Miévillians discussion

Dear members, we've had a look at first two books in the Bas-lag series, Perdido Street Station and The Scar.

For those of us who haven't read Iron Council yet, (I notice a few members have read it already, and I do hope they'll weigh into the discussion with their thoughts) now is as a good a time as any to discuss the final book. We hope as many of you as possible will be able to make it if we have the discussion start on September 13, 2013.

Iron Council returns to New Crubozon, so if any of you have been missing the place, let's go on a nostalgic trip through the murky alleyways and intriguing highways of this fascinating city together. :)

Remember that our discussions never completely finish, so if September 13 is too soon for you, just pop into the discussion threads anytime that suits you.

Looking forward!

Hmmm, I was actually thinking about taking a pause from CM, as much as I love him, and reading a few things that didn't require quite so much work. Lazy, I know... But hey, it's not tomorrow, it is four whole days away. So even though I haven't had time to write my reviews of The Scar or River of Stars yet, I guess I can be even later if everyone else is game to start IC now.

Ruth wrote: "Hmmm, I was actually thinking about taking a pause from CM, as much as I love him, and reading a few things that didn't require quite so much work. Lazy, I know... But hey, it's not tomorrow, it ..."

Do keep in mind that we'll only be starting to read it theoretically on Friday, and start to discuss on Saturday/Sunday. I should have made that clearer, my bad. I think for this book we should do our "a few chapters at a time" approach like we did for Perdido street station.

I know it's very short notice, and I apologize for that. I was only planning to read it in November myself, but since Mievillians has been relatively quiet lately, I thought it might be a good idea strike while the iron is hot when while there's some interest in Bas-lag.

After Iron Council we'll be taking a long rest from CM because I think we've exhausted his good stuff for now? People don't seem to like Kraken very much, so we can look at some other authors after IC, I should say. :)

'strike while the iron is hot....' ! yes,I council you to!

BUT before we move on....dont you think that we have done more than enough to prove our devotion and sincerity as serious fans of China....

I believe the time is ripe for the penultimate discussion,with the master present in some form.That will surely wake everyone up!

Traveller,if you think it would be strategic,go ahead,contact him,arrange it!

and what do others think?

Magdelanye wrote: "'strike while the iron is hot....' ! yes,I council you to!

BUT before we move on....dont you think that we have done more than enough to prove our devotion and sincerity as serious fans of China....."

When we do that, we must arrange it far in advance, Mags. Nov/Dec will probably be a busy time for him, but on the other hand, he hasn't recently published anything, so it might actually be a good time.

I'm thinking around January might be a good time. I'd personally prefer to have read most of his oeuvre by the time we make such a big step, and I still have one or two books to go before I'd feel happy about that. Are you going to be around during January?

Hopefully I will be around .somewhere..

I am living in a bit of limbo....

and I do realize it will take some finessing,which is why I think it's a good idea to start now in making first contact.

I remember some discussion on the wisdom of letting him have access to evrything we have said,well,omitting all the drool,I think it would be intersting for him
an us

Traveller wrote: "I'd personally prefer to have read most of his oeuvre by the time we make such a big step, and I still have one or two books to go before I'd feel happy about that."

I second that we should make a somewhat larger dent. In particular Un Lun Dun would seem to be lacking, as it seems to be rather unique among his writings.

J. wrote: "Traveller wrote: "I'd personally prefer to have read most of his oeuvre by the time we make such a big step, and I still have one or two books to go before I'd feel happy about that."

I second that..."

Ah yes, Un Lun Don ,you are right but its a fast read

Now what about the Kraken.>
Anybody read it?
And why is that the name of the Russell Hoban fan club? Now there is someone worthy of much consideration,a fabulist and seer. Riddley Walker anyone?

I confess I have it on loan until the 18 from the library.And that I don't even like the thought of reading it.
Odd,come to think of it,considering my admiration for our CM

Nobody seems to like Kraken, so I'm quite curious about it.

I quite enjoyed Kraken myself! i think I reviewed it...Let's see... yes, here it is: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I'm surprised to hear people don't seem to like Kraken. Sounds fascinating to me. A little more grounded in reality like The City, which I liked.

I really liked Kraken too, fast-paced and fun to read.

Well, guys, what do you think of that we make the first spoiler-ish thread covering the first six chapters of the book? That way, we can cover the intro and the start of what happens back in New Crobuzon.

I've made a separate thread for when we want to start posting spoilers, up to end of chapter 6, here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

I'm linking to our first spoilerific thread, with the warning that members should only enter the thread once they have read up to the end of chapter 6, lest spoilers scorch their eyeballs.

I wonder, are there any of us who haven't read Perdido Street Station yet? If there are, we might want to cover serious PSS spoilers in spoiler tags. (I made a few in the first spoiler-y thread, so please tell me if I should cover them up.)

