The Malazan Fallen discussion

Discussion thread for Chapter Three

So we find out why Cotillion wanted Mebra dead as well as the other targets on Apsalar’s list

Mebra was positioning himself to become a High Priest. The best candidate – we’re not worried about the others.’
‘Cleaning house.’
‘Necessary, Apsalar. We’re in for a scrap. A bad one.’

And Shadowthrone doesn’t want any independent Shadow acolytes and priests messing about with his already fragile position in the warren when he is so stretched.

And we learn that Curdle and Telorasts are agents for Edgewalker –

‘They are now agents of Edgewalker. I am curious to see what they will do.’
‘For the moment they seem content to accompany me.’
‘Yes. I think Edgewalker’s interests include you, Apsalar, because of our past ... relationship.’
‘Through me, to you.’
‘I seem to warrant his curiosity.’

Edgewalker was lurking about Shadow since before the ascension of Kellanved

‘We first met him,’ Cotillion said slowly, ‘the night we ascended. The night we made passage into the realm of Shadow. He made my spine crawl right then, and it’s been crawling ever since.’

The involvement of the Nameless Ones has Cotillion worried

There was something important hidden within the killing of Mebra by the Semk. Cotillion had been shaken by that detail.
Although he had not asked her to pursue it, she would nonetheless, for a day or two at least.

Apasalar’s digging around in Mebra’s correspondence reveals one Taralack Veed (the Gral at the end of the prologue) is an assassin for the Nameless Ones

The outlawed Gral, Taralack Veed, was in Ehrlitan one month past. Truly a man to be feared, the most secret dagger of the Nameless Ones....
... that harrowing tale of the barrow and the fleeing dragon. A hunt has begun. Yet, who is the prey? And what role has Taralack Veed in all this?

That is the question now


Apsalar also catches the Pardu women that were trying to tail her and learns that they work for the Trygalle Trade Guild. It appears that there is no special interest from the guild in Apsalar – just two shareholders trying to get the sort of information that will give them a better seat on their ride through the warrens

‘So Karpolan Demesand’s interest in a Shadow Dancer is just passing.’
‘He likes to know ... everything. Information buys us advantages. No-one likes rearguard on the Ride.’
‘The Ride.’
‘Through the warrens. It’s ... hairy.’
I imagine it would be

Anyone else notice we get a glimpse of Lether via the Shadow Warren

Lower bridges spanned these canals. A few thousand paces distant, to the southeast, rose a massive domed palace,(The Eternal Domicile) and beyond it what might have been a lake, or a wide river. Ships plied those waters, square-sailed and sleek, the wood midnight black.(Blackwood ships) She saw tall figures crossing a bridge fifty paces away.(The bridge where Rhulad fought Moroch Nevath)
Telorast hissed. ‘I recognize them!’
Apsalar crouched low, suddenly feeling terribly vulnerable here on this high walkway.
‘Tiste Edur!’
‘Yes,’ she half-breathed.


And we even get to see the corpse of Moroch near the bridge where he died in MT

...there’s a body in the canal below.’
Damn this. She edged to the low wall and looked down. ‘That’s not Tiste Edur.’
‘No,’ Curdle confirmed. ‘It most certainly isn’t, Not-Apsalar. It is like you, yes, like you. Only more bloated, not long dead – we want it—’



And Karsa Orlong decides to assault Moravel Keep. If we remember back to HOC this is where Kindly’s half of the Ashok Regiment were under siege from the other half. The Ashok regiment are no longer here but the fort is still under siege from the locals. It’s ironic that Karsa finds himself at the fort of the regiment that captured him and brought him to Seven Cities.

If we also remember back to HOC, Kalam passed through here, inadvertently releasing a demon that was possessing a pureblood Thelomen Toblakai chained at the bottom of a well. The demon then possessed a Enkarel that drank from the river and they body switched – The Enkarel ending up in the body of the Toblakai as the new Champion of the Beast Hold to be used in the war against the CG.
I’m assuming this is the monster that Karsa battles in the keep – One Champion against the other – in which case the Toblakai is now Half Enkarel/reptile.

