The Evolution of Science Fiction discussion

So who were some of the more important authors of proto-sci-fi and the creators of the genre we love some much? This will also serve as a jumping point for some early group reads.

Mary Shelley
Jules Verne
H.G. Wells
Victor Hugo
Samuel Butler
David Lindsay

Yevgeny Zamyatin should definitely be added to that list - he wrote We.

Duely noted! Any other suggestions?

Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon was published in 1930 and influenced Arthur C. Clarke. Maybe that should be the book we read right before delving into the Golden Age of SF.

That one is on my to-read list and I would definitely like to read it with a group!

Alexander wrote: "Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon was published in 1930 and influenced Arthur C. Clarke. Maybe that should be the book we read right before delving into the Golden Age of SF."

i bought that a while ago and have yet read it.. i get the feeling it wont be an easy read.

Pickle wrote: "Alexander wrote: "Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon was published in 1930 and influenced Arthur C. Clarke. Maybe that should be the book we read right before delving into the Golden Age of SF."
..."

Yeah I took a glance at reviews and that's something that seems the be the universal reason for low ratings. I'm still excited to eventually read this book though mainly for its epic scope and praise by Clarke and Lem.

Edgar Rice Burroughs (A Princess of Mars)
Karel Čapek (The Absolute at Large)
E.E. "Doc" Smith (The Skylark of Space)

I did a little research into The Skylark of Space, it seems like a fascinating read. It will be one to add to the pole for the 20's along with We.

Noticed "First and Last Men" above. It's a great read, but can be really tough. Stabledon was a philosopher by trade if I remember correctly. Sometimes it feels like you're reading Aristotle in space, just a bit more hauntingly depressing at times.

^Sounds good to me.

I'm new to the group, so my apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere & I missed it. From what I've been reading, the concentration of discussion seems to be on novels. IMO, some of the best & earliest SF I've read has been short stories. In the late 1800's & early 1900's magazines & the pulps were very influential on the 'new' SF writers who in turn influenced many of the scientists growing up then. While some serialized novels, they mostly did short stories.

Asimov, Heinlein, Bester, & a lot of others started out writing short stories for the pulps. That also brings to mind the juvenile SF. Heinlein's best work were those novels & his short stories, IMO.

Good point, Jim! A lot of the short stories from the pulp era have been almost lost too, at least unless they were written by a more popular author. The group itself is relatively new, just started in July really.

Good point, Jim! A lot of the short stories from the pulp era have been almost lost too, at least unless they were written by a more popular author. The group itself is relatively new, just started in July really.

A great read for short stories is The a science Fiction Hall of Fame volume 1. It's a collection put together to recognize Great SF written before the Hugo Award. It may not go back as far as we're discussing here, but it covers a lot of great stories written in the beginning of the genre. I've also seen discussed by SF writers over the years that the novella length is the best length for Science Fiction.

I'll add Robert Louis Stevenson as an early influence on Science Fiction. He was one of the main influences on Steam Punk.

In the future, if anyone else is interested, I'd like to read:
Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein
The Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Armor by John Steakley
Old Man's War by John Scalzi

They all have a similar plot, just a different perspective. I find the comparisons fascinating.

If anyone knows of an earlier, similar sort of book or even a short story, I'd love to include it. I thought of Wylie's Gladiator, but that deals with an entire life & WWI is just a chapter or two. The attitude is very similar to RAH's book, too. That's the cool thing about the above, the take on war varies so much.

if we're talking about short stories, Fredric Brown has written some mind-bending short stories. He was a real master...

Just a thought, why not include 1900 century and early 20th century horror novels in the reading list as forerunner of sci-fi? (saw you had read Frankenstein)

Frankenstein is actually considered as one of the earliest sci-fi novels (although to be honest I can never tell where one genre ends and the next begins!). I don't know how many early horror novels are also considered as sci-fi but there is probably a lot of cross over.

Edgar Allan Poe is often overlooked as an early pioneer of the scifi genre ... This anthology of short stories is a great introduction:

The Science Fiction of Edgar Allan Poe

Just wanted to point you to a great blog: The Victorian Hugos

Andreas wrote: "Just wanted to point you to a great blog: The Victorian Hugos"

Thanks Andreas. I've also put your link in the moving forward discussion as we were deciding what to read in early sci-fi and this has some good ideas.

Murray Leinster. First story, "The Runaway Skyscraper" 1919. Good fun. And so much more came from him after that.
https://librivox.org/search?title=The...

I don't know how "important" he was, but André Laurie wrote some nice early SF in French. He was a collaborator of Jules Verne, but also wrote books on his own.

I enjoyed an English translation of Spiridon (from 1907) put out by Black Coat Press.

That press has been translating and republishing many "classic" French SF works. Many of those are what I consider uninteresting pulp stories, but there are some heavier ones. They have an interesting list of works, many pre-1930, including proto-SF, here http://www.blackcoatpress.com/french-...

