Jane Austen discussion

Cue Wentworth (poor Anne!) and cue Louisa and Henrietta to rather enjoy Wentworth's company (to the chagrin of Charles Musgrove on Henrietta's side!)

I'm not at chapter 10 yet, but I want to share a thought with you. In chapter 6 Jane Austen says:

"The real circumstances of this pathetic piece of family history were, that the Musgroves had had the ill fortune of a very troublesome, hopless son; and the good fortune to lose him before he reached his twentieth year".

Well, don't you think this is quite cynical? I believe it is and maybe it's one of the most cynical remark in Jane Austen novels. I found other cynical passages in other novels, but they were always covered with a veil of ridicule, pity or disapproval.
This time it seems to me that Jane Austen treat her character with an unusual lack of sympathy and it seems out of place from someone who had at least one brother in the Navy.
Maybe her brother had to deal with someone troublesome like Dick Musgrove was and this is a sort of revenge.
Any thoughts on the matter?

Irene wrote: "I'm not at chapter 10 yet, but I want to share a thought with you. In chapter 6 Jane Austen says:

"The real circumstances of this pathetic piece of family history were, that the Musgroves had had ..."

an excellent remark indeed, Irene. It is quite rare for Austen to treat her characters with lack of sympathy; she always finds an excuse for them.
I believe Austen's reverence for the family is the reason she doesn't sympathize with those who disturb the quietude of family life. Dick Musgrove must have been a big source of problems for his parents.

I still need to reread those chapters :D

Probably you are righit Chahrazad, Richard Musgrove must have been so troublesome that he didn't even deserve defense. Lydia Bennet was quite a source of problems for her parents, but she was lead into it by her parents lack of guidance and Wickham good manners. So she wasn't so guilty.
I also think that at that time a difficult son was worse than a difficult daughter.

Very good question! That remark is directly insulting, not veiled by anything else.

It is funny given her connections to the Navy but I think your suggestion a good one - a sort of revenge I think would make sense.

I cannot think of another remark quite so cutting and without being softened by ridicule or humour.
This does sound like a bitter comment sprung from an experience in her life, this being her way of releasing her emotions about it.

At the end of chapter 10 I can say this novel should have been called "Persuasion and Misunderstanding", because Anne and Captain Wentworth misunderstand each other a lot.
Anne is obviously in a spot, because now she knows that she was wrong in breaking their engagement. She expected him to be angry but maybe she is surprised to see him also so indifferent.
Wentworth is contradictory. Jane Austen says about him:

"He had been most warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whome he thought her equal; but, except from some natural sensation of curiosity, he had no desire of meeting her again. Her power with him was gone for ever".

Of course he is trying to convince himself that her power has gone forever but a few lines after it's clear that is not the case:

"He had [...] a hearth, in short, for any pleasing young woman who came in his way, excepting Anne Elliot. This was his only secret exception."

Clearly he is not so unfeeling! He says he would marry any pleasing young woman, but he also says he never met someone who was Anne's equal. He profess himself indifferent but he cares for her and we can see it both when he helps her with her nephew and when he asks the Croft to take her on the curricle.

It's strange how two people, who knew each other so well in the past, can manage to constantly misunderstand each other. Wentworth believes she feels nothing for him, because she broke their engagement. Anne thinks that he is not in love with her anymore because he never wrote to her after 1806. And after eavesdroping the conversation with Louisa, Anne is persuaded that he despises her.

How tiring!

As well as Anne and Wentworth misunderstanding each other, Wentworth is definitely misunderstanding himself.
He clearly at this point in the book is conflicted - he is trying to persuade himself he doesn't care for Anne any more while at the same time his heart is going against what he is trying to think.

I agree with all the things both of you said, Irene and Soph. Anne and Wentworth are clearly still in love with each other but I believe Wentworth is the only one who struggles with his own feelings. It seems to me that Anne is conscious of loving a man who does not care of her anymore and even if she suffers, she quite accepts that. Instead Wentworth cannot face the truth and does anything to despise Anne without succeed.

Exactly Maria! that is why I said it is only Wentworth who is at that point still sorting his emotions out. Anne knows she still loves him - always has always will.

I love Anne for that! She is so strong and loyal to her emotions.

So do i! It is clear Wentworth is still in love with Anne, its just a shame he is in denial and still bitter towards her not to realise it/accept it earlier!

I think that a sentence that shows very well how Anne feels is this:

"He was done and was unanswered. It would have surprised Anne if Louisa could have readily answered such a speech - words of such interest, spoken with such serious warmth! - she could imagine what Louisa was feeling".

I can almost feel, while reading, Anne's desire of being in Louisa's place. She knows how Louisa was feeling because she had been the previous object of Wentworth attentions and now, that she has such a display in front of her, she can't do anything but regret her past decisions.

That is brilliant.

I pity Anne the most of all the heroines - knowing you have lost the man of your dreams and that it was your fault and that there is nothing you can now do about it. 8 years after the events she still feels strongly, or even more strongly now I believe, the pain of the loss!

