Struggling Writers discussion

This came up in another topic and it made me think. What do you guys think about nudity being allowed/not allowed on covers?

It depends on the content and if it's appropriate.

Under 18 Speaking Here: I have mixed feelings. On one hand, most of us don't want to see that, especially if we don't read stuff like that. HOWEVER, although nudity on covers is inappropriate to me and others my age, if we see it, we know for sure what the content is. Personally, if I pick up a book and don't realize the content is erotic, that sort of ticks me off. I can handle it, but 99% of the time, I'm not going to choose to read that. Unless it is very important to the story line.

So anyways, mixed thoughts on that.

♪ Tara ♪ wrote: "Under 18 Speaking Here: I have mixed feelings. On one hand, most of us don't want to see that, especially if we don't read stuff like that. HOWEVER, although nudity on covers is inappropriate to m..."

That does irritate me (when books that are erotic don't appear as such, even in the blub sometimes). I feel like if a book is going to be erotic (I don't mean just a little hanky panky) it should it least have some hint of its content.

Back to the question though. I think in the appropriate setting it should be allowed. I think allowing things that you would see on the cover of adult magazines would be fine, as long as the books aren't going to be displayed as you walk in the door of a bookstore (like Barnes and Nobel). However, having them where you would expect them to be would be fine. Displaying books that have covers that could be classified as pornographic should not be displayed where those under 18 can view them. More shadowed images though should be able to appear on covers that are going to be displayed in the view of those under 18 (most of the Harlequin romance covers are this way).

Nudity on covers can be compared to nudity in oil painting of the Old Masters, photo art and other artistic expression -

I had a cover suppressed on Amazon about a year ago - it was an illustration - not a photo -

I have, however, used nude photos and illustrations on Amazon - they permit vintage nude photos and in other cases - I write as Jerome Brooke and Juliet Baranne - jerry

My whole take on this is that I DONT think the covers should contain nudity, only because when I'm browsing in the library, I don't exactly want to see that. The content inside, however, I could care less about, since I won't be reading it.

Libraries and bookstores contain art books with containing nude oil paintings by the Old Masters, books containg art photos including nudes, marriage manuals and so forth -

However, Amazon does display the nude covers on the screen - which is a problem - in bookstores the book has to be opened up to display the nudity -

On Amazon, nudity is often permitted - for example, I use vintage nude photos - but I have also had one cover with nudity suppressed -

So - what are the limits with Amazon and Smashwords ?

I'm not really sure...have you tried contacting amazon and asking?

They reply no porno videos and the obvious - and confirm that they block title word and keyword searches at times - I suspect this is all random and inconsistent - surprise !

Jerome wrote: "They reply no porno videos and the obvious - and confirm that they block title word and keyword searches at times - I suspect this is all random and inconsistent - surprise !"

I think scantily clad is much more erotic than total nudity-but the covers of books on Amazon can be viewed by all ages, therefore I won't be using nudes on any of my covers...ever! I have an 11 year old to protect!

I may be using the scantily clad cartoon photograph that is on my photographs for the cover of GOD!

Though I have no problem with nudity or the nude form, male or female, I feel that blatant nudity for the sake of nudity is only there for shock value.
I am a firm believer in freedom of expression and am against all forms of censorship simply to conform to an outdated form of morality. That said, I am also a firm believer in a parent's right to shield or protect their children from things they feel are too much information for their age whether I agree with them or not. In the US 18 is the basic age of maturity and after that what people view should be left up to them without interference from any sort of censorship.
We as Authors, publishers and readers should be able to walk the line of making our covers convey our intent without slapping people in the face with the content if society as a whole feels it is not suitable for all ages. I have seen many erotic covers that show no real objectionable body parts but still use nude models. These pictures or covers do not show anything more than some of the sports mags that have been published and pushed on television.
This seems like a common sense line, at least until the government goes after the interior of a book.
Kay.

K.V. wrote: "Though I have no problem with nudity or the nude form, male or female, I feel that blatant nudity for the sake of nudity is only there for shock value.
I am a firm believer in freedom of expressio..."

Well said Kay!

I personally don't see why nudity would be necessary on a book cover.

One question is : what are the limits ? I see nudity on many covers - and I use vintage nudes photos and other types of revealing images pn my own books -

So - what does Amazon allow ?

Jerome wrote: "One question is : what are the limits ? I see nudity on many covers - and I use vintage nudes photos and other types of revealing images pn my own books -

So - what does Amazon allow ?"

