Haaave Ya Met... discussion

Hello, Everyone, I hate talking about myself, but I'll try though forgive all the facetiousness, only way I can do it...
Well, my great intellect has come to the conclusion - at the pace of a tortoise - that there's been a bit of a regression in feminist approaches to reading matter - hence an apparent resurgence of the traditional historical romance writers, full of unquestioned gender roles, etc...(Note I'm not saying that modern historical romance writers necessarily write like this, I mean the traditional ones who have come back into print). Well, it seems to me that this can be a two way sword, a spoof might be an interesting way of questioning the values, assumptions (and the class assumptions as well) that go with this genre. I'd like to make it clear; I'm not advocating some altertnative history denying that overhwelmingly sexist attitudes and gender divisions have existed in history and were habitually taken as 'natural', what I am advocating is that the uncritical presentation of them by an author can be problematic.
That's what I'm writing on at the moment, hopefully subtly.
This is my second 'Cod' my first was cod Gothic - paranormal historical romance with shade of Ann Radcliff and Dracula -
[[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16...]]
and I took some time off to write another paranormal, all about an author haunted by his character, that should be out soon.
The theme I am using for 'Ravensdale' is as hackneyed as can be - Disinherited Heir to an Earldom Condemned by his Rakish History Accused of Murder Due to Connivance of Wicked Cousin Turns Highwayman and I'm having great fun with it. Needless to say, as swaggering and handosme a young buck as every stepped from the pages of conventional historical romance and an unromantic heroine...
Anyone else interested in subverting the genre?

Sounds like it might be a cool idea but I think you'd have to tread carefully when looking to apply modern morals/viewpoints to the distant past and avoid branding characters as inherently bad or good based on how they view gender relations.

The minute an author tries to tell the reader what the reader should think about a particular character and their actions/values things start to go downhill.

Let the characters do their thing and let the reader come to their own conclusions about them. So if you want to deal with some sexiest themes, have sexiest characters doing sexiest things and other characters struggling against these actions/viewpoints. But DON'T tell the reader this guy is a 'baddie' because he has such and such a viewpoint and such and such is a ‘goodie’ due to them having a more modern viewpoint.

Also you may have a sexiest, or several sexiest male characters or female characters that believe other female characters should only carry on in a particular manner, (getting a job/talking about politics is vulgar/not fitting for a lady etc etc) but again I'd be careful not to simply label such characters as inherently bad. If you are raised in a certain way and follow a certain viewpoint believing that viewpoint is correct does not necessarily make you bad.

So honestly if I was doing something like this I'd like to mix things up a bit and perhaps have a particular character being blatantly chauvinistic/sexiest BUT have that character as a 'goodie' as it were ... or at least a gray character. Maybe even have such a character as your MC and that would be both unusual and perhaps allow for growth of said character towards a more open-minded less chauvinistic view as the story progresses

D.S. wrote: "Sounds like it might be a cool idea but I think you'd have to tread carefully when looking to apply modern morals/viewpoints to the distant past and avoid branding characters as inherently bad or g..."

DS, welcome to discussion. Very interesting points, and I know just what you mean.

I'm very careful about author moralising,and one of the points I always make in my novels - not through the narrator holding forth, lol - is that the whole issue of 'good' and 'bad' is so fluid and difficult in the 'real world' or in a good novel, which has to have realistic features, even in spoof.
I flatter myself I did a reasonable job on my last spoof of paranormal romance in making the Feminist Made Simple message very subtle, most people didn't comment on it! In fact, some women complained that my heroine there 'didn't have backbone till late on in the story' and was 'too besotted and guillable' because she thought as an eighteenth century women did, and believed in obeying the man you've married in most things, except if he was urging you to go against your conscience (like Pamela) which was her get out. Her lady's maid, though, was much less ladylike, and stood up to the man vampires doughtily with a slap in the face, though not at all cerebral about it...

My complaint is not that these traditional romances which seem to have a new lease of life portray life as it was back then, but that they don't portray it ironically enough (partly because they were written largely before 1970).

All my male characters of that age are sexist, I'm afraid; I don't portray them without sympathy, though; rather, I use comedy; that was how people thought, unfortunately; just think of a little later on and how sexist Lord Byron was - Shelley is the only man I can envisage from that age who wasn't...

I do find it worrying that some women actually like potential rapists as 'heroes' (yuk, yuk, yuk!) and see it as somehow romantic. I find that horribly regressive. some of these old historical novels don't think that is so bad; I find that modern women can find such characters attractive disturbing...I'd have to portray such a man as a jerk, as even Mr B in that sequel to 'Pamela' 'Pamela in her Exalted Condition' (ridiculous title) defends himself against having ever intended to go through with rape (though I think Richardson changed his views under female pressure).

My heroine of my spoof Regency has what would be regarded as odd ideas circa 1793. As the whole thing is comic, I hope that people will be laughing so much that the feminist message just sort of creeps up on them.

I think it sounds like great fun. I'd definitely read it. Mad Men is dark satire about a not-so-golden age when women were furniture and men were chain-smoking, alcoholic jerks. Why not give the Regency the same treatment?

Thanks a lot, Anne! I'll have to chase up on that 'Mad Men'

Great to talk to you,as I see that you know what you are talking about from your record.

Lovely suggestions, and I can't wait to get down properly to my Regency Romance Spoof - I'm doing some longhand over early morning tea, but at the moment it's horrible editing for me of the last - 'Aleks Sager's Daemon' before I can really get down to the Cod Regency Romance.

Lol, 'Aleks Sager's Daemon' is all about a character haunting his author; I hope I'm not haunted by swaggering circa 1793 patriarchs...

Love that phrase, 'women were furniture'! Lol!

A lot of people don't seem to get that Mad Men is satire and they think it's all about the mid-century clothes and the Madison Avenue lifestyle. But the subtext is certainly that women were treated very badly and the men--the rich ones anyway--were self-destructive monsters. Not everybody gets the idea of an anti-hero, but I love seeing/reading things like that.

Anne R. wrote: "A lot of people don't seem to get that Mad Men is satire and they think it's all about the mid-century clothes and the Madison Avenue lifestyle. But the subtext is certainly that women were treated..."

Sounds good and subtle, Anne! Definitely on my reading list now.

Uh-oh. Full disclosure. Just a TV show. You can get it on Netflix. I have me a TV habit too. :-)

Anne R. wrote: "Uh-oh. Full disclosure. Just a TV show. You can get it on Netflix. I have me a TV habit too. :-)"

Lol, Anne, I am losing touch with everyday life, with all this hunched-over-pc=screen madly stuff. Would we get that here in the UK?

It looks as if it's on Sky TV. http://www.tvguide.co.uk/titlesearch....

Thanks, Anne. Would you believe, awkward cuss that I am, that I don't have Sky (objections to Rupert Murdoch)? But I will try and get a friend to record it for me...

For any interested in that spoof Regency Romance - 'Ravensdale' is now published.
[[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...]]