I had to laugh at the conversation the besiegers were having outside as they heard the battle raging

‘They’re negotiating,’ the Falah’d said, restless on the saddle as servants stood to either side, alternately sweeping the large papyrus fans to cool Ugarat’s beloved ruler.
‘It did sound like a scream, Holy One,’ Captain Inashan said after a moment.
‘Then it is a belligerent negotiation, Captain.

‘Wait!’ Inashan said. ‘Was that a bellow of some sort?’
‘He’s probably raping someone!’

The bear fur was in ribbons, dark with blood. He had tied a strip of cloth about his head, holding the skin in place over one temple. Most of his upper clothing had been torn away, revealing countless gouges and puncture wounds.
And he was covered in shit.
From the Falah’d twenty paces behind them came a querulous enquiry: ‘Toblakai! The negotiations went well?’


And back to Leoman and Corab – again I remember the discussions we had that Corabb was just too lucky and it might have something to do with Oponn

Corabb felt sad. He said, ‘You mock me, Commander.’
‘Not at all, you Oponn-blessed madman – my only friend left breathing – not at all


And according to Leoman Dassem Ultor is alive – a proven fact by Leoman’s logic because he is worshiped as the Lord of Tragedy ie Dessembrae –

It is the cult, you see. The Lord of Tragedy. Dessembrae. That is Dassem Ultor. I don’t doubt you understood that, but consider this – for there to be a cult, a religion, with priests and such, there must be a god. A living god.’
‘Dassem Ultor is ascended?’
‘I believe so, although he is a reluctant god. A denier, like Anomander Rake of the Tiste Andii. And so he wanders, in eternal flight, and in, perhaps, eternal hunt as well.’

And this may explain why Hood may have been becoming jealous of Dassem when Dassem was his mortal sword – if you follow the reasoning that Hood killed Dassem’s daughter to put him in his place.


And rumours of the badass Nefarious Bredd still persist

‘Well, I’m off to gossip with Flashwit and Uru Hela. Flash said she saw Neffarias Bredd a couple of days ago. A horse had died and he carried it back to his squad’s camp. They roasted it. Nothing but bones left.’
... ‘How come I’ve never seen this Neffarias Bredd, anyway? Has anybody here seen him?’
‘I have,’ Smiles replied.
‘When?’ Koryk demanded.
‘A few days ago. I’m bored talking to you. Your fire’s going out.’ She walked off.

No Come back! Who is Nefarious Bredd!


And Fiddler notices that Bottle is a lot more than he seems

‘Where do you keep your lizards?’ Strings asked.
‘In my clothes, out of the sun, during the day, I mean. They wander at night.’
‘And you wander with them.’
Bottle nodded.
‘That’s a useful talent,’ the sergeant commented, then went on, ‘especially for spying. Not on the enemy, of course, but on everyone else.’

Meaning he can use any small creature to listen in on High Command conversations. Put’s a whole new spin on “bugging.”

And

Earth-magic and talking with spirits – gods below, you’re so much like Quick Ben it makes my hair stand on end. Oh, right, it all comes from your grandmother – but you see, I know where Quick got his talents!’
....‘Quick’s got more warrens to draw on than any mage I’ve ever heard about. Except,’ he added in a frustrated snarl, ‘except maybe you.’

Bottle is also trying to keep a lid on another secret

He wasn’t doing anything wrong, exactly. Not really. Not so anybody would know, anyway. Except a sneaky bastard like Quick Ben. Abyss, what if he finds out who’s walking in my shadow? Well, it’s not like I asked for the company, is it?

A reference to the Eres’al witch that haunts his dreams. Probably the same one that stole Trull’s seed.

The scene with Nil and Nether been bawled out by their dead mother was pretty funny.

Not so funny is that Quick Ben, Kalam, and Gesler’s squad have gottem themselves lost. They were using the Imperial Warren as a short cut to beat Leoman to Yghatan when they suddenly find themselves somewhere else entirely

‘This is still the Imperial Warren, isn’t it?’
Quick Ben rubbed at his neck. ‘I’m not so sure.’