Ask them - they should be able to furnish you with guidelines, or use less revealing images, sexy doesn't necessarily mean nude. Nude is how we enter the world, dressed is how we leave it, compromise I think is the name of the game.

Jayda wrote: "I personally don't see why nudity would be necessary on a book cover."

No, Jayda, me neither, scantily clad or a strategically draped sheet on a naked body is sensual, total nudity isn't!

Guidelines are not always applied consistently - surpise ?

Covers with nudity are on Amazon in the hope of higher sales - the same with erotic content - suggestive book blurbs - and sexy titles - welcome to 2013 !

Jerome wrote: "Covers with nudity are on Amazon in the hope of higher sales - the same with erotic content - suggestive book blurbs - and sexy titles - welcome to 2013 !"

Wouldn't sell the book to me, 50 shades cover wasn't sexy, nor where there nudes...and it sold millions...why I have no idea! I am not a prude, far from it, I just don't think it's a ploy that works. The only people it would attract would be perverts, and voyeurs!

Jerome wrote: "Guidelines are not always applied consistently - surpise ?"

No Jerome, nothing in this world surprises me any more - sometimes shocks the hell out of me...mais c'est la vie!

C'est la guerre !

Jerome wrote: "C'est la guerre !"

Avec qui, et pourquoi? La vie et beaucoup trop court et comme ca c'est mieux de faire l'amour pas la guerre!

Yeah - like they say in Warsaw !

Jerome wrote: "Yeah - like they say in Warsaw !"

Mais non, comme nous faison ici, en France!

Sorry, sometimes I slip in to my second language and forget that not everyone speaks French. Ten years total immersion in a foreign country and that's what happpens. It's one of the reasons I started writing again, so I didn't forget how to use English! My French friends all want me to write a book in French - but I know my French is far from good enough. Even though when I write in English I translate into French in my head. I may give a short story a go, in the future, who knows.

Francais - la langue d'amour, tres chaude et tres sexy! Very ooh la la!

About the whole nudity on covers debate...

I don't know, I guess that COMPLETE nudity isn't acceptable. Like some other members already said, I think that not everyone should be subjected to seeing that. The content inside is all at the reader's discretion--if they choose to read it, they can, and they chose to put themselves in situations where they read that stuff.

But for everyone else who isn't interested in that stuff, having to see it on a book cover and being subjected to it isn't really fair.

*shrugs* My opinion.

Seems to be everyone's opinion except Jerome's, Jessica. There is a fine line between Erotica and Porn, I think the line should be widened - the word erotic in the Thesaurus - aphrodisiac, arousing, seductive, sensual, voluptuous - nowhere does it say it's meant to shock - one can acheive so much with good description, without using shock tactics. Keep the heavy stuff on the top shelf where it belongs - safely out of the reach of the vulnerable!

My opinion and I'll stand by it.

I totally agree, Sarah! :)

Jessica wrote: "About the whole nudity on covers debate...

I don't know, I guess that COMPLETE nudity isn't acceptable. Like some other members already said, I think that not everyone should be subjected to seein..."

Exactly! I think that everyone should be able to express themselves (as long as you aren't harming anyone/yourself) but, there should be protection for those who don't care to see it. As Sarah said, "keep the heavy stuff on the top shelf where it belongs".

I agree.

Yes, Jessica and Irene, couldn't have said it better! :)

Jerome wrote: "Guidelines are not always applied consistently - surpise ?"

I was rereading the thread with the new posts and sort of realized something that Jerome was trying to get at but seemed to be glossed over by the rest of us, myself included.
If I understand Jerome's posts, and he can correct me if I got it wrong, His question was not so much about using nudity on the cover but why is it Amazon, in particular, has no real solid rules that they apply to all books across the board. I know my publisher is wrestling with this concerning the content of the next book in my series, since the guidelines for content are almost as murky and confusing as they are for covers.
I agree with Jerome in that Amazon needs to have specific guidelines that are spelled out and apply them to every author, not just to the indies and lower selling volumes.
Though I have not searched through Amazon looking for nude covers, I cannot speak to if they even exist, but it wouldn't surprise me.

K.

I was not concerned about the question of the morality of nude covers - but was concerned about practical matters -

What are the limits for Amazon ?

