Haaave Ya Met... discussion

Hi guys. I'm Dionne and I'm an editor (and author). Feel free to ask me any questions as I love to help. I'll start off by saying that two of the most common mistakes I see with new authors is repetition—in both word usage and sentence structure. Make sure you vary these things so you don't bore your reader. :).

I also find that even with more experienced writers, everyone has their achilles heel. I spell lightning - lightening. I know the correct spelling, but my fingers do what they want.

Hi, Dionne

There is little doubt that the services of an editor are invaluable for any writer. For self-published authors, there is, in some respects, even more pressure to produce flawless text; typos, spelling mistakes and the like are easy targets for those readers and reviewers who'd rather engage with the typography rather than the text itself and are quick to attach the qualifier 'self-published' on that basis. Yet, even before the self-publishing explosion, any author will tell you that, on receipt of their author copy, it's sod's law that the first page they open to will contain an error. Self-published authors have to work a little bit harder to make sure that their works are, like Caesar's wife, above suspicion.

Nor do many self-published authors really know the difference between a literary editor and a copy editor. For all my books I have engaged both and although having a literary editor can lead to some very spirited discussions, both have been indispensable.

As a professional editor you could well be best-placed to lead a discussion on the merits of both types of editors, and the difference in the process of working with them.

Another editing issue that we might like to discuss is how writers are affected by the different regional practices, most obviously UK/US conventions, and even the Aus/US/UK differences: lit/lighted, got/gotten, 'or' spelling vs 'our' spelling, toward/towards, and so on. Do we need to standardise or accommodate different reader expectations now that global markets are handed to us on a plate? Or do we just ignore the differences and let the readers cope?

One of the first things I did with my editor was to create a style guide that defined my standards of grammar, syntax and spelling (as well as typographical issues such as the use of single or double quote marks, indented paragraphs vs block paragraphs and so forth). It's been invaluable.

One that I see, both in editing and in my reading, is similar to the homophone error. Some words sound similar enough that authors who aren't careful with definitions or spelling occasionally choose the wrong word, like detour when the context clearly shows that deter is what they meant. One that I've seen several times is confusion among prodigy, protege, and progeny. I also see quite a few misstated idioms or cliches, like "once and a while" rather than "once in a while."

Alan wrote:

Another editing issue that we might like to discuss is how writers are affected by the different regional practices, most obviously UK/US conventions"

Lol, back in the late 80s when I was the managing editor of Photomethods Magazine, my editor-in-chief was British. You should have heard some of the battles we had! It's true what they say: America and Great Britain are similar countries separated by a common language. :)

Alan wrote: "Hi, Dionne

There is little doubt that the services of an editor are invaluable for any writer. For self-published authors, there is, in some respects, even more pressure to produce flawless text; ..."

I do both types of editing for my clients at once as they are on a limited budget and can't go through two or three edits (the third being the proofread at the end). But some editors are only good at one thing. The copy editor corrects structural things such as punctuation, grammar, sentence structure and the creative editor or what I think you've called the literary editor, looks at consistency, characterisation, plot, word usage (as in is this the right word or can we do better), pacing, the overall flow of the narrative. It's important to have both. A recent example is a gentleman came to me to edit his children's book which had been through a copy editor. The first part of the book - 25,000 words, was earmarked to be one book and when I read it, there was no consistent story arc and no tension from start to finish. It was, to my mind, three separate stories, not to mention the age group target would not have sat down and read a book that long. His sentence structure and word usage was repetitious, and many of the sentences, while technically correct, were clumsy. I've given him back my edits, which were much more comprehensive than my predecessor's, and now he is reworking that section into 3 different stories. So, both types of editing are important.

I am new to this. How do I go about finding someone to edit my work. Is there a set fee per word? Page?

Skip wrote: "I am new to this. How do I go about finding someone to edit my work. Is there a set fee per word? Page?"

The best way is to get referrals from friends because there are a lot of shonky editors out there. I charge per hour. I do a sample edit and time how long it takes me and apply that to the word count. Some charge by the word or page.

