Tudor History Lovers discussion

Hi guys!

Has anyone read Diane Haeger's book, I, Jane?

I'm a bit interested in reading it since it features Jane Seymour, the most underrated Tudor wife. I read reviews and it seems like a lot of people didn't like the potrayal of Anne Boleyn in it (undoubtedly, the favourite Tudor wife).

If you're reading a book from the point of Jane Seymour as an Anne Boleyn fan, would you be able to separate your love for Anne and realize that Jane probably had a very different opinion of her? Or would you be too distracted by the Anne hate?

I ask this because I am currently writing a Jane novel and I feel like sometimes my view on Anne comes across too harsh. It's difficult, because while I love Anne, I suspect that Jane didn't, so while I strive to be as accurate as possible, I don't want to turn off any readers, either.

Thoughts?

Anne quite frequently seems to be the favorite wife. I am biased because I don't particularly care for her either. I think if you were Jane it might be difficult to like or respect Anne.

I do enjoy Anne, but I like all the Tudor wives, they all have different aspects that make me like them. However, I believe Jane Seymour wouldn't have been an Anne fan for a multitude of reasons but the backlash I,Jane has received has made me pause. I don't want to lose readers because Anne is being "vilified", but at the same time, if I'm going to be accurate, I need to have Jane look down on Anne.

Gah! Difficult.

Good King Henry did like variety in his choices of queens, didn't he?

I love Anne. She is definitely my favorite of the wives. That said, however, I enjoy reading about all the wives, fiction and nonfiction. I find the different perspectives fascinating! Bashing of and vilifying Anne is a huge turn off for me, though. Nothing wrong with a little snubbing, but I agree it is a delicate balance.

I don't mind a negative portrayal of Anne (or of any of the wives) as long as it's plausible based on the known facts. In Erickson's book, the portrayal of Anne was so one-note as to be unbelievable--it was impossible to see the appeal she had for Henry. For that matter, in Erickson's novel, Jane wasn't all that appealing either.

The only novel about Jane I've really enjoyed is Frances Clark's from many years ago. I'd love to read a good novel about Jane, as I find her intriguing, so I'm looking forward to yours!

EDITED: Sorry, I just realized you were talking about Diane Haeger's novel about Jane, not Erickson's. I don't remember much about it, except that I found it better than Erickson's.

Susan wrote: "I love Anne. She is definitely my favorite of the wives. That said, however, I enjoy reading about all the wives, fiction and ..."

So, as a reader, would you be able to separate yourself from Anne and read objectively if the novel is written from first person (Jane), or would you just not bother reading at all?

I'm trying to figure out a way to entice Anne fans to read my book, but I fear they will hate it because it's from Jane's perspective so as much as I (the author) love Anne Boleyn, Jane wouldn't.

GAH!

Oh, I would definitely read it provided it weren't focused solely on Anne bashing. I'm sure Jane wouldn't have liked her...what wife praises the former wife? I'm sure Anne wasn't gracious and loving to her lady in waiting who also happened to be her husband's mistress.

I am sure your book will not center on Anne, as Jane was fascinating in her own right. The Anne portion of Jane's life was brief, and there is so much more to tell!

I don't mind a negative portrayal of Anne either. I think that if you are a truly admirer of the Tudors and history itself, writer or reader, you have to be objective. You will find admirers and fans of your work because you are a serious writer. I like all six wives of Henry VIII, each one of them is interesting and special, and each one of them is different, so you cannot divide someone and put aside, they are all connected in every way. I like Jane Seymour and I do agree that she is the most underrated Tudor wife. She had destiny which is also tragic. She gave Henry a son, reconcile Mary with her father and I believe that she would be very good Queen but her life was sadly short. Anne also had very tragic fate, her end was more tragically because the way she died and because she was unfairly accused.
I would like to see more books about Jane, I think she deserved it. Jane, in my opinion, didn't like Anne, there were totally different persons, with different personalities, but she didn't hate her I presume. Anne also didn’t like Jane, maybe stronger because her position at that time was weak and I suppose she was vulnerable. Jane and Anne were fighting for position and favor of the King, backed-up by their families who were very ambitious and eager for power. I’m very glad that you are writing a novel, especially this about Jane, from her perspective. I wish you all the best.

Well said!

Thanks Susan!

I read I, Jane and LOVED it even though it bashed Anne. Anne is also my favorite, but i think that each wife deserves their own story even if it doesnt portray the other wives in the best light. There are even some books written about Anne that don't portray her in the best way that are still good reads.