And even worse than that is they are being followed by something that’s come from Chaos

Emerging from the grey gloom, something massive, towering, black as a storm-cloud, filling the sky. And behind it, another, and another ...
‘Time to go,’ Quick Ben said.

Yikes!

The stuff with Karsa was pretty cool. I like his comments both before and after to Samar:

'That pup on the white horse is a fool. I could break him under one arm--'

'Yes that would likely break him. And his army?'

'More fools. I am done speaking witch. Witness.'

And so she did.

Then when he comes out and they are yelling at him:

Turing, Samar Dev flinched at the horror of the warrior's back. 'What happened in there?' she demanded.

A shrug jostled the slung stone sword. 'Nothing important witch.'

The fight was pretty crazy. If that was truly the champion of the Beast Hold, I guess I shouldn't have been rooting for Karsa..oops.


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I've been saying that Corab seems to have Oponn one his side and it seems like Leoman agrees with me at least. I'll be curious if we ever find out for sure/why.


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Bottle becomes more and more intriguing as this goes on. He seems to know about the holds. I'm looking forward to his conversation with Quick Ben.

The stuff with him and Nil/Nether was really funny.

'What did you do to her?'

'I agreed with her mother.'


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The stuff at the end of the chapter with QB, Kalam, Stormy and Gesler had me cracking up. There situation might be no laughing matter, but there dialogue sure was.

I think those scenes are always going to be among my favorite. Especially if QB and Kalam stay together.


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With the cast of characters as large as it is now, he's jumping around a fair bit. No wonder the book is an extra 250 pages..

I love it when Karsa is kicking ass!

I thought that he was fighting a short tail K'Chain Che'Malle as he mentions the stubby tail.

Bottle is also interesting and am looking forward to discovering more about him

Having said that the last book was my Fave so far I am now thinking this one may be even better!

I easily like this book better than MT so far.

Chapter 3 had some really interesting scenes and again a lot of comic relief.
Great summary again by David. As I skipped book 5 on the reread, it was great to see all the scenes from Apsalar's glimpse explained. That was really insightful.

Despite the thorough summary, I hope I've found a few interesting sentences and themes to add, so let's get into it.

1) Apsalar

I really liked the quiet scene between Apsalar and Cotillion. It seems to hold a lot of subtext:

She reached up with one hand and brushed the line of his jaw, the gesture close to a caress. She caught the sudden intake of his breath, the slight widening of his eyes, but he would not look at her. Apsalar lowered her hand. „I'm sorry. Another mistake. It's all I seem to make these days.“

"I'm sorry" is clearly more than an apology. Apsalar feels lost. I think a part of her wants to be reunited again and led by Cotillion. Therefore the apology seems more like a wish "I'm still Sorry".

But why does she long for a time, when she was possessed?
"Another mistake. It's all I seem to make these days."
That's why. Apsalar feels that all her own/free decisions are mistakes. Life free from Cotillions possession is hard and has consequences, like loosing Crokus.

2) Machines and Fragments

I think it was pretty interesting, what Samar Dev had to say about the Moraval Keep:

„It is an ancient structure, older even than Ugarat itself. True, alterations have been made every now and then – all the old mechanisms were beyond our understanding, Falah'd, even to this day, and all we have now from them is a handful of pieces. I have made long study of those few fragments, and have learned much-“

Mechanisms beyond one's understanding? Sounds like Icarium, if you ask me.
Could it be that he built those? Would fit, cause the keep is even older than the city.
And if that assumption would be correct, it would be another incident, where Icarium is connected to the theme of fragments.

3) ???

Mild spoilers regarding this book:

(view spoiler)[Something clicked for me, when Corabb was talking:

He had seen them, again and again. Like birds. Obsessed with self-importance, thinking themselves tall, as tall as the night sky.

