The Malazan Fallen discussion

Discussion thread for Chapter one

Apsalar rocks into Ehrlitan on an Assassination mission for Cotillion

Betrayals had to be answered. This task was more for Shadowthrone than Cotillion, or so the Patron of Assassins had explained. An old score to settle.

The mark is Mebra – Kalam’s contact in DG. Being Kalam’s contact probably means Mebra was indirectly at least working for Shadowthrone – Mebra had sold out to the Red Blades, putting them on Kalam’s tail – I’m assuming this is why he has made it onto Shadowthrone’s hit list .

As it turns out Mebra is taken out by another assassin just before Apsalar gets to him. After Apsalar guts him, she finds out that the assassin is a priest of the Nameless Ones. What are they up to.

This man had been a priest of the Nameless Ones.
Oh, Cotillion, you won’t like this at all.


On her way to the mission Apsalar uses the Shadow Warren to give two Pardu the slip.

‘She walks the shadows.’
The other nodded. ‘We must inform our new master.’

Who is this “new master?” And is it anything to do with the assassin that takes out Mebra?

Apsalar also frees what appears to be our comic relief – Telorast and Curdle – Two ghosts chained in the Shadow Warren. They make some outlandish claims about who they are

‘We were great mages, once,’ Curdle said. ‘Necromancers, Spiritwalkers, Conjurers, Wielders of Fell Holds, Masters of the Thousand Warrens—

‘—and even Kallor quailed before us, isn’t that right, Telorast?’
‘Oh yes, he quailed.’
’

But Apsalar notes

Curdle and Telorast spoke the language of the Tiste Andii. Yet betrayed intimate knowledge of the draconean realm of Starvald Demelain.

And we get this

Telorast hissed in a strangely reptilian manner...

They don’t sound human in any case. And it appears they were sneaking about in Shadow and ran into Baran – one of the Hounds of Shadow

‘You were supposed to watch the path – I specifically told you to watch the path—’
‘I did watch it!’
‘But failed to see the Hound Baran—’
‘I saw Baran, but I was watching the path.’

This is a different version to their original story which was

‘Twas a demon lord—’
‘With seven heads!’ the other interjected, bobbing up and down in some ill-contained excitement.
Telorast cringed. ‘Seven heads? Were there seven? There might well have been. Why not? Yes, seven heads!’

I have a feeling we are not going to be able trust anything these two say.



Meanwhile Leoman retreats with the remnant of Shaik’s army of the apocalypse with the Malazan army hunting them down.

Dujek’s army has just landed in Seven Cities as Well.

‘You attached to Dujek’s army?’ the man asked.
She poured out a full draught of the amber, somewhat cloudy wine. ‘No. Why, is it here?’
‘Tail ends,’ he replied. ‘The main body marched out six days ago. Left a garrison, of course. That’s why I was wondering—’

And Karsa rescues a witch from dying of thirst and exposure in the desert. In return he asks that she help him slip unnoticed into the nearby city. All eight foot whatever of him, and his giant horse, and with the two degaroth heads in tow. Things don’t turn out so well

‘They will find us nonetheless,’ Karsa said. ‘You have failed in your task.’
‘I wasn’t the one who threw that guard into a cart!’
‘He spoke rudely. You should have warned him.’

It's really hard to get good help these days isn't it Karsa?

But once the city guards realise he is Toblakai – Shaik’s bodyguard he is welcomed in.


And we have another convergence in the making

There had been mutterings of another convergence of powers. Vaster than any that had occurred before, and in some way Shadowthrone was at the centre of it. All of it.

What’s that old bastard up to now.

I thought the most interesting part of what Curdle and Telorast said was when they were alone and debating if they should wait for Apsalar to come back:

'So it's decided. We stay with her.'

'Yes' Telorast said. 'Until we can find a way to get out this mess.'

'You mean cheat them all?'

'Of Course.'

'Good.' Curdle said, stretching out along the ruined wall and staring up at the strange stars. 'Because I want my throne back.'

'So do I.'

I'm not inclined to trust the things they say to Apsalar, but to each other? Maybe. Which throne? Shadowthrone?