Kelly wrote: "I read I, Jane and LOVED it even though it bashed Anne. Anne is also my favorite, but i think that each wife deserves their own story even if it doesnt portray the other wives in the best light. Th..."

This is a really great way of putting it. People don't expect Anne to report favourably on Catherine of Aragon. It would be silly to assume that Jane would speak highly of Anne, when Jane was a Catherine supporter.

It's all about being objective as a reader.

I haven't read a lot about Jane - I would think she was in a great shadow of both Mary and his wife Anne Boleyn there isn't much written about her having other pregnancies other - than Edward

Hi,

Haven't read 'I,Jane' but I don't mind unfavourable portrayals of Anne. I think she had some unlikeable qualities but I think I would want the author to get across that despite these, it does seem it was likely she had charisma and intelligence. Otherwise you can't explain why Henry would have gone to such extreme lengths to marry her and waited so long. I think overall Anne has been portrayed as a strong,feisty woman and Jane as docile,the antidote to Anne but Mantel's portrayal definately gave her more credit. I suppose all historical characters have their good and bad sides and it's about creating a rounded character that contains both to make them credible as the human beings they were. I don't think it would be a surprise that Jane didn't like Anne as it doesn't appear they had much in common in terms of the type of people they were. Good luck with it!

Jane never had any other pregnancies besides Edward as she died of puerperal fever after Edward was born. I love Anne and always find anything about her fascinating. I think it would be interesting to see things from Jane's point of view or any of the other wives for that matter, especially considering none of them were made queen by the church, Anne was the last to actually be queen in the, I guess, legal sense. My point with that random blurb was, do you think maybe the following queens, minus maybe, Anne of Cleves would have been jealous of Anne Boleyn because she was the last true queen, Henry VIII had.

Melanie wrote: "do you think maybe the following queens, minus maybe, Anne of Cleves would have been jealous of Anne Boleyn because she was the last true queen, Henry VIII had. "

I think Jane believed she would be crowned Queen after she bore him a son. I think that was well enough known and so she didn't put any pressure on it. She knew what she had to do in order to become Queen. (Whether or not she truly wanted to become Queen... that's up for debate). Had Jane survived, I think he would have crowned her.

I think Anne of Cleves probably believed she would be Queen but probably never felt comfortable enough to mention it and I don't know how confident her advisors were.

I doubt Kathryn Howard thought about it much.

As for Katherine Parr, I haven't read enough to know what she thought. However, she was incredibly smart and would have made a good Queen (probably when he wouldn't crown her, ha).

I believe Jane would have been crowned Queen as well. She gave Henry the only thing that would secure the monarchy retaining rule. From what I have read of Katherine Parr she did not want to become Henry's wife so she probably had no aspirations for a crown. As soon as Henry died she went to the country and married Thomas Seymour as quickly as possible.

I agree with the above, I can't see anyone being too jealous of Anne especially considering that they knew her end. If anything I think Anne may have inspired fear in the subsequent queens, as she showed the fickleness of the king's affections and how dangerous it was to be his queen. No wonder not many foreign princesses were keen on marrying him after Jane!I would be interested Annie in how you are going to portray Jane, did she actually want to marry King Henry and did she have genuine affection for him or was she a pawn of her family's ambitions and made the best of it?

It's actually a combination of both!

ok, that will be interesting and better for Jane than being coerced, I suppose where I think her reputation has suffered a little is that the affair/flirtation seems to have started behind Anne's back, but then Henry was hardly a man you could ignore if he took a fancy to you, I suppose!

Important to remember the different moral ethics of the time. Under feudalistic patronage, the honour of your action was not what you did, but for whom you did it. The "Gentleman of the Stool" was a man of high place, not because he kept the chamber pot, but because it was the king's chamber pot.

The position of king's confidante (a.k.a. lover) was accepted by society, as an honour. A subject hardly had the right to refuse. (Conflict with church policy about non-marital relations was quietly brushed aside, excepted, dispensed with for royalty as in many other things, like thou shalt not kill.)

Anne broke the mold by refusing to settle for a "left-handed arrangement", but demanding marriage.

Historical record supports that he never felt as much for any other woman. He certainly never gave another woman as much power again.

(P.S. Hope I'm permitted to mention here that I've just published my own first book-length non-fiction: "The Assassination of Michael Collins: What Happened At Béal na mBláth?"

Tudor history is my guilty self-indulgence. But what I learned there did come in handy in researching my own book on a totally different period.)

annie wrote: "I do enjoy Anne, but I like all the Tudor wives, they all have different aspects that make me like them. However, I believe Jane Seymour wouldn't have been an Anne fan for a multitude of reasons bu..."