It might be far fetched, but I had an image of Telorast and Curdle, taking up the reptillian bird skeletons later on. (hide spoiler)]

4) Quick fun with number 7

I don't want to ride the numerlogy thing to death, but I found interesting, that the number shows up again, this time in the context of Y'Ghatan:

„Seven Y'Ghatans, seven great cities to mark the ages we have seen, the one we see now crouched on the bones of the other six.“

Beyond the number in itself, I found the information in there quite interesting.
It seems that in the Seven Cities calender, there are seven ages as well.

(view spoiler)[And of course we're getting the information that the city stands on the ruins of other cities and we're presented with the theme of bones as well. (hide spoiler)]

5) ???

Again, a spoiler for this book:

(view spoiler)[Keeping in mind what will happen in Y'ghatan later, there is a lot of foreshadowing in the conversation between Corabb and Leoman:

„Because only I know what I intend to do.“
„Tell me.“
„No, my friend. This burden is mine.“
„You lead us, Leoman of the Flails. We shall follow. As you say, you carry all of us. We are the weight of history, of liberty, and yet you are not bowed-“

And later:

„We need say no more of it. Y'ghatan. This shall be our city. Four, five days. It is just past crushing season, yes?“

There are also several mentions along the line of a "path of fire" (hide spoiler)]

6) Edgewalker

Isn't it scary that Telorast and Curdle, beings who know about the thrones and even suggesting having claims to one, are mere agents of Edgewalker?
So I went back to the last chapter and - I don't think we established that yet - found out that Edgewalker considers itself to be an Elder God.

First, we got a conversation between Cotillion (sentence 1 & 3) and the dragon Ampelas (sentence 2 & 4)

„The Elder Gods. They are not simply of one world, are they?“
„Of course not.“
„And how long have they been around?“
„Even when Darkness ruled alone,“ Ampelas replied, „there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only by their own laws.

So basically, the Elder Gods were elemental forces.

At the end of the chapter, Cotillion talks to Edgewalker and look, what Edgewalker says about himself:

„That would mean more to me if I knew who – what – you are.“
„You may consider me...an elemental force.“

7) ???

Spoiler for DoD and CG:

(view spoiler)[I found it really funny that Bottle was talking about, how the lizards are his friends, when he will end up being blown apart and fragmented by fighting the K'Chain Che'Malle, who are also lizardlike. (hide spoiler)]

So, that's it for today. Stay away from possessing injured Pardu women, don't piss out the fire and never agree with a Wickan's mother!
See you next chapter.

On another point. Now that I am caught up it is going to be hard not to carry on reading until Sunday!

Paul wrote: "On another point. Now that I am caught up it is going to be hard not to carry on reading until Sunday!"

I solved that by signing up to read way too much other stuff that I read on the weekends. Mostly has worked well for me. But it's not for everyone.

I do have a few other books on the slow burn but just itching to know what happens next!

Paul wrote: "I do have a few other books on the slow burn but just itching to know what happens next!"

I find waiting to discuss it at the same time as the group worth the trade-off. Others don't.

Some other options (based on what others have done):

1) Read ahead, taking notes for each chapter for discussion.

2) Start late so you can read more/all of it at your own pace.

Both have their pros and cons.

I will sometimes read ahead for a week, or fall behind for a week so I can focus on reading an entire other book as well.

Yeah I think the advantage to being able to discuss at the same time is worth it!

Mpauli wrote: "Chapter 3 had some really interesting scenes and again a lot of comic relief.
Great summary again by David. As I skipped book 5 on the reread, it was great to see all the scenes from Apsalar's glim..."

I'm really liking the Apsalar and Cotillion scenes too.

And I wonder if the seven ages of Y'Ghatan could be the same as the seven Closures of Letheras.

Silvio wrote: "And I wonder if the seven ages of Y'Ghatan could be the same as the seven Closures of Letheras"

Ah - that's a good pickup - a valid one seeing that the city is sitting on the bones of six ages making the current age the seventh. Mpauli conveniently pointed out the relevant quote

Seven Y'Ghatans, seven great cities to mark the ages we have seen, the one we see now crouched on the bones of the other six.