I pity Anne too although she is my favourite among all the heroines. Because of her goodness, strength and her heart. She deserves to be loved and Wentworth is perfect for her.
That paragraph is heartbreaking Irene but it perfectly explains how sorry Anne is for her past choice.

They match so well. I read Captain Wentworth's Diary by Amanda Grange and I loved it because we got to see their courtship those 8 years earlier - it was so sweet and they really do suit each other!!

Irene wrote: "I'm not at chapter 10 yet, but I want to share a thought with you. In chapter 6 Jane Austen says:

"The real circumstances of this pathetic piece of family history were, that the Musgroves had had the ill fortune of a very troublesome, hop[e]less son; and the good fortune to lose him before he reached his twentieth year."

In The Annotated Persuasion, the editor notes that this passage has shocked many readers.

Its cynicism does reflect a tough-minded attitude found frequently in eighteenth-century literature , and in Jane Austen, though usually in more modulated form. This attitude included an at times brutal honesty about the unpleasant facts of existence . . . and a willingness to draw sharp mental distinctions between people, which included a willingness to draw sharp moral distinctions between people, which included identifying some people as completely bad and therefore better off gone.

He also notes that similar statements in other Austen books did not reach the "brutal frankness" of this one, and that had Austen had time to revise the novel she might have softened it.

Lady Wesley wrote: "Irene wrote: "I'm not at chapter 10 yet, but I want to share a thought with you. In chapter 6 Jane Austen says:

"The real circumstances of this pathetic piece of family history were, that the Musg..."

Thank you so much Lady Wesley for the information.

Thank you for this brilliant explanation!

Irene wrote: "Thank you for this brilliant explanation!"

I reckon we both owe Professor Shapard a thanks! I've learned so much from reading his annotated version of Persuasion.

The death of Dick Musgrove explains another thing: why there is such an age gap between Charles Musgrove and Henrietta and Louisa.

Also, by this time in Jane Austen's life she had more than one brother in the navy, and I'm sure they told her of seamen who fit Dick Musgrove's description.

Do you think Lady Russell's fears concerning Mrs.Clay were justified? And who do you think understood her father's character better; Anne or Elizabeth?

Interesting Lady Wesley!

I think Anne understood her father's character better. Elizabeth was also rather blind to his and her own carless behaviour (money wise).

I think her fears were justified yes. Mrs Clay's behaviour is all a bit mysterious and suspicious...

Chahrazad wrote: "Do you think Lady Russell's fears concerning Mrs.Clay were justified?

Although Lady Russell's fears are understandable, I rather doubt that they justified. Could Sir Walter ever bring himself to marry beneath himself? Could he ever find a woman with, gasp, freckles, attractive? And didn't she have children? I can't imagine Sir Walter being eager to become a step-papa and having noisy, dirty children around the house.

And Mrs. Clay didn't seem to have her eye on Sir Walter; she was in cahoots with William, the heir. He was younger, richer, and easier to inveigle.

And who do you think understood her father's character better; Anne or Elizabeth?"

I agree that Anne had a better understanding of her father's character. Anne was perceptive toward others, whereas Elizabeth was completely narcissistic. Austen speaks of "the prosperity and the nothingness" of Elizabeth's life, a condition that she seemed helpless to change by making herself more agreeable. I have no sympathy for Elizabeth.

But William doesn't appear to begin with? How was she to know that he was going to turn up? I agree that once he was the fears would be unjustifiable as she was all for William the heir, but before that?

Soph wrote: "But William doesn't appear to begin with? How was she to know that he was going to turn up? I agree that once he was the fears would be unjustifiable as she was all for William the heir, but before..."

Quite right, Soph. Somehow I had got it into my head that Mrs. Clay had encountered William earlier, in London.

No I don't believe she did ;)

This about Mrs. Clay is quite an interesting discussion. I believe that, at first, she seeks the acquaintance with the Elliots just to take advantage of it in some way or another. I don't think she started with the idea of hooking in Sir Walter.
She is a widow, quite a poor widow, and if it wasn't for Elizabeth she wouldn't have gone to Bath or anywere else.

I think Mrs. Clay was definitely after Sir Elliot! The most discerning all saw that.

Great insight here girls :)

Well, I think that Mrs.Clay just wanted to secure a place for herself in the society, by moving in upper circles of the social ladder; the way for her was to constantly flatter Sir Walter and his daughter. Ensnaring Sir Walter would be a completely other story. She had for sure heard him speak of other people's plainness and ugliness; do you think it was hard for her to imagine what he must have said about her behind her back? Mrs.Clay doesn't strike me as a stupid woman.

What do you think girls?

Mrs. Clay is clever enough to know what to do to secure herself a place in the Elliot's household. Maybe she didn't planned from the beginning to ensnare Sir Walter and she thought about it later.

Perhaps Mrs. Clay saw marriage with Sir Elliot as a long shot but nevertheless as an opportunity worth pursuing. She might have even had some hints from her father on the best way to flatter and to manage him. And in the meantime she wasn't paying for her board and keep.