Annie, I think you should write the book you want to write. As a writer myself, I do understand your concern about putting readers off, but you won't enjoy the writing process if you go against your instinct and that will translate into the finished product. Readers do like to be challenged and gain a new perspective. Things like that spark interesting debates.

And I think you're right. Jane herself, if we believe the history that paints her as meek and mild, may not have had strong opinions about Anne personally, but her brothers would certainly have told her what to think on purely political and religious grounds.

Most readers of Tudor fiction love Anne Boleyn, because she is interesting and sexy, divisive and intelligent, and most of all, tragic. It would be a hard act for any woman to follow.

Well said, Laura! :)

Laura wrote: "annie wrote: "I do enjoy Anne, but I like all the Tudor wives, they all have different aspects that make me like them. However, I believe Jane Seymour wouldn't have been an Anne fan for a multitude..."

Yes, I agree. The important thing is never censor yourself before you've even got it out of your head and onto the page. First just let it all spill out. You can decide later what works and what doens't.

Jane Seymour was not the entirely uninteresting milksop some suggest. I recommend Eric Ives' work. In his fascinating investigation of the political side of Anne's fall, he turned up evidence that at one point Jane tried to use her influence positively, to speak up to the king on behalf of a friend who was in danger from religious persecution. And Henry was on record indicating that she should keep her mouth shut, keep her place, if she didn't want to end up like Anne. Eric Ives

Anne was a dynamic personality who inspired a wide range of powerful reactions, from canonization to demonization. I'm an Anne fan, but would be entirely willing to see her from Jane's perspective. I think it would be really fertile ground to explore the complexity of these women, of their lives and their society.

Carry on!

Anne Boleyn is my favourite Tudor wife but I enjoy reading a negative portrayal of her as well. I think she was a complex lady who made herself a lot of enemies.

I would be really interested to read more Jane books where she isn't the 2 dimensional perfect timid wife who gave Henry his son. I think she was a lot cleverer and more calculating than people think - and of course, Anne was a rival, so she probably wouldn't have liked her, especially given their different religions etc.

To be true to Jane's voice, you would have to be harsh on Anne. After all, Jane's entire family despised and were in competition with the Boleyns for power at court. They also disagreed at a fundamental level on religion.

Like some others in this thread, I am fascinated by the stories of all of Henry's wives. I am not turned off by any one of them speaking ill of any of the others. What does turn me off is bad writing and poor research.

-Amanda

Bravo

My favorite Henry's wife is Anne Boleyn.But I love reading about all six of them.What really cross my mind is a fact (bearing in mind Henry's infidelity),could Jane be his last wife,if she wouldn't die at the childbirth,what do you think?

Izzy wrote: "My favorite Henry's wife is Anne Boleyn.But I love reading about all six of them.What really cross my mind is a fact (bearing in mind Henry's infidelity),could Jane be his last wife,if she wouldn't..."

Izzy he really seemed to love Jane and she provided him with the son he so wanted so being a romantic I think he may have stayed with her. Although I don't think he would have been faithful to her. Mind you I could be confusing the role of King Henry that Jonathon Rhys Meyers played in The Tudors. He was a much more likeable King Henry. In that series it portrays Henry as being very loving towards Jane and he was devastated when she died.

She gave him a son; if she had lived, I see no reason why he would have married again. (Faithful? That's another matter!)

The relationship with Jane didn't really have time to go sour -- she died too soon. Had she lived, though, I think she would have been relatively safe because she gave him son. But, who knows? Henry was so unpredictable! I doubt it would have been wedded bliss. And who knows what would have happened had both parents outlived Edward.

If Jane stayed true to her marriage vows and had lived on to have other children she would have been his last wife - with mistress for him during her pregnancy times

Anne broke the mold she wanted it all marriage, a son royal respect. She was the first to gamble and win the crown by ousting a reigning queen ( with the passion of Henry of course). This gave Jane's family the belief that Jane could do the same. I believe Jane was in some ways a willing pawn. She had seen what Anne could have and wanted the same only when Anne wanted marriage with Henry Katherine and he were living apart and Katherine was past child-bearing, this was not the same when Jane wanted marriage. I also think Jane wanted the same power and control she had seen Anne wield and Henry certainly put her in her place. I think Henry would have crowned Jane eventually and she became his "real wife" because she gave him a son and because she exhibited a very different personality than Anne.
In terms of underated wives I think Anne of Cleves fits that bill. I don't think she had any guile or underhanded schemes in mind trying to gain any power or position.