There's not much of The Scar in IC, as far as I can see, but IC does seem to follow on from PSS, if not that it follows the main characters from PSS, that some of them are mentioned, and that we have the same background, which has now moved into more of a war-like setting.

Don't worry if you haven't read anything yet, we'll be sitting on the first two threads for quite a few days to give members the opportunity to catch up, and will only continue on to the next one when quite a few people have caught up.

If you're still far from chapter six but feel an itch to start posting, maybe this thread we're in now would do for that? Feel free to start with first impressions whenever you're ready...

I just started Chapter 6 this morning, and I'm glad that we're back in the city in more familiar locales. The puppet show hasn't quite yet starter, but it seems like it'll be a very nice chapter.

One thing which really bugged me about Cutter's chase/flight is that this man they're on the heels of is deliberately obscured to the reader, whereas every single character involves knows exactly who he is. Miéville even goes so far as to have Cutter address the mystery man by name at the end of Chapter 5, but we still don't get to know what that name happens to be.

I'll trust that there's a good reason for this extreme effort to keep us all in the dark, but to me it seems a little much.

Still, otherwise it was an exciting chase, and though we don't get to know much about Cutter's party, there was still a sense of relief that they came out of it, albeit less a few people.

On to Chapter 6!

J. wrote: "I just started Chapter 6 this morning, and I'm glad that we're back in the city in more familiar locales. The puppet show hasn't quite yet starter, but it seems like it'll be a very nice chapter.
..."

Patience, dear J! You wouldn't want to know whodunnit right at the start of a mystery novel, now would you? ;)

Seriously, though, I don't see it being a problem; you have to wait for a story to reveal itself, no?

In any case, I look forward to seeing you post in our first spoiler thread soon.

Keeping in mind, of course, that this thread we're in now, is to be a spoiler-free place for members to clock in before they launch into the full discussion itself.

..but it should be fine for initial impressions, and I see J is feeling rather frustrated. :D Any other members who felt things are starting out too slow? I actually almost had the opposite feeling, being used to Mièville treating us to lots of scenery in his prologues, though it usually isn't such a lot of varied scenery!

I mean here we're going from jungly bits to wetlands to the seaside to tundra to a sort of African setting, to...

Surely not just any wetlands, dearest Traveller, but palustrine wetlands! ;)

Yip! Very wetly wet. ;)

Out of interest's sake, a baobab tree (also called upside down trees), which is part of the scenery in the first chapters of IC:



I'd read somewhere that CM had worked in Africa for a while, which will account for his use of African terms such as 'kraal' and 'biltong' and 'veldt'; he obviously couldn't resist sticking those into IC; but I'm wondering how well this fits in with his setting.

Did you notice that he speaks of the moon having satellites? That very obviously sets Bas-lag in a universe of it's own; or at any rate, Bas-lag is not anywhere on earth, and is not a kind of alternate earth; it is very much a planet on it's own though strangely corresponding to earth in many respects, such as the fact that they have humans and mythological beasts and other animals to be found on earth.

Actually, re the moon and satellites: Generally, moons don't have satellites due to the fact that they are satellites themselves, and therefore caught in the gravitational pull of the larger body that they are moons of.

It is apparently possible, but keeping in mind that, anything orbiting around the moon would tend to have to deal with the gravity of the main planet, as well.

I can't see CM being careless about something like this, so I wonder if this indicates that this is a completely different universe with completely different natural laws.

That's a good catch. I think it's safe to say normal natural laws don't always apply: the existence of watercræft, slake-moths and thumaturgy as accepted "science" would suggest this at the very least. I would imagine that such satellites are nevertheless quite plausible given the right conditions, mind you.

After all, moons orbit planet which orbit stars which orbit galactic cores, et cetera, so why not moons of moons? For all we know that could be very common place around other stars. We're barely able to detect exoplanets as large as Jupiter: i'm sure there's lots more out there to see.

Traveller wrote: "Actually, re the moon and satellites: Generally, moons don't have satellites due to the fact that they are satellites themselves, and therefore caught in the gravitational pull of the larger body ..."

I was surprised I didn't know the answer to this question, and it turns out to be somewhat unexpected! There is an excellent summary here.

J. wrote: "That's a good catch. I think it's safe to say normal natural laws don't always apply: the existence of watercræft, slake-moths and thumaturgy as accepted "science" would suggest this at the very le..."

They have to be far enough away from the planet that they are orbiting, so that the planet doesn't make those moons moons of itself. So it has to be a very 'loose' moon, so to speak...

But yes, of course you are correct with thaumaturgy and watercræft, etc, I'm kind of just confirming that completely different rules apply. What I find confusing, are the similarities, not the differences, if you know what I mean...

