Jane Austen discussion

In Bath Mr Elliot is formally introduced, Mrs Clay is causing a few difficulties, meet the Dalrymples and Mrs Smith, Lady Russell is once again being 'persuasive', Louisa becomes engaged and Wentworth appears on the scene in Bath

What do we make of the Dalrymples? She is a bit of lady isn't she! She reminds of me Lady Catherine a little.

I'm not happy to have Mr Elliot back on the scene ...

OT, but I see that there is a new TV production of P.D. James' Death Comes to Pemberley. Although I didn't think that the book was great, I would love to see it just for the great Penelope Keith playing Lady Catherine! P.K. can deliver a set-down, for sure.

Soph wrote: "I'm not happy to have Mr Elliot back on the scene ..."

Me neither Soph...

Maria wrote: "Soph wrote: "I'm not happy to have Mr Elliot back on the scene ..."

Me neither Soph..."

Ah, but Mr. Elliot serves a purpose, doesn't he? Wentworth's jealousy brings home to him his love for Anne.

True Lady Wesley! He does serve a purpose!

I look forward to seeing Death comes to Pemberley as well mainly for the cast :)

Lady Wesley wrote: "Maria wrote: "Soph wrote: "I'm not happy to have Mr Elliot back on the scene ..."

Me neither Soph..."

Ah, but Mr. Elliot serves a purpose, doesn't he? Wentworth's jealousy brings home to him his ..."

That is right, Lady Wesley. As much as I cannot stand him, the story needs him :)

I think one of the most interesting thing about these chapters is the picture Jane Austen gives us of Bath. It seems a place full of silly people whose only purpose is to show off and, since Bath is smaller than London, it's easier to be "someone".
We know the Elliots had to move from their estate to Bath because of their financial problems and that they decided for Bath because the can keep their status with less expenses. Then, what about their noble cousins? Are they there just to take the waters or maybe they have similar reasons?
I think that even if Lady Darlymple is quite a personality in Bath, in London she would have been relegated to a corner. I can't believe that London society would have valued her, insipid and dull as she is.

You are very right. She does not paint a pretty picture of bath as she did not like bath at all herself. I think you are right about Lady Dalrymple. She would be relegated to a corner. The different between London society and bath society...

I agree, Soph. I think Jane Austen is speaking a little to her own associations with Bath through Anne. Anne associated it with the death of her mother, Jane's own father passed away when they were living in Bath, so I think we are definitely getting a bit of her own take on Bath society.

She really did not have a high opinion of bath, but as you say, it is understandable. Well, live in Bath or her lovely cottage in Chawton? Cottage for me!

Snap!

I think the Darlymples came around to make Sir Walter look more shallow and vain. I found the scene where Sir Walter writes his long letter of apology to Lady D and her response of three sentences, so comical. Sir Walter used Lady D to better his status in Bath. Jane Austen is poking here (haha). Lady D was not the person everyone would gravitate around in a ball or party because was just passive, unlike someone like Mr and Mrs Jennings (S&S). Her daughter suffered the worst judgement, describe as dull. They were important because of their status. It says plenty about the people who latched to them to rub only for their social rank.

Mr. Elliot: Is he a product of genteel society? Should his behaviour be excused because of the way he was raised? (Think of this only for this section of the book)

Notice his conversation with Anne about what is good company. Anne says good company compromises great conversation with clever people but Mr. Elliot says no, it is great company. "Good company requires birth, education, and manners, and with regard to education is not very nice....." Chapter 16 It seem that Mr. Elliot is pumped up with so high standards are so attached to rank. Notice what passes as good company for him and he reserves Anne's definition for best company. Immediately he follows this by showing how important it is to use their connections with Lady D, just for rank. He is just so consumed with status, that he allows it to begrudge him of saying hi."Well, it would serve to cure him of an absurd practice of never asking a question at an inn, which he had adopted, when quite a young man, on the principal of its being very ungenteel to be curious." Chapter 15. Oh come on Mr. Elliot!


It is just so sad how Anne is "...anticipating an imprisonment of many months..." (Chapter 15) with her own family. It is the worst feeling like you do not belong to your father and sister. It pisses me off how they treat her and yet she strives to be so obedient to them. "... and Anne could have said much, and did long to say a little in defense of her friend's ...but her sense of personal respect to her father prevented her." Chapter 17
Ohhhhh Anne.


Did anyone laugh out loud when Admiral Croft said "...but James Benwick is rather too piano for me." Chapter 18 . I wonder what on earth he meant by them but I am wondering whether if he thinks James is soft, temperate....


The best thing I have heard Mary said "What an immense time Mrs. Clay has been staying with Elizabeth! Does she never mean to go away?" Chapter 18 hehe.

Marren wrote: "Did anyone laugh out loud when Admiral Croft said "...but James Benwick is rather too piano for me." Chapter 18 .."

Like you, I assume the Admiral is using 'piano' in the musical sense, a passage marked to be performed softly. Thus, Benwick is rather too sensitive and dreamy for the Admiral's taste.

Remember that back then the instrument was called "pianoforte" - soft-loud - so everyone knew that meaning of piano.

Ok

You make some great points Marren.

Is he a product of society? Well maybe. Many men had mistresses during those times. It was common, as was a lot of the other behaviour exhibited by Elliot. I don't think it is excusable but it makes it less shocking I think.

I absolutely love the conversation about good company. I am with Anne, but this