If they are dragons, what throne did the dragons once hold?

----------------

The stuff with Karsa was cracking me up. I really like him now. You almost forget the horrible things he's done. Except he tends to remind you.

'Are you planning to do anything unpleasant'? she asked.

'It is the blood-oil that drives a Teblor warrior to rape. I have none. I have not taken a woman by force in years.'

Well THAT'S a relief. It's been years..

I'm too lazy to quote more than I already have, but I find his matter of fact way of speaking the truth even when it's not in is best interest pretty awesome.

He doesn't really care about the consequences of things still. If things get out of hand, he'll just use his sword to resolve them.

Rob wrote: "I'm not inclined to trust the things they say to Apsalar, but to each other? Maybe. Which throne? Shadowthrone?"


Hmmm. That is a good question. I can't remember but I like your train of thought.

Karsa just cracks me up.

After all the headaches of the prologue, chapter 1 was a bit easier to digest, but offered a lot to think about.
As David already covered the 2 Pardu women, Telorast & Curdle and the mysterious Nameless One killer, I'll skip those topics and start with the sentences I found interesting.
Nothing mindblowing, but I guess there were a few nice drops in it.

1) Ripples

As I stated before, I really like how SE introduces his themes. And often those theme-sentences aren't one-dimensional, but seem to cause ripples as the story moves on.
Let's take a closer look on my favourite ripple sentence straight at the beginning:

Merchants, pilgrims, drovers, horses and travellers appeared before the guards as if conjured...

Immidietly after this sntence Apsalar enters the city and we're told how it didn't really look like that she could have come from this road.
That's, of course, she didn't. She came here on a magical/warren way "as if conjured".

This is like throwing a stone into the pond creating its first ripple.
Now let's look at the next ripple of the sentence, cause SE introduces us to the players within this first chapter.
If you're being poetic, Apsalar might be considered a "merchant of death" (Merchants).
In the second scene, you get Corabb and Leoman with their army. They are religously motivated(Pilgrims).
Next up we have Semar Dev, who experimented with some sort of cart (Drovers).
And she is rescued by Karsa and a huge part of his is dedicated to Havok (Horses).
At last, Apsalar frees Telorast & Curdle, therefore gaining some new travelling companions (Travellers).

Not all of these are as obvious, as the first ripple, but I think you could see the ripple still. And I wouldn't be surprised, if we see those ripples throughout the whole novel, each ripple being more subtle and vague than the ones before.
And knowing Erikson, based alone on the word "travellers", I'm pretty sure we're going to see Traveller at some point in this novel.

2) Mortals & Gods

From Semar's perspective we're getting another glimpse on the relationship of mortals and gods. This time with a little help from our...ants. (Yes, there is a terrible Beetles joke in there, somewhere...)

The ants scurried in confusion, and Samar Dev watched them scrabbling fierce with the insult, the soldiers with their heads lifted and mandibles open wide as if they would challenge the gods.

Particularly the "soldiers" parts is interesting, cause this is a sub-theme of the mortals and gods theme throughout the series.
It's the grunts in the trenches, who defy the gods again and again.

3) Shall we dance?

I smiled at this conversation between Apsalar and the two Pardu women and not only, because it's funny:

„See those Gral?“ one asked, nodding to a nearby table.
„They want you to dance for them.“
„No, they don't,“ Apsalar replied.
„No,“ the other woman said, „they do. They'll even pay. You walk like a dancer. We could all see that. You don't want to upset them -“
„Precisley. Which is why I won't dance for them.“

Of course there is the obvious thing about her being a Shadowdancer, but on another level she was possessed by Cotillion and as a mortal he was called Dancer.

4) Back to the prologue!

Here were seeing another ripple effect. Remember the sentence the ninth Nameless One said in the prologue?

Where all began, so it will return in the end.

I guess here we're seeing a ripple of this theme, when Corabb speaks to Leoman, who thinks about disbanding the army:

„That will not work, Commander. We are returning to our birthplace. It is the season for that.“

And if you take the second part as well - "It is the season for that" - you also get the ripple of the whole season of autumn, worm, decay image.