"Micromegas" by Voltaire (1752), I consider, arguably, one of the earliest scifi stories.

Denis wrote: ""Micromegas" by Voltaire (1752), I consider, arguably, one of the earliest scifi stories."

That story was included in the list I linked above. There you will also see a story by Cyrano de Bergerac from about 100 years before that which could also be considered SF. (There are even earlier examples of things that are almost SF.) In my opinion, these early stories are not exactly SF. Maybe they are proto-SF. I don't want to argue the exact definition of those terms. It doesn't really matter to me. In fact the works I like best don't easily fit perfectly in any pigeon-hole. But I have read Micromegas, and found it very dull.

Good ones! I've got a few of those on my TBR list.

Ed wrote: "That press has been translating and republishing many "classic" French SF works. Many of those are what I consider uninteresting pulp stories, but there are some heavier ones. They have an interesting list of works, many pre-1930, including proto-SFi

It's an interesting list, i'm going to have a look at some of the later ones as i'd quite like to read some more modern French sci-fi. I don't know André Laurie. Project Gutenburg have one of his books in collaboration with Jules Verne The Waif of the "Cynthia" but it's not science fiction https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16344

Apparently, "The Waif of the 'Cynthia'" wasn't exactly a collaboration. Laurie probably wrote the whole thing. Verne's name was added for marketing purposes. (Several other Verne works were based on work by Laurie.)

http://www.julesverne.ca/jvandrelauri...

I agree that "Cynthia" sounds more like an adventure story than a SF story, and that is true with some of Verne's work as well.

It is interesting to think that in 1888 the concept of travelling New York to Brest in Seven Hours would still be considered SF. One hundred years later, that would be commonplace. Nowadays, 30 years later, the thought of getting through airport security and customs in less than 7 hours seems Sci-Fi!

One important early author in French was J.H. Rosny Aîné. Like Verne, his works are sometimes SF and sometimes just adventure stories or something else.

Only known in English for not-exactly-SF Quest for Fire. But in French he is known a little better and has an award named for him: Le Prix Rosny-Aîné

Black Coat Press has translated a series of his works:
The Navigators Of Space and Other Alien Encounters
The World Of The Variants and Other Strange Lands
The Mysterious Force and Other Anomalous Phenomena
Vamireh and Other Prehistoric Fantasies
The Givreuse Enigma and Other Stories
The Young Vampire and Other Cautionary Tales
Helgvor of the Blue River

I am stunned by how quickly Brian M. Stableford can churn out translations. The sheer number of his translations/adaptations makes me wonder about the quality, though I haven't tried any yet. He is picking things that were originally in quite simple language, so maybe that explains the speed. Or else he is just really good.

I was not familiar with Rosny-Aîné. Thank you for drawing my attention to his work.

I ran across this quote in my review of Wild Things: The Joy of Reading Children's Literature as an Adult, not sure if this is the best thread for it but here ya go:

"Tom Sawyer Abroad and Tom Sawyer Detective were spoofs of Verne and Doyle, respectively."

That's interesting. I've never read either one thinking they couldn't possibly be any good. Knowing that makes a difference, though. Thanks!

One of Rosny-Aîné's books has recently become available on Project Gutenberg, in French only, though. La Mort de la terre from 1912.

There is a brief preface in which he says two interesting things:

[I did not attempt an exact translation. That is hard and I am lazy.]

First he says that while some people claim H. G. Wells was influenced by him, he himself doubts that Wells had read any of his books. And even if he had, Wells prefers to write about beings that are similar to creatures we know about, while he prefers to write about much stranger creatures, such as, for example, those made of rocks.

Second he says that while he could have easily spun-out "The Death of the World" to 300 pages, he thinks that SF is a genre that demands concision, although those who write it tend towards jabbering on too long. So, he kept the story to about 100 pages, and added two collections of short stories to bring it up to 360 pages.

There is also a footnote where he claims that, with a few exceptions, contemporary British critics are the most scatter-brained, frivolous, snobby and incompetent ones of all.

I wonder who he means as writing books that are too long. Perhaps Verne? I'm curious about the critics he is maligning as well.

I've downloaded the book and will gradually work my way through it. The first of the short stories reminds me of Poe.

Ed wrote: "I wonder who he means as writing books that are too long. Perhaps Verne? I'm curious about the critics he is maligning as well.."

I guess not only Verne but Wells too. As for critics, a few authors love them

Denis wrote: ""Micromegas" by Voltaire (1752), I consider, arguably, one of the earliest scifi stories."

Possibly, but Voltaire was a satirist. I'm surprised he wasn't imprisoned, as pre-revolution France was a savage tyranny.

John wrote: "Possibly, but Voltaire was a satirist. I'm surprised he wasn't imprisoned, as pre-revolution France was a savage tyranny.
"

He had quite a backing, including personal protection by Catherine II of Russia. That's why Jean-Jacques Rousseau had a conflict with him - Volter supported 'enlightened despotism', while JJR supported Poles, made stateless by Russia-Prussia-Austria

John wrote: "I'm surprised he wasn't imprisoned, as pre-revolution France was a savage tyranny."