@Mpauli

It's so useful how you number your posts :)

re no 2 - I agree that the mechanisms are probably Icariums

re no 3. (view spoiler)[Curdle and Telorast sound a lot like wyvals to me. But I think they are referred to as dragons by those who seem to know - still...wyvals are eleint spawn (hide spoiler)]

No 6. Isn't it scary that Telorast and Curdle, beings who know about the thrones ...

Their interest was perked when they noticed a throne when we saw that snippet of Lether - the Empty Throne.

Another insightful post Mpauli

Silvio wrote: "And I wonder if the seven ages of Y'Ghatan could be the same as the seven Closures of Letheras. "


Yep, I like that thought a lot. That would be quite interesting, cause although "time stood still" in Letheras regarding warrens, that could mean that there were significant changes through the ages that are witnessed on every continent.

With Erikson's background in archaeology, I would assume that those ages could be arachaeological time periods.

Paul wrote: "I thought that he was fighting a short tail K'Chain Che'Malle as he mentions the stubby tail."

Actually you are right. I went back and checked properly like I should have done the first time. This is a totally different place than where the Ashok regiment were holed up. So this is very much a K'Chain Chemalle short tail. Which means the Beast Hold still has a 4 metre tall enkarel possessed Toblakai floating around somewhere.

I had thought it was a short tail K'Chain Che'Malle, when I read it too, but I had just assumed David was right and I was wrong.. lol.

Rob wrote: "I had thought it was a short tail K'Chain Che'Malle, when I read it too, but I had just assumed David was right and I was wrong.. lol."

Never trust a fragmented brain. :)

David Sven wrote: "Never trust a fragmented brain. :)"

*nods wisely before starting to look for the fragments of his own brain*

A couple of things about Karsa's scrap with the short tail. Before he goes into the keep, he tells Dev to "Witness." But she doesn't get to see anything. Then, when he comes out and she wants to know what happened, he simply says "nothing important." If not important, then what need for a witness? And if he keeps his deeds private, as he does in the end, why is he asking her to be his audience/recorder?

The other thing I didn't understand is why he threw away his sword. Was it simply for the greater glory of beating the thing to death with his fists? Was it some notion of fairness (not likely)? Or did I just miss some detail?

Final question, not about Karsa. Does anyone have a clue how we are supposed to feel about Leoman at this point? Corabb worships the guy. He and Karsa have at least some mutual respect for each other, and perhaps even friendship - though Leoman says he is now without living friends.

Duffy wrote: "Does anyone have a clue how we are supposed to feel about Leoman at this point?"

I think Leoman is a true freedom fighter - but he's not a true believer or fanatic for the Apocalypse. He's fighting against the Malazan's and the religion around the "apocalypse" is just a means to an end for him - it gets people fighting Malazan's so he's all for it. - Maybe. So in that regard I think he at times comes off ingenuous because he's not a true believer - but really he is - just not for any particular religion. At the moment he's looking for reasons to go on. (view spoiler)[perhaps he does have some sort of religious epiphany where he will make use of the apocalypse again to make his stamp on history (hide spoiler)]

I took Karsa throwing away his sword as the cliche two badasses throwing away the weapons etc. Or maybe he just wanted to see if he could.

And I think his "Witness" was in response to Samar's insistence that she watch.

‘I will assault this keep alone, witch.’
‘You certainly will,’ she replied. ‘I’m just here for a closer look.’
‘I doubt there will be much to see.’’

Or perhaps she is to Witness his first assault or mark on civilization since coming out of the wilderness so to speak.

"Witness" is definately Karsa's catchphrase. My personal theory is that Karsa has a lot of daddy issues. Therefore it seems important to him to be witnessed, to get approval eventhough he acts as if he couldn't care less, if someone approves of his actions. At this time, being "witnessed" is such a crucial part of his ritual.
And in this case I assume that the deed of going into the fortress alone and coming out as the sole survivor is the part to be witnessed.

And I agree, throwing away the sword is just the typical Karsa badass behaviour that leads to a lot of eyerolling and fake vomitting from me.^^

Is it just me or does it seem like Karsa takes a little bit too much damage in the battle with the short tail? It seemed like Die Hard or something, Bruce Willis can get beat nearly to death but as soon as he fights the main villain he has plenty of energy left to keep on kicking ass. I know it's fantasy but this scene in particular seemed to stretch the bounds of my disbelief in regards to how much damage a character can take without dying, teblor regeneration be damned. Just me?