I have not read all the comments just the first but I just wanted to say a few quick thoughts:

I once read that Jane was Henry's favourite wife because she was the only one in succeeding to give him the son he so desperately wanted. Anne didn't like Jane and Jane didn't like Anne, from what I've read. I do like Anne and sometimes I can't seem to find books on other wives. Although I've always believed that Katherine of Aragon was Henry's true wife. My grade 12 history paper was on the Henry's wives, the only thing I remember is my opening quote: Divorced, Beheaded,Died,Divorced, Beheaded, Survived these are the fates of King Henry's VIII Wives. Also the few verses that got Henry out of his marriage with Katherine.

Krystal wrote: "I have not read all the comments just the first but I just wanted to say a few quick thoughts:

I once read that Jane was Henry's favourite wife because she was the only one in succeeding to give h..."

There is an excellent book called `Divorced Beheaded Survived - A Feminist Reinterpretation of the Wives of Henry VIII' by Karen Lindsey which was published in 1995. This gave a fresh and very readable account of Henry and his unfortunate women. You may enjoy it.

I have read the book 'Divorced Beheaded Survived' and would agree it is an excellent book giving readers a new interpretation on the wives of Henry.

Wow, what a concept!
Sounds like a must-read for "the 6 wives" enthusiasts.
Here's the Goodreads link.

There is a book by Suzanna Dunn called The May Bride which is about Jane Seymour. It seems to be getting positive reviews in the UK press. Has anyone read it?

I so appreciate all the comments! Very helpful as I write this book.

Personally, I think how harsh you are on Anne being a turn off would depend on how far back you start the story. If it's farther back than when Jane and her family intended for her to end up with Henry, I don't think they necessarily would have disliked each other. Anne would have seen here as just another lady in waiting suggested not just for her family's rank but for being her cousin. Anne might not have even thought of her as a possible rival because she was so different. If Jane was as kind and gentle as history likes to think, Anne may have been shocked because she wouldn't have thought Jane would stab her in the back with such a betrayal. Have may have had mixed feelings towards Anne, wanting to respect her queen, but also wanting to be with Henry. In the beginning, she may have admired Anne's strength, courage, and intelligence. She obviously followed her example in many ways! (Though she was able to see her mistakes and avoid them). Likewise their differences especially in regards to religion, may not have been such opposites as history paints. There is evidence that Anne may have been less protestant than traditionally thought, and is hard to know exactly what Jane's personal religious thoughts are. They had many things in common too: they both served Catherine, had ambitious families, were similar in age (if you favor the 1507 birth year for Anne), had childhood homes in the country, were still unmarried at ages most woman were mothers (maybe Anne even consoled her that things would turn out), etc. They may have shared stories of dealing with brothers and their fathers, of the differences between court and home life. And they'd have had no reason to dislike either when they serving Catherine prior to Anne catching Henry's interest. Much later, I'd expect some harshness in Jane's view of Anne, but the earlier your story begins, the less I'd expect in the beginning. I'm partial to Jane being a genuinely kind person who was true to get faith and didn't get caught up with the pettiness of court life. I'm a huge Anne fan and feel that sort of person would be a breath of fresh air to Anne. I would only worry about how you plan to tackle Jane's feelings towards Anne's execution. I dislike when she's portrayed as cold and uncaring towards it because it seems out of character for her to be so heartless.

This just my opinion anyway. Would love to read it either way! It's so hard to find books on Jane.

Yes, there's a lot of conventional wisdom about Jane's character; largely based on the necessity of deifying anyone who was mother to a monarch. Anne went from disgraced adultress to heroine entirely on the success of her daughter, Elizabeth (named after Anne's mother.)

I think it's safe to say that Jane has been less biographied than Anne. So I'm not familiar with what evidence survives of her personality at all. (Aside from the bit I mentioned above, from Eric Ives work on Anne, that she tried to speak up once for a friend who was facing execution.)

It's a characteristic of chauvinistic society & history to make all women enemies, competitors, and totally miss the concerns they have in common. So I don't know if there's any evidence for Jane having an antipathy to Anne. If they both served Catherine of Aragon, and if Jane remained to serve Anne, that means Jane was not of the die-hard Catholic party that adhered to Catherine in her banishment from court. Jane served Anne, so that would have placed her in Anne's inner circle, as one of her intimate companions, at least to some extent.

There are indications that Jane's family quite aggressively schemed and thrust Jane forward. They told her what to do; and doing so, totally copied the way Anne responded to Henry's first advances. Made a point of refusing his gifts, refused to be a mistress, insisted on marriage, etc. Because they knew this had been successful before. That there were both personal and political tensions in Anne & Henry's relationship would have been common knowledge in court circles. Ambassadors knew it, and discussed with their governments back home, because it had an impact on what England's alliances were going to be. Everyone knew that Anne had failed to produce a male heir, and that this had been the whole point of Henry marrying her.