Common problems we see the most:

Using 'that' too much
'That' is usually considered verbal fluff and often not necessary or can be replaced with 'which'. It's normally up to the writer to decide if keeping it helps the sentence to flow better. We usually recommend keeping 'that's to a minimum.

Use of semicolons
Ah semicolons! Those tricky little buggers. Many people simply do not know how to use them. Many readers do not know what to think of them. As our language is ever-evolving, rules change. We believe semicolons are going the way of the dinosaur. So we highly encourage writers to minimize the use of them. A GREAT page on semicolon usage can be found here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon

We would like to offer our services as well. We try to not only correct, but to teach our clients. And we are very affordable. Check us out & thanks in advance!
www.warnekereading.com
Proofreader/Editor

Warneke--Ha! I just got a ms. back from a proofreader who put in at least 100 "thats" I thought were entirely unnecessary. Plus a lot of semicolons. I guess it's all about your style. I prefer a lean, quick narrative style, but some people want everything to read like a textbook.

"Warneke--Ha! I just got a ms. back from a proofreader who put in at least 100 "thats" I thought were entirely unnecessary. Plus a lot of semicolons. I guess it's all about your style. I prefer a lean, quick narrative style, but some people want everything to read like a textbook." - Anne R.

Yeah...Grammar & the English language are not as unbending as they used to be. If you look at history you'll see it's always changing. Many of the rules today were not always the rules. Look at Middle English, it's practically a foreign language. We, at Warneke Reading, try to keep to what we think is important grammar. This boils down to anything which leads to clearer communication. But there will always be those grammar fans who hold on to their rules like a sinking Titanic. But I stand by what I said. I don't think many 'that's or semicolons are ever needed. In the end, it's always up to the author to correct or keep things the way they want them. It's their baby & we can only make suggestions.

I have to admit I pretty much stuck to my "no that" guns.

WArneke, I like that you mentioned 'teaching writers' as part of the process. My editor is the best teaching resource I have, and I see her as an amazing mentor. Writers get it wrong, but editors are in the position to show them how to do it right.

one of my pet peeves is seeing the wrong usage of affect and effect. I just read a book where the wrong word was used in the foreward. The same book also had a spot where there was not a smooth transition between paragraphs. I've seen that several times, it is like the new paragraph doesn't flow from the last one and doesn't make much sense. I think I've seen this mostly in self published books.

An editor is important!

"WArneke, I like that you mentioned 'teaching writers' as part of the process. My editor is the best teaching resource I have, and I see her as an amazing mentor. Writers get it wrong, but editors are in the position to show them how to do it right." - H.M.C.
Amen, amen!

Yes, I've seen that as well, Leslie!

What I find truly amazing is when the book blurb is not correct. Ugh! How can your draw picky readers in when something is wrong with your synopsis? Some people see errors in the blurb won't even bother with the book, no matter how good the story is.

IMHO It's the writer's job to tell a great story and an editor's job to make it more accessible to the reader.

Warneke wrote: "Common problems we see the most:

Using 'that' too much
'That' is usually considered verbal fluff and often not necessary or can be replaced with 'which'. It's normally up to the writer to decide i..."

Hi, I loved the semicolon explanation on Oatmeal.com... I just came across another good resource I wanted to share: www.grammar-monster.com

Thank you to Cvianna1 for the new grammar website. I bookmarked it and will go there if I need it. I work for a publisher sometimes in editing and she gave us her own set of rules for editing. When I am editing the most frequent problems are run on sentences and use of that. Many times you can take that out of the sentence and you don't need to replace it with anything else. The sentence is almost always stronger without that.

I edit everything from direct mail copy to encyclopedias and spot problem text in everything I read. (It's an occupational hazard.) My website includes a page with examples of errors I've come across in newspapers and magazines, many of them funny.

Hey all, I'm more author than editor. My last editing experience was as a college news paper copy editor some years ago. I'm in the process of writing a novel and need to refer to a minor character's ethnicity. I mention he is African American in my first reference, we still don't know his name at second reference. My question... Is it okay to refer to him as black without it being considered offensive? POV is first person and saying/thinking African American over and over seems cumbersome. The racial reference is merely a descriptor so the reader is not confused by who's speaking.

Wow Cvianna1, great question! And a difficult one.