I'm not sure Karsa is the same Teblor he used to be. While I wouldn't say he has ascended - I think as the chosen(if unwilling) Champion for the House of Chains plus an army of undead souls in his wake - he is definitely on his way. I think seeing him take down the two Deragoth Hounds in HOC sets the precedent for how much damage he can give and take.

Ummm... I think he just wanted to see them breaking that iron door with his sword. It was pretty badass! Everyone wwatching crapped their pants when they saw him do that.

About throwing away the sword for the fight... remember when the short tailed charged at him... it was surprised! When something like that comes at you you run! Karsa faced it head on! At that point he was all about being badass! A good ol' "fuck it" moment!

About his healing! He is the champion of the crippled god! Remember in house of chains when he got the chackles in his hands and legs... anyboddy else would have them amputeded... he is also inmune to infection...

When Karsa tells someone to witness, its because he anticipates doing something extraordinary. And I guess breaking through the iron gate in two strokes counts. But I don't think Karsa pretends that he could not care less about others. When he tells Samar that it nothing important happened, we can be pretty sure he means it. He's not given to false modesty. Karsa has his own ideas about what's important and what isn't, and taking down some Short Tail may be an awesome deed, but from Karsa's standpoint, it's just not important, because it doesn't advance his goals at all.

David Sven wrote: "Duffy wrote: "Does anyone have a clue how we are supposed to feel about Leoman at this point?"

I think Leoman is a true freedom fighter - but he's not a true believer or fanatic for the Apocalypse..."

Wasn't there some scene near the end of HoC where Leoman was explaining or thinking about his motives? Somebody who has a copy help me out. From what I can remember, he sounded awfully bitter and destructive and not like someone we were supposed to like. On the other hand, he seems more honest and less manipulative than some, and maybe that's what Karsa sees in him. He's a mysterious character all around, and I feel like the last stuff we've read about him is building up to something that will reveal more, so maybe we aren't supposed to judge him until then.

I missed that it was a Short-tail too, and can't blame it on David Sven because I actually thought it was the Toblakai-possessed enkar'al, forgetting Kalam already killed that.

I'm not sure which quote exactly you are referring to, but Leoman was generally of the opinion that the war was winnable - he's frustrated because all the tactics and strategy are all wrong and that all the politics is achieving is stupidity that is squandering their advantage by allowing the Malazan's to just march in unopposed. It's why he decides to disobey Sha'ik and engage the Malazans beforehand.

Had Sha’ik given Leoman five thousand warriors, the Adjunct and her army would be the ones retreating. All the way back to Aren, mauled and limping.

I think he sees the Malazan's even reaching the the Whirlwind goddess the result of stupidity from the leadership and he's had a gut full

‘I think not. There is nothing pure in the Whirlwind’s sorcery, Corabb. No, there will be a battle, at the very edge of the oasis. Korbolo Dom will command the Army of the Apocalypse. And you and I, and likely Mathok, shall find ourselves a suitable vantage point... to watch.’
Corabb leaned to one side and spat.
‘Our war is done,’ Leoman finished, collecting his reins.
‘Korbolo Dom will need us,’ Corabb asserted.
‘If he does, then we have lost.’

The other thing I didn't understand is why he threw away his sword. Was it simply for the greater glory of beating the thing to death with his fists? Was it some notion of fairness (not likely)? Or did I just miss some detail?

So when I read that part, the first thing that came into my head was; that makes sense, what use is a 10 foot sword in hand to hand combat. I think Karsa knew it was going to be a grappling battle and the sword would be useless. But of course, describing that he threw it away makes it all the more dramatic.

I agree - Leoman believes that the if he had been leading the rebellion the Malazans would have lost, and instead the leadership was given away. I think he is bitter about that, and his massive ego now is wondering how to make his mark on history. We're getting hints that Leoman has secret thoughts now, that he's not sharing with Corabb, and has reached a decision that doesn't correlate with what his followers believe - that he is making the final stand for the Apocalypse.