According to Wikipedia, Voltaire indeed served time: "Voltaire had trouble with the authorities for critiques of the government. As a result, he was twice sentenced to prison and once to temporary exile to England. One satirical verse, in which Voltaire accused the Régent of incest with his daughter, resulted in an eleven-month imprisonment in the Bastille."

I wonder if exile to England is worse than prison.

Dan wrote: "the Régent of incest with his daughter, resulted in an eleven-month imprisonment in the Bastille."

As I understand the allegations made by Voltaire were false, so this is not a fight against the freedom of speech

Dan wrote: "I wonder if exile to England is worse than prison."

Probably they thought that if he is in another place he only would cause trouble to there, not to France.

Oleksandr wrote: "As I understand the allegations made by Voltaire were false, so this is not a fight against the freedom of speech"

Voltaire antedates freedom of speech. The system of government during his life was monarchy.

Rafael wrote: "Probably they thought that if he is in another place he only would cause trouble to there, not to France."

If so, they miscalculated badly. While living in England from 1726 to 1729, Voltaire wrote his not so well known Letters on England, which compared England very favorably to France, much to the chagrin of the French government. Maybe that is why he was only exiled once.

Dan wrote: "Voltaire antedates freedom of speech. The system of government during his life was monarchy."

The issue of freedom of speech as a part of freedom of an individual predates legal norms. It can be argued that Socrates was forced to commit suicide on this issue (among others). Monarchy can be with freedom of speech, see the modern Great Britain.

In a nomination topic, we're divided as to whether H.P. Lovecraft writes SF or not.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
messages 24-30

I'll reiterate my position. I don't consider his work SF, but he was very influential with SF authors for his exchange of letters/ideas with them. His aliens & settings show up in many later works due to the fine line between horror & SF. On top of that, SF is tough to define, so one of our benchmarks is how a book is shelved & a large number of GR users shelve it as SF.

We're not just about reading SF, but about the evolution of SF which grew out of other genres, so I'm willing to allow his work for a group read. I think any such works have to at least have elements of SF, though. Lovecraft's works have other dimensional beings & aliens that are horror not SF IMO, but others interpret it differently. That's OK. He probably won't get my vote for group read, but that's more because I've read a fair amount of his work & don't care much for his style.

Before Adam by Jack London in 1906 is another story I don't consider SF, but a lot of people do. It's basically the story of a caveman told as the dream of a boy remembering his first life. Even though he doesn't shelve it as SF, this GR friend's review shows the reasons for doing so.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Jim wrote: "Before Adam by Jack London in 1906 is another story I don't consider SF, but a lot of people do...."

I'd be willing to consider such stories about early humans as SF, though I don't have much interest in them.

Lovecraft has little bits of SF tropes in some works, but that wasn't what he was focused on. I've tried to read some of his works, but they just don't work for me. They set an eerie atmosphere, but then nothing really happens. He certainly influenced lots of writers.

I'm not sure why Frankenstein is considered a sci-fi or proto-sci-fi novel, but At the Mountains of Madness is not. Seems to me both dabble in horror and have humans face unhuman creatures.

Or why A Clockwork Orange or The Handmaid's Tale are considered sci-fi. Aside from being set in the near future they have few hallmarks or trops of sci-fi novels.

Unless they all fall in the speculative fiction category.

Frankenstein is generally considered as SF: even hard-SF for its time, so much so that Science magazine celebrated its second centennial with a special issue -- which I'm surprised isn't mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Not that long after the Galvani experiments with electrical nerve-twitches in (eg) dead frogs. So yes, hard SF at the time. Even more impressive -- the author was 19 when she wrote the book! Never been OOP in 200 years, sfaik. Can't be said about many 200-yo books!

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...

This is 'science' not 'speculative' fiction, so let's leave that one out of it, but I can see your points, Marc-André.

My opinion is that Frankenstein deals with science at the cutting edge of the time. It is questioning what we might do & whether it should or not by speculating about Galvani's science experiments which were the rage at the time.

IIRC, 'The Mountains of Madness' are basically like the rest of his stuff - descriptive horror without any scientific basis. It might be interdimensional, but they're treated more like supernatural phenomena.

'Clockwork Orange' is along the lines of The Time Machine or 1984. They're all exploring social progression & what we might do. It's not very SF, but the path society is on & the brainwashing thing at the end are both pretty strong elements that way. Compare it to Lord of the Flies. That's certainly not SF because it lacks those elements, bit it is another strong statement about civilization.

I haven't read 'The Handmaid's Tale' & have no interest, so I can't speak for it.

"Lord of the Flies": hrm. That's the dystopic version of Heinlein's Lost Schoolboy story (whose title I've forgotten). While I prefered RAH's optimistic story, FLIES is the reverse of that coin. If one is SF, then the other (imo) is, as well.