Hmmm...Is his ethnicity integral to the story? Could you maybe describe his appearance in other ways, like saying he has dark hair or mocha skin? I've seen these types of descriptions used for African American characters in some novels. I thought it was nice the writer was merely describing their appearance like any other character. Sometimes if you take the time to note someone is Black or African American, but don't mention all the other characters' races, it can be seen as inadvertently racist. I'm NOT suggesting you are, please understand. Just what I have read and thought sometimes. Rule of thumb: just treat or describe him as if he were any other race. Describe his looks, what he's wearing, his mannerisms, etc. These should be sufficient to differentiate him from other characters.
Hope this helps!

Dan wrote: "One that I see, both in editing and in my reading, is similar to the homophone error. Some words sound similar enough that authors who aren't careful with definitions or spelling occasionally choos..."

How about "to all intense and purposes" when they mean "intents and purposes?" I've also seen "intensive purposes." That one was my favorite.

Hi there! Just popping in to see if any of you editors might have a suggestion where a new guy starting out might get some assistance. I did quite a bit of line and content editing in college, and worked in coverage/correction/continuity of scripts for a film production office after that. However, its been a good 18 years since I've done any professional editing, and clearly, my 'red pen and highlighter' method is no longer up to par. Any suggestions of how one might bone up on current 'tech of the day' methods of marking/editing/noting an epub manuscript? I'm messing about with Calibre editor now, but it seems to leave much to be desired. Its also possible I just haven't figured out the bells and whistles, yet. ;) You lot seem friendly, so I hoped one of you might offer a suggestion for a useful resource. I've spent days (quite literally!) hunting online, and have yet to find the right sort of resource. Thanks so very much! And do forgive me if this isn't the right spot for such a question. This group seemed the most suited that I could track down.

lol... I"m sorry, that "intense and purposes" just cracked me right up.

I have done some professional editing and I am now working with an editor for my line edits. At all times it seems editors use Word with Comments. If you know Word,then you click on Insert you will see New Comment. This highlights the word or words on which you are commenting and then the comment is in the margin in color. I receive my edits with comments in the margin. This is easy to learn and I have edited several books this way. I hope this helps you. You don't need to use any other programs

Barbara wrote: "I have done some professional editing and I am now working with an editor for my line edits. At all times it seems editors use Word with Comments. If you know Word,then you click on Insert you will..."

Thanks so much, Barbara! Yep, I got some great advice to use the Track Comments feature in word, which is I think the same thing you're talking about. I just finished my first job with it, though I'm sure I'm not using it to quite its full functionality yet... and its a dream! Thanks so much for your help!

Oh, you're welcome! It's so bad when you are frustrated and can't get an answer. So if I can help someone I will. Good luck as an editor.

One thing I see a lot of is the use of passive verbs, for example, "he had tasted" when "he tasted" is more efficient and conveys action. I also see a good amount of inconsistent/incorrect use of hyphens, when to spell out numbers and time of day, etc. But, that's what I am here to help correct!

Erika I think you're talking about the use of past perfect tense instead of simple past tense (not passive voice, which would be "the food was tasted.") I see this so often! I have wondered recently what drives it, has there been a change in verbal language?

I also see a large amount of repetition. This can be the same word used several times within a few sentences, or it can be the repetition of a concept, action, or quote from earlier in the book. I always query for those, as I don't want to interfere if my author is using it for effect, but I have never encountered repetition as anything other than an 'oops.' You can only hold so many details in your head! Sometimes they get jumbled up on the page.

I too have encountered issues with repetition when editing clients' manuscripts. I am not down on authors who struggle with this, however, since it is a mistake anyone can make. I have also encountered the old its/It's problem, "dessert" where "desert" was meant, and my favorite, "ATM machine", to name but a few. The last is redundant grammar because the acronym "ATM" stands for "Automated Teller Machine", and so the extra "machine" is excess baggage. (I do feel this is okay for character dialogue, however, since "ATM machine" is used in everyday speech.) As Sonnet notes, there is a jumble of things in your head while writing, and they all do not flow perfectly from your brain through your hands and onto the printed page. Luckily, that is where we editors come in to help sort things out. :-)