I agree that the Karsa fight was a bit much, the damage he took and still he was able to continue? But while it did stretch believability, it also demonstrates not only his badassery and Toblaiki ability to heal, but that he has ascended beyond the realm of us mere mortals! I don't think he's a god or ascendant, but he has most definitely become extremely powerful and is a major player in the war of the members of the pantheon.

The passage I was thinking of was Leoman thinking something about how humans were all contemptible and he wanted to wipe the earth clean of them. But maybe it was just Malazans? I don't totally trust my memory.

I thought Karsa said that?

Could be.

Anyone else notice we get a glimpse of Lether via the Shadow Warren

Totally missed that - good catch, I was wondering where they were.

I am another who rolled their eyes when Karsa tossed his sword aside.

The slug eating scene should come with a warning. Ick. Interesting that Bottle can so easily follow Nil and Nether in their warren travels. I didn't realize it was the eres'al hiding in Bottle's shadow, thanks for that.

I also thought of Icarium when Samar Dev mentioned the old mechanisms that had been dismantled - and I wondered what those mechanisms had been created to do that they were now no longer doing.

@Mpauli, David Sven, Linette: I wonder if the mechanisms could actually be K'Chain Che'Malle and not Icarium's? I'm just saying this because there was a Short-tail inside the keep.

Silvio wrote: "@Mpauli, David Sven, Linette: I wonder if the mechanisms could actually be K'Chain Che'Malle and not Icarium's? I'm just saying this because there was a Short-tail inside the keep."

I think so yes. Very possible. Icarium's mechanisms so far have all been "time" oriented and I can't remembered any suggestion that the machines in the keep were time oriented.

Silvio wrote: "@Mpauli, David Sven, Linette: I wonder if the mechanisms could actually be K'Chain Che'Malle and not Icarium's? I'm just saying this because there was a Short-tail inside the keep."

I based the assumption on two things. The first would be a literary thing.
In my theory Icarium is always connected to the word "fragments". So from my point of view, the use of this word by SE here is a hint that ties the machine to Icarium.

The second comes from the second chapter. Mappo and Icarium discussing where they are going. Icarium names a lot of cities, which don't exist anymore. So, Icarium was very active in the region and visited all those cities.
And see what Mappo tells us about the place, where all those cities were:

The plains have lost their topsoil, becoming the Latho Odhan to the east of the Mersin River, and Ugarat Odhan to the west.

And as we know from Samar Dev, the machine parts were found somewhere near Ugarat, but are older. So the assumption was that Icarium build it there at the time the older cities existed.

Both, of course, is not definite proof, but for me it's at least circumstancial evidence that speaks for a connection between Icarium and the machine.

@Mpauli - that's a good argument for Icarium too.

Lower bridges spanned these canals. A few thousand paces distant, to the southeast, rose a massive domed palace,(The Eternal Domicile) and beyond it what might have been a lake, or a wide river. Ships plied those waters, square-sailed and sleek, the wood midnight black.(Blackwood ships) She saw tall figures crossing a bridge fifty paces away.(The bridge where Rhulad fought Moroch Nevath)
Telorast hissed. ‘I recognize them!’
Apsalar crouched low, suddenly feeling terribly vulnerable here on this high walkway.
‘Tiste Edur!’
‘Yes,’ she half-breathed.


And we even get to see the corpse of Moroch near the bridge where he died in MT

Great pick up David I totally missed that.


I’m assuming this is the monster that Karsa battles in the keep – One Champion against the other – in which case the Toblakai is now Half Enkarel/reptile.

also is it really a kchain malle because they have sword infused hands and they are tremendously fast, because if it was a kchain malle i don't think karsa would have put his sword aside.Also were really any malazans hiding over there ?

In Mebra's scribles, we hear about a High Preistess named Torahavel Delat.