Manny wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Actually, re the moon and satellites: Generally, moons don't have satellites due to the fact that they are satellites themselves, and therefore caught in the gravitational pull o..."

Only saw your post now: trust Manny to help out with the cosmology! Thanks, Manny!

Okay, so not so far-fetched after all, but still definitely not an alternate earth. Actually more akin to the world in the role-playing video game series The Elder Scrolls, where I recall that the moon has a few (I think two?) moons.

They also have humans, but some very strange and un-earthly animals too..

Nirn has two moons, Masser and Secunda. They're generally not very prominent in Skyrim's sky, but I think they're more visible in Morrowind...

Definitely not an alternate Earth, though, yeah...

Traveller wrote: "trust Manny to help out with the cosmology! Thanks, Manny!"

You're welcome :)

The history of the tidal drag argument is interesting. I am not completely sure about this, but as far as I know it was first suggested by Kant in his Universal Natural History. Smart guy, Kant.

Manny wrote: "Traveller wrote: "trust Manny to help out with the cosmology! Thanks, Manny!"

You're welcome :)

The history of the tidal drag argument is interesting. I am not completely sure about this, but as..."

Kant was pretty much a polymath, I'm starting to think.

Cosmology is so interesting, especially how much the theories and how much we know keeps changing at what to me, who doesn't read up on it often, seems quite a fast rate. (I'll never get on top of it).

I think I saw that you have read a Mièville book or two, Manny. From a cosmological POV, I'd say Embassytown with it's Immer was the most interesting one so far. Have you read it?

It still hasn't quite reached the top of my list, unfortunately...

The famous Manny list. You should pin it to your profile somehow...

It's ahead of The Hunger Games, anyway :)

I should bloomingwell hope so! ;)

Well, for some reason The Hunger Games is the one people always ask me about. That and Fifty Shades of Grey.

Manny, love or loathe it (I'm in the former camp), "Embassytown" is like no other work of fiction I've read: extraordinary ideas about language. Unlike some of Mieville's works, it's relatively short, so there's no excuse!

Still, at least it's ahead of THG (I'm sorry I wasted time on that one) and Fifty Shades (which I haven't touched).

I need to finish Burton's Arabian Nights and The Cambridge Handbook of Second Language Acquisition, but after that I'm tempted...

It's also the sort of book that would lend itself to the sort of creative review you (and a couple of others) do so well.

Just too much on my list at the moment :)

I absolutely adored Embassytown. It's up there with Neal Stephenson's Anathem as a novel which affected me to my core---reading it was something akin to a spiritual experience for me.

It's interesting that, like Anathem, it is so polarizing. My father couldn't stomach fifty pages of it, and my brother didn't read more than ten before he gave up. My girlfriend really liked it, though, so I know I'm not entirely crazy. ;)

Manny wrote: "Just too much on my list at the moment :)"

That's better than the two obvious alternatives!

(I now feel a little guilty for going too far off-topic, in a discussion of a book I'm not even reading.)

J. wrote: "I absolutely adored Embassytown. It's up there with Neal Stephenson's Anathem as a novel which affected me to my core---reading it was something akin to a spiritual experience for me.

It's inte..."

I again, couldn't get through 40 pages of Anathem, but I did like Embassytown very much.


Cecily wrote: "(I now feel a little guilty for going too far off-topic, in a discussion of a book I'm not even reading.) .."

No worries at all...at least we're not getting to feel lonely like with some of the other book discussions around here... :D :P

J. wrote: "I just started Chapter 6 this morning, and I'm glad that we're back in the city in more familiar locales. The puppet show hasn't quite yet starter, but it seems like it'll be a very nice chapter.
..."

I am s glad I read your comment, J. just as was starting out. I am feeling frustrated too, but now that I know I am supposed to, it's ok.

Friends, I urge you to push on until you reach chapter six, and find yourself back in the familiar surroundings (if you'd read PSS) of New Crobuzon again.

It became a lot easier for me once I got past that point. :) CM really is too rambling and focused on diverse landscapes in the first 5 chapters, oi.

Traveller wrote: "After Iron Council we'll be taking a long rest from CM because I think we've exhausted his good stuff for now? People don't seem to like Kraken very much, so we can look at some other authors after IC, I should say. :)"

I did, long ago, volunteer to do King Rat, which I think is a fine book, unlike Kraken. The problem, partly, with Kraken is that it's not grounded in reality. The Bas Lag novels aren't grounded in our reality, but they remain internally consistent in theirs. Kraken pretends to be in London—but such a London as could never exist. Admittedly, King Rat does exactly the same, but it seems far less "weird".

