favorite authors. The Left Hand of Darkness is perhaps my all time favorite book.

I currently live in Berkeley, CA. Both she and PKD went to high school here, though not at the same time. They are even commemorated together on an electrical utility box near the school.

Since I read many of her books years ago, before Goodreads, I lose track sometimes of which ones I have or have not read. But I fondly recall A Wizard of Earthsea (among others) and plan to re-read it again soon.

The 1980 film version of The Lathe of Heaven was very impressive to me when I saw it on TV way back when. There wasn't much SF available on TV when I was a kid, and this was very smart SF.

Catherynne M. Valente said this of her: “One of the many, many things Le Guin gave us was a subtle one: that the ‘science’ in science fiction could also be the social sciences, and that, indeed, without it, no science fiction could be entirely complete.”

I like that.

She wasn't the first to put social sciences into SF, since that is what the early Utopian stories did. But she did help to bring it back to prominence.

Her great short story The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas had a big impact on me when I read it years ago.

Who else is really interested in the social side of scifi? Kim Stanley Robinson springs immediately to mind, but I not sure who else.

Radiantflux wrote: "Who else is really interested in the social side of scifi? Kim Stanley Robinson springs immediately to mind, but I not sure who else."

That was H.G. Wells, Jack London, Ray Bradbury, & several other's authors main reason for even writing in the genre. I expect that most (all) early utopian & time travel novels had that as their point.

JuniperGreen ~✰Knowledge is Sexy✰~ wrote: "Goodreads' list of Best Social Science Fi..."

That's a huge list & I was surprised it didn't contain Earth Abides although it did have a lot of other apocalyptic novels such as A Canticle for Leibowitz, On the Beach, & such. I hope that doesn't mean people aren't reading it any more.

I only saw one novel by Wells, The Time Machine. Most of his work should be on there, IMO. I also saw a lot of books I wouldn't have put on the list at all. I guess it's one of those question begging definitions that varies a lot between people.

Jim wrote: "Radiantflux wrote: "Who else is really interested in the social side of scifi? Kim Stanley Robinson springs immediately to mind, but I not sure who else."

I guess it's one of those question begging definitions that varies a lot between people...."

Yep. Another question one could debate endlessly! I'll just add Doris Lessing. Society is the main thing she wrote about, whether in SF or not.

That listopia list is interesting, but some of the choices are puzzling to me.

I've tried reading Le Guin over the decades, off and on, but never enjoyed her works... or, maybe, appreciated them. I kept thinking it was probably my fault, but I'm not sure.

Well, I just read The Word for World is Forest and omg. Yes, it's heavy-handed and obvious, but (judging by what else was being written in the years preceding its publication) it needed to be. Even Heart of Darkness and the anthropological stories by Chad Oliver don't address the role of women, and even Joanna Russ didn't effectively (imo) combine effective SF with her explorations of gender. But this has it all.

(Even down to the details. For example, once the human rapists are trapped into admitting that the natives are "animals," and are then accused of bestiality, they decide that homosexuality is not, after all, a perversion, but is 'clean' and leave the female natives alone.)

So. One of the things I liked best about the novella was meeting the visitors, the Cetian, Or, and the Hainishman, Lepennon. And I'd love to read more about them, or at least about their peoples. Ok, I look at the series page for the Hainish cycle, and none of the books look interesting even now. None of them actually seem to be about this League, really, much less focused on the Hainish.

I'm confused. Can any fan help me find another Le Guin book that I might like, or should I just stop here?

Cheryl wrote: "None of them actually seem to be about this League, really, much less focused on the Hainish..."

From the ones I've read, none are really about the Hainish people. It is always about some representative of the Hainish people visiting another world and observing the culture there.

I think that one of the short-stories ("Another Story" in A Fisherman of the Inland Sea) followed a guy from some more primitive world over to a university on the more technological world and then going home later (with time-travel mistake mixed-in). But even then the focus was definitely on the more primitive society.

In that society marriage was for four people. A male from tribe A + a female from tribe B + a male from tribe B + a female from tribe A. Sounded crazy to me, but then I later read some anthropological stories that showed me something almost like that has existed in some tribe.

Cheryl wrote: "I've tried reading Le Guin over the decades, off and on, but never enjoyed her works... or, maybe, appreciated them. I kept thinking it was probably my fault, but I'm not sure.

Well, I just read [..."

I can't imagine not enjoying most of Le Guin's. She is one of my favorite authors. The roll of women was never a determining factor in my enjoyment of her stories, though. She creates believable, complete cultures. I don't know what of hers you've read; I recommend, in addition to The Word for World is Forest, ] The Lathe of Heaven which has a male protagonist and The Left Hand of Darkness which has only one male human and bi-gender non-humans.

Cheryl wrote: "I've tried reading Le Guin over the decades, off and on, but never enjoyed her works... or, maybe, appreciated them. I kept thinking it was probably my fault, but I'm not sure.

Well, I just read [..."

The Lathe of Heaven which this group read.

I somehow missed this long profile and interview of Le Guin in the New Yorker, published a couple of years before her death. It's by Julie Phillips, who wrote the well-regarded biography of James Tiptree Jr/Alice B. Sheldon.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...
Let's see if I can find a couple of choice pull-quotes. Phillips & Le Guin got along well. She's at Cannon Beach, where Le Guin & her husband had a summer home: Looking at old photos:
"here was Ursula, age six or seven, with short black hair, bare-legged on dusty California ground, playing with a toy car and staring into the distance at something unseen.

“I like that one,” she told me. “I look feral. I guess I was rather feral.”

Then there was Ursula at the Arc de Triomphe, a gamine holding an armful of roses, and Charles, looking dashing in a new Parisian coat, climbing Mont Sainte-Victoire. ...

The next morning, Le Guin stood in the front yard of her house at the edge of the world, feeding a family of crows. The sun was out, and a block away the surf beat gently on the broad beach, where the town meets the waters of the North Pacific. Here the land seemed undone by the unknown distances of the ocean, and Le Guin seemed to be standing where the forces met, gazing beyond her garden to some farther shore."

UKL died on January 22, 2018, about a year and a half after the Phillips piece was published. So it's likely the last extended interview with the author. She's missed. May she rest in peace.