I see lots of nudity on Amazon -

As a practical matter, I use nudity on covers - but use vintage photos and other types of photos which Amazon permits -

jerry

I say go for it. It certainly won't be for everyone, but then what is?

Interesting.

Depending on the cover and the story Amazon US will allow some uncovered breasts though Amazon Japan will do the virtual brown wrapper if the buyer is under 18.

All very interesting perspectives. However, since most erotica readers are female, I would expect that a creative, enchanting cover would be more desirable that an all-out nude cover.(unless it was the chest-up portrait of a man). I mean, pornographic photos/videos were originally suited for males, if I'm right? I'm just saying that I would rather pick up E.L.James' mask-sequined cover than some unoriginal racy cover. It's no surprise the limitations that Amazon presses on covers, and to me, it's for the best.

What makes me metaphorically shake my head is that while a book cover brings up this level of debate and discussion, when I was abroad in Spain it was common to see topless women on regular magazine covers, in newspaper ads, in television ads, and even on billboards. It was not shoved in my face, but it also was not unheard of. I even have a psychology of sexuality textbook from one of my classes when I studied in Spain that has a stylized, abstract color drawing of a couple holding each other nude while in bed. It is very abstract but by the color of the drawing one can surmise what is going on.

What I find more disturbing is media examples of raw, primal violence, such as al Queda beheading videos or images of suicide bombers used as recruiting materials. Tastefully designed nudity or boudoir imagery for a cover would not bother me in the least because it is at least a positive presentation.

As for mass market editions of written works, I could take or leave a book cover. I care more about how the book is written, what others think of it, and if I feel connected to the characters. However, overdone graphic designs that look like warmed over redraws of the same design, or the same stock image, or the umpteenth time I have seen a certain cover design (font, layout, background, and so forth)bore me more than entice me to a work.

Also, nebulous guidelines that make it hard for an author and book cover designer to determine what is allowed or not makes things even worse. I would rather there be a long list of qualities that are either allowed or not, but not inconsistent enforcement.

Perhaps instead of what I put on the cover of anything I publish I should simply have a plain cover with only the title and my name. It saves time and effort while focusing on what is inside.

Due to some problems - I now use Amazon art for covers - but Amazon often does allow nudity.

Scantilly clad bodies are so much more sexy than nudes for me. They hold the promise of things to come!

Many Amazon art images are suggestive and work OK.

Aaron the Werebear Writer wrote: "What makes me metaphorically shake my head is that while a book cover brings up this level of debate and discussion, when I was abroad in Spain it was common to see topless women on regular magazin..."

This is mildly dragging things off topic, but the US is really uptight about displays of sexuality (not exactly the right phrase but I think you get the idea?).

Like a friend of mine who has lived all over Europe says that the US was the first place she had been that ALWAYS had gender specific bathrooms and had such an issue with nudity. She says that when you go to the beach at home it's really not that uncommon to see topless women or people who are completely nude.

I know there are other countries that are more uptight about it than the US, but Amazon is a US based company and so I can understand why they have the rules they do.

It really makes you think about how something is labeled taboo though, it is all based on what society perceives bad.

I personally don't have an issue with nudity on book covers. I think that they shouldn't be readily available for younger people to look at simply because of the world we live in can promote unhealthy ideas about things.

I think some of what is taboo for American book covers makes little sense. We promote Victoria's Secret ads on television and in malls. Yet we demonize images or live breastfeeding in public even with it being covered up with a wrap. We can have news images or criminal justice textbooks with cuffed suspects prominently displayed yet not allow fictional handcuffed wrists.

The only universal taboo across cultures is incest but what is defined as such may vary.

Leaving something to the imagination is fine. But even a tastefully done nude is just as sensual.

Perhaps we should have plain black and white covers.

Amazon now restricts access to erotica -

after the hit list come up they say "do you

want to see the adult titles too?"

This likely caused a stir in some quarters when it came out--mid-60s, I think:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/88/0d/93/88...

Glory Road is mainstream science fiction all the way, from a mainstream publisher, and would have been on paperback racks in corner stores pretty much everywhere (I probably bought and read the book in grade nine or ten). It's unclear why similar cover art would be an issue for anybody today, aside from deeply religious conservatives who have little tolerance for most literature anyway.

Mark wrote: "This likely caused a stir in some quarters when it came out--mid-60s, I think:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/88/0d/93/88...

Glory Road is ma..."

I remember that book. I may still have it around somewhere. Nice piece of art.