I don't think Embassytown is "polarizing" so much as brain-pain difficult at times. Some people never want to work that hard at a novel, others need to be in the right mood. (but Embassytown is head and shoulders above Anathem, which isn't even Stephenson's best, and caused no brain-pain. :-) )

Right, I should start Iron Council…

Traveller wrote: "Friends, I urge you to push on until you reach chapter six, and find yourself back in the familiar surroundings (if you'd read PSS) of New Crobuzon again.

It became a lot easier for me once I got ..."

and yes

my plan to return IC a few days early and catch it again when it was reshelved,has backfired,as someone else snagged it for 3 weeks(-(

Hmm. Looks like we're stalled for a bit. No matter, hopefully it will give time for more people to join us.

Derek, I apologise that I missed the comment about King Rat that you are referring to. The thing is that we've read a LOT of Mièville in the last year or so, which is probably part of the reason why our discussions are running out of steam.

Personally I honestly feel like giving him a rest until at least December.
Would you like to lead a discussion for King Rat then?

I like to vary my authors, I don't know about you people, but I feel stifled reading so much of the same author so close together. I need variety in my reading, and I need to explore different authors.

December's fine.

I have read King Rat, not crazy about it but could read it again as a group thing to see if my opinion changes.

But...(should check other threads to be sure) didn't we already talk about Eco's F. Pendulum for late November? I just checked and I have it on the shelf and am interested as I haven't read it before, though I would have to start the first of December (NaNo comes first and I think I will need the whole month to win). Could King Rat come early in the new year?

Ah, okay, I forgot about NaNo wri mo.

Well, Foucault's Pendulum is only scheduled for the 23rd... I wonder if we should make that later then? Thanks for reminding me, Ruth.

Derek, isn't King Rat short stories? I confess I know little about it... How long do you judge we'd take to read it?

Btw, for those of you who hadn't noticed the Umberto Eco Foucault's Pendulum group yet, but would be interested in participating, it's here: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1...

No, King Rat is his first novel, I believe. Looking for Jake is short stories. I'm guessing that The Tain is, too, as the title story is no more than a novella, and is the last story in Looking for Jake.

December's a bad month for anybody to commit to anything, so next year is fine.

I really should check out NaNoWriMo. My writing is pretty much not happening, except in my head.

I just caught wind of the Foucault's Pendulum group in your feed Traveller. I mean to join. I read Pendulum right after The Name of the Rose, æons ago, but I can't remember it.

Okay, then maybe we should move Foucault's Pendulum up to December and King Rat to January?

I was hoping to pick up some buddy reads here in this group for my next fantasy reads, which will be Deathless by Catherynne M Valente, and maybe after that, Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman.

But for now, of course, it's Iron Council, so maybe the Valente for late November? ...and then Neverwhere for December (I always read more than one book at a time) and then King Rat for January?

wait wait....we are far from finished here.
I have just finished reading the entire thread with visuals and come here all hot to see the discussion has veered off to future reads

actually, I occassionally caught myself wandering during this book, and I even hated it for a day or so.
But I want to encourage everyone to keep at it,it does come together.

That said,maybe it's time to bring out a notion that occcurred to me to explain why I got so irritated and had such a hard time with the beginning of the book.Ach,I wish I had the book here to cite references, but there is a point when Cutter is attempting to pacify his little gang and get them to continue their search. For one, the dialogue is pretty lame,but the messianic parallels are all there:the search in the wilderness,the saviorlike quality of their elusive hero,the trials needed to be undergone,the faith and devotion of the disciples tested to the max before they reach the fabled goal.
But there was nothing especially edifying about it.In fact,I really wish I never met some of those monsters!

Cutter himself is a pretty lame hero,fired more by his occassionally requited love than any clear ideological position.In fact, I might contend that there are no real strong characters in IC and no one to bond with. Yet along the way, the council itself becomes endearing, and perhaps that was part of CM's purpose in this book,to do away with individual heroes, to give us a little hope in the power of the underdog.

I apologise for veering off-topic like that, I was going to say earlier that those planning issues should be discussed in the group's "calender" thread; very sorry about that, my bad.

Back to Iron Council: I've also been thinking about why we've been treating the first 5 chapters so perfunctorily, and I realized why this was so for me: in my case, it was because I had been told the story takes place back in New Crobuzon, and having quite loved PSS, I guess I was longing to get back onto its streets.

Not only does IC not start out in NC , but it starts in a rather strange, inaccessible way, talking about things the reader has no connection to. That could surely easily have been remedied--surely CM could have started us out in NC; he could have had our little party start there and move out into the wilderness; I think that would have drawn me into the narrative MUCH quicker.

It would have worked much better for me if he had given me something to ground myself in, and then moved out into the 'out there'.

In any case, I've come across this very interesting article about New Crobuzon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Crob....

It gives some nice background to our scenario. :)