And perhaps her father, Mr. Shepherd, was using her to keep Sir Elliot from spending too much! I know that's a little silly, but it would have been in her father's and so also in Mrs. Clay's interest.

I reckon she wanted something from the Elliot's, at the beginning she was unsure quite what but then the idea of Sir Walter entered her head, but then William Elliot came on the scene. She is a little scheming miss whatever her true reasons!

Victoria_Grossack wrote: "I think Mrs. Clay was definitely after Sir Elliot! The most discerning all saw that."

I very much agree with you. He was her target, the one who suspected was Lady Russel.

Irene wrote: "I'm not at chapter 10 yet, but I want to share a thought with you. In chapter 6 Jane Austen says:

"The real circumstances of this pathetic piece of family history were, that the Musgroves had had ..."

I did not find her description of Sick cynical. It is what it is, I am glad she did not cover this remark in satire. It clearly shows how death makes a family speak of the kindness of an individual which never existed.

Irene wrote: "At the end of chapter 10 I can say this novel should have been called "Persuasion and Misunderstanding", because Anne and Captain Wentworth misunderstand each other a lot.
Anne is obviously in a sp..."

I had the same reaction of misunderstanding but I felt it more on Anne side but these chapters focused more her turmoil. Anne assumes so much about Captain W's words and movements. She assumes that he talking to Walter after he (Captain W) removes him from her neck that it was a move so he would not speak with her because he does not like her. Ohhhhh Anne stop assuming!

From these chapters:

I realized that Anne is a mediator at the Musgroves. Everyone comes to her about the way the children,adults etc should behave. She does her task effortlessly and she does not put any friction between the parties by her comments. I admire that quality in her. It also shows a contrast when she is in the Elliots company. No one in this family cares about her opinions and judgement.

In addition, I realize that Anne is very observant to words, facial and body movements. At first I felt that it was connected only to Captain W because she read his brief facial expressions so well. However, I realized her art discern Mrs.Croft and Captain B as well (forgive me I read chapter 11 in this section by mistake).

Questions:
1.Should Captain W have a scolding for engaging so eagerly two sisters to the extend everyone is wondering which one he marries? Or his he innocent in the matter; just a pleasant fellow?

2. "Anne hoped she had outlived the age of blushing;but the age of emotion she had not."
Whatever does the second part of the quote means?

I don't think it was right of Captain Wentworth to lead everyone to wonder which Miss Musgrove he would marry. In those days it was very important not to show too much affection unless you really wanted to be seriously attached. That wasn't the case for Captain W. He didn't love either of the Miss Musgroves, and I think he went just a little bit too far. A lady's reputation was so easily ruined back then that I think he could have been more careful!

"Anne hope she had outlived that age of blushing; but the age of emotion she had not."
I think that the second part of the quote means that, although she may be more able to control her countenance, and not show physically that she blushes, she still feels it. She stills feels all those emotions that she felt before, only she doesn't necessarily show them.

Those were very good questions by the way :)

Anne wrote: "I don't think it was right of Captain Wentworth to lead everyone to wonder which Miss Musgrove he would marry."

Wentworth probably did overstep a bit with the Musgrove girls, but the poor man was targeted almost from the minute he arrived. In Pride & Prejudice Austen wrote, “A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony in a moment.” Of course, after Louisa is injured, he realizes his mistake and resorts to the time-honored male strategy for conflict-avoidance -- he flees Lyme Regis!

"I think that the second part of the quote means that . . . " Excellent answer. I agree.

Lady Wesley wrote: "Of course, after Louisa is injured, he realizes his mistake and resorts to the time-honored male strategy for conflict-avoidance -- he flees Lyme Regis!"

Hahahaha that is so true!

It is interesting that Wentworth flees - but what was he doing dallying so long in the first place? After all he was supposed to be visiting his brother. I think it was because he was still in love with Anne. He may have not even quite admitted it to himself, but he was.

Note that he only leaves the area after Anne has departed for Bath.

Victoria_Grossack wrote: "It is interesting that Wentworth flees - but what was he doing dallying so long in the first place? After all he was supposed to be visiting his brother. I think it was because he was still in lo..."

That is very true. I have never fully thought about it that way. He did hang around a long time, until Anne left.

Maria wrote: "Lady Wesley wrote: "Of course, after Louisa is injured, he realizes his mistake and resorts to the time-honored male strategy for conflict-avoidance -- he flees Lyme Regis!"

Hahahaha that is so true!"

That is great Lady Wesley!

Thanks for the responses ladies.

I do agree Captain W fled the scene quickly when he knew all was well with Louisa. He surely had Anne on his mind.

He always has had Anne on his mind but he just wouldn't acknowledge it at times! ('For you alone I think and plan')

Oh I sure liked when he said that "For you alone, I think and plan." Grin worthy :D.

That whole letter is swoon worthy!

It most definitely is.

I especially love when he writes "dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you."

Oh yes, it's surely swoon-worthy!

Brilliant...

Very beautiful, Anne :)