I don't know how much Jane herself had to do with anything, the extent to which she was just a dutiful, obedient daughter to her ambitious family, and obedient to her sovereign (if he cast his eye on a woman in his domain, she could hardly refuse.)

If she had any sense (and very likely she was at least no fool) she could not have been thoughtlessly dismissive of the woman who she had watched similarly raised up and then fatally cast aside.

(I hope you don't mind you don't mind my mentioning it, Annie (another Anne!)... But I'm a Goodreads Author myself, and I can't help thinking ... I can see the utility of having a thread like this, while you're working on your book.

And ... but ... If your book's a bestseller (as of course we all hope it will be) ... We will be credited in your Acknowledgements? If you use any of this outright, should the contributor get their .02% or whatever? Just a thought.)

Technically, Elizabeth was also the name of Henry's mother, so she could be named for both.

From all the research I have read, the Seymour family and the Boleyn/Howard families never really got on and Jane was put at court to serve Catherine. Her and Catherine shared the same faith and I've read a few different places where Jane was not close with Anne. Considering that Henry himself remarked how utterly Jane was from Anne, in all ways, I'm not sure how much they had in common and personally, I doubt Jane and Anne had a close friendship. Jane remained at court serving the queen because it was a) expected of her and b) an opportunity to find a husband and do well for herself. She didn't remain at Court with Anne out of a sense of duty and loyalty, in my opinion.

I enjoy reading the feedback, though!

I think it's quite possible that Elizabeth I was named after her grandmother, Elizabeth of York. Henry seems to have adored her.

Late to the party as I am, and yes another Anne-fan, I think you should give the reasons for distaste, dislike, or out-and-out hatred. What was Jane's opinion of Anne when they were both serving Catherine? If she was never close to Anne or disliked her French ways (which wasn't exactly uncommon), easy enough to have that distaste deepened into active dislike either by events or by her brother whispering political poison in her ear.

I think if you give solid reasons for why Jane was down on Anne, all but the most ardent "Blessed St Anne" types will understand.

Believe it or not,I too am writing a novel about Jane Seymour (I'm handing it off to get a critique at the end of this week - my birthday present to myself!). For me, there was no choice at all but to have her dislike Anne (and vice versa!). Not necessarily from the very beginning, but clearly once Henry showed interest....

Janet wrote: "Believe it or not,I too am writing a novel about Jane Seymour (I'm handing it off to get a critique at the end of this week - my birthday present to myself!). For me, there was no choice at all bu..."

Congrats on your novel! I'd love to discuss Jane with you! She's such an under-rated wife.

annie wrote: "Congrats on your novel! I'd love to discuss Jane with you! She's such an under-rated wife."

I'd love to! I've sent you a friend request - I think that's the way to contact people directly?

Susanna - Censored by GoodReads wrote: "I think it's quite possible that Elizabeth I was named after her grandmother, Elizabeth of York. Henry seems to have adored her."

Yes, of course, you're right. Both their mothers were named Elizabeth. Guess that made it a pretty natural choice.

Correct me if I'm wrong,... I think it was through Anne's mother that she was related to the powerful Howards / Dukes of Norfolk; who had a royal strain in their blood, (of Lancaster? York?) & were not above coveting the throne. So she was by no means a low-born consort for Henry.

S. wrote: "Susanna - Censored by GoodReads wrote: "I think it's quite possible that Elizabeth I was named after her grandmother, Elizabeth of York. Henry seems to have adored her."

Yes, of course, you're rig..."

If you trace the lineage back Anne was the great, great, great, great, great, great, great granddaughter of Edward the 1st through her mother's line. I'm not sure how far that goes towards being considered 'royal'. However not much stock was put into descendants through the female line and her mother did marry Thomas Boleyn, the first Earl of Wiltshire, who was first generation ennobled. Here's a family tree of the Howards' if you're interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukes_of...

Kimber wrote: "S. wrote: "Susanna - Censored by GoodReads wrote: "I think it's quite possible that Elizabeth I was named after her grandmother, Elizabeth of York. Henry seems to have adored her."

Yes, of course,..."

Yes, I was under the impression that Anne actually had a royal antecedent on her mother's side. But it's been a while since I read that, wherever it was.

"Times of action make boors into barons, and barons into boors." Female lines may have held no royal rights, and Anne's mother may have wed far beneath her. But hey ... it all culminated in more Howard descendants on the throne. So we must admit she did well.

Thanks for the link. The things they have on Wikipedia!