5) I chain you and you chain me

We learn something interesting from Semar regarding the binding of spirits:

„You cannot be much of a witch, then, if you need to bargain. Why not just bind them and demand that they heal your leg?“
„One who binds risks getting bound in return. I will not walk that path.“

With the whole amount of bindings and chainings within the series, this is something to keep in mind.
And I think it's no coincidence that Karsa, whose whole purpose is being unbound and chained to noone, is finding someone with this kind of opinion.

6) A quick genealogy

Sometimes it's good to seek our roots, know a little bit about your ancestors, wouldn't you agree, Sorry?

„If you recall, Apsalar looked nothing like this one. The real Apsalar was Imass, or very nearly Imass. And she wasn't very friendly-“

Filed as "interesting". Now, off you go dear, there's people to assassinate.

7) Sometimes it makes you wonder...

„She wondered who had been responsible for all those chainings. What unknown entity possessed such power as to overwhelm three dragons?

And if we take under consideration what we learnt from Semar, who would in turn like to be bound to three dragons?

8) No crazy 5 talk?

But we already talked about it. Look again at 1)
Merchants (1), Pilgrims (2), Drovers (3), Horses (4) and Travellers (5).
The ripple of the 5 is everywhere...

So, go find your inner dancer, treat ant soldiers with respect and don't bind yourself to strangers. See you next chapter.

Karsa's timeline is still troubling. Years since his last rape? That just doesn't square well with the events in House of Chains. By this account, it means that Karsa was bodyguard to the first Shaik for years, but that doesn't fit with some events that we know happened simultaneously between House of Chains and GoTM. Anyone able to clear this up?

Duffy wrote: "By this account, it means that Karsa was bodyguard to the first Shaik for years, but that doesn't fit with some events that we know happened simultaneously between House of Chains and GoTM. Anyone able to clear this up?
"

Unfortunately timeline is one of the biggest weaknesses SE has. There are a few interviews out there, where he admits that these problems exist, but that he isn't very dedicated to solve them. I think he can live with timeline issues, as long as he is able to tell his story.

Omg! Hold on! Iim doing it right this time! I'm taking notes! I finished chapter one and went to take a nap and y'all all over it already!

The last woman karsa rapped was before he got shipped to the otataral mines! Unless he added a few more with his time with leoman... that's usual behavior in seven cities! Still! I don't think he did! He gained some sense by them! Still! (view spoiler)[it was loved at first sight! She was dying in the deesert! And her knight in shinning armor came to the rescue! Except his white cloak was the fur of a sole taken! And his horse was concidering eating her! (hide spoiler)] also! I need to go and post my sad comments on the prologue thread!

Then! Not them! That sounds like him getting sense out of the raped women! Stupid auto correct from hell!

Duffy wrote: "Karsa's timeline is still troubling. Years since his last rape? That just doesn't square well with the events in House of Chains. By this account, it means that Karsa was bodyguard to the first ..."

It was about a year since he came out of the mountains to when he was aboard the Silanda going by this quote from HOC while on the Silanda

A year ago he would have killed someone for saying what Torvald had just said, had he understood its intent to wound – which in itself was unlikely.

And then when he is with Sha'ik Reborn

Years ago, such a thought would have filled his chest with fierce, bloodthirsty pride.

I haven't checked how the timelines match up - but the overall impression from HOC is that he was with the rebellion for some years.

@Mpauli - I'm liking all those ripples you're drawing out. They mostly went over my head. Erikson is just too smart for his own good.

David Sven wrote: "@Mpauli - I'm liking all those ripples you're drawing out. They mostly went over my head. Erikson is just too smart for his own good."

And he was able to do that, while releasing one of those 800-1000 page monsters every 12-18 months.
There has to be a ton of preparation and revision in it.

Rob wrote: "I'm not inclined to trust the things they say to Apsalar, but to each other? Maybe. Which throne? Shadowthrone?"

That's my thought too.

I was surprised and a little disappointed how much Apsalar's breaking down. Seems like she and Crokus are letting their least endearing qualities rub off on each other.