"...Torahaval Delat of Karashimesh. Fools and charlatans one and all, although it must be said, Torahaval is a bitch, with nothing of the humour of her cousin, nor his deadliness. She plays at this and nothing more, but she will make a fine head-piece, a High Priestess with seductive charms and so the acolytes shall flock."

Perhaps a cousin of Ben Adaephon Delat "Quick Ben"?

You'll find out more about her later.

Is anyone reading this one at the moment like me? Karsa's fight with what I suspect to be K'Chain Che'Malle short tail was epic. Does that also mean that this castle is actually a Sky Keep like Moon's spawn? Didn't the short tails look after those or am I confusing them with something else?

Interesting thought Carl - but I'm not sure the castle is a sky keep. But you are right in that the Short Tails are associated with the sky keeps.

Haha just me then, trying to get in there before Erickson confuses me some more. Glad i'm remembering about the short tails correctly :) It was the Short Tail + Keep + Samar Dev talking about mechanisms that got me suspicious.

Really enjoying this one so far.

Carl wrote: "Really enjoying this one so far. "

This book has been my favorite of the series thus far.

Zayne wrote: "I assumed that Karsa was able to take all the hurt because he was Toblakai? I thought they were just more durable than us "kids" "

Yes - plus the Teblor clans in particular where Karsa grew up had a lot of contact with "blood oil" - which is basically a form of Otataral. It's why Karsa is resistant to sorcery - but also Otataral has healing properties - remember back to Rallick Nom (Gotm)covered himself in Otataral dust and that made him heal fast

I think a lifetime of contact means the Teblor are pretty much saturated physically - at least that's what I infer.

Duffy wrote: "A couple of things about Karsa's scrap with the short tail. Before he goes into the keep, he tells Dev to "Witness." But she doesn't get to see anything. Then, when he comes out and she wants to..."

Asking why Karsa said 'Witness' is liking asking why the Fonz said 'Ayyyyyy'...

I was also confused about the sword thing. At first I thought he dropped it because he wanted to wrestle the thing to the ground and take it alive... then he crushed it's brains. That's Karsa for you :D Someone put forward an interesting theory that he dropped it because a 10 foot stone sword wasn't well suited to close quarters. That's a good point but I don't agree. In a fight the difference between being unarmed and having even a knife is massive and there are a load of techniques that a warrior of Karsa's skill could have used within a confined space (half-swording, thrusts).

Yeah, Leoman is an awesome, confusing character. So far Erikson seems almost contemptuous of labeling him 'good' or 'bad' and I'm really interested to see what he's going to do next.

Great catch from David about Lether. I was wondering what was up with the body and that's a really cool answer. Also the Short-tail vs. Icarium debate about the mechanisms is interesting.

Chapter 3. Through 3 chapters this is the best book to date. The action, banter and series altering news just keeps coming with constant new information about characters we thought we knew.

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Kind of a tender and yet somewhat incestuous moment between Cotillion and Apsalar. Telorast and Curdle are pretty funny if somewhat annoying. Who is it that's on Apsalar's hit-list that she has no enmity against? Pretty much eliminates Tay, Laseen, Tavore and a host of others. And then who is she visiting? What about the throne the ghosts are hinting at? Lots of threads.

The Karsa fight scene was entertaining and so Karsa. The reaction of the city guards to his breaking a steel door as well. Typical Karsa being immovable and not letting anybody call him Toblokai that hasn't known him for a while.

I'm hoping for Taralack Veed POV chapter. He seems like a Karsa style bad ass. Those two meeting wouldn't suck.

Ghosthands can destroy the world? Interesting. His power was stepped up on HOC and now this. I didn't think he was going to survive DHG and now I'm thinking he's here until the end.

Dassem ascended and is Dessembrae? Didn't see that coming. Comparing him to Rake as still wandering is interesting and doesn't stop him from being Traveler anymore than Bug and Mael.

Bottle has somebody in his shadow? Hmmm. Shadowthone? Maybe a situation like Udinaas? Or like QB with the Barghast spirit? This has god written on it through I have to believe. I sided with her mother, LMAO.

QB and company assaulted from the warren of chaos. Even though I hated him it would be interesting if Hairlock was somehow brought back.

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