I'm just going to have to get used to the fact that Karsa's timeline doesn't square with the events in the books. Taking your quote above, it sounds like a year has passed along his journey from his village to the Silanda. Given the events in the book, that sounds pretty reasonable.

While he was a Malazan prisoner, he and Torvald heard about the fall of Pale. That's at the start of GoTM. From the start of GoTM to the end of DG and MoI, it would be generous to say that a year to a year and a half have passed. House of Chains added another few months.

But based on the feel of things, it seems like Karsa and Leoman have been companions for much longer. Now we hear that Karsa hasn't done any rapes for years. But there just aren't years to squeeze into the interval since he raped the entire village in HoC.

Another timeline issue for Karsa is his age. Leoman, in DG, says he's 17. In HoC, we find out he is 80. Add to this, (view spoiler)[he later returns and meets his teenaged daughters when there is no way that that much time has passed according to book events. (hide spoiler)]

It seems to me that there are a bunch of missing years between the time the Malazans captured him, and the time Shaik is assassinated. If I'm right on this, then it was simply a mistake for him to hear about Pale when captured. That would be enough to make the times fixable.

Duffy wrote: "It seems to me that there are a bunch of missing years between the time the Malazans captured him, and the time Shaik is assassinated. If I'm right on this, then it was simply a mistake for him to hear about Pale when captured. That would be enough to make the times fixable. "

I guess we'll have to engage in some selective editing ourselves.

The inconsistencies would be a little more forgivable if he didn't make a point of putting dates on the beginning of each book.

Telorast and Curdle are hysterical. I can't remember what in fact they are- they look like Tiste and speak Andii but are also draconian. They go way back, to the times before Draconus was imprisoned by Dragnipur. Elder times. Absolutely, truths come out of their mouths, just like Pust. They talk of a 7 headed demon, wouldn't that be the one from the prologue?
And the fear Edgewater.

I forgot how much I like Serem! Fonse, yes! Karsa has met his female! Loved what she said about bindings, chains - she refuses them, while Karsa has so many. He should learn things from her.

And we learn there is no distinct Azath for Shadow.

And we learn there is no distinct Azath for Shadow.

This is really interesting that no azath house is present for shadow but shadow itself has unseen chains which can be used for binding.

Also @Mpauli dude i think you are reading a completely different novel the way you find patterns is amazing.

And karsa is always noticeable if he doesn't want to, also his horse also seems nasty as he tends to to devour dead people, looks like his master has rubbed off on him.I loved apsalar showing up in ehrilatan at first i thought she was silver fox.

Good first chapter. I want to know what throne Telorast and Curdle held before they were (I assume) usurped.

Karsa has always been very Khal Drogo to me. I always picture him as Jason Momoa.

Ha! I never pictured Karsa as swoon worthy!

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "Ha! I never pictured Karsa as swoon worthy!"

He would disagree with you...

I don't either. Drogo scares me. He's incredibly intimidating to me and so is Karsa so I think that's how Drogo ended up as Karsa.

Chapter 1.......SOOOOooooo awesome being back with all the familiar faces.

(view spoiler)[
The biggest thing plot wise is that the realm of shadows keeps referencing chain. Three dragons chained in a circle, ascendants chained and so on. This has to be Crippled God related. Kellanved is in the mix again and nobody seems to like our emperor. And then there's the reference of the two ghosts to getting her throne back. The ghosts seem to know a lot about the Tiste Andii and Starvald Demelain and yet are connected to shadow? They're posing but it will be interesting to find out who they are from books ago. I see an OMG reveal in our future. The three chained dragons likewise will be huge.

Apsalar is becoming a bad ass that Sorry was if not quite as cold.

‘Everything is fine, woman. I am hungry. Find me an inn, one with a stable.’

Oh Karsa old friend how I'd missed your bluntness and I laughed out loud after you trashed the guard unprovoked and gave that as your answer.

Or to quote Leoman

'Would that Toblakai rode with him now. The giant warrior was blind to uncertainty. Alas, also somewhat lacking in subtlety. The bludgeon of Karsa Orlong’s reasoning would permit no disguising of unpleasant truths.'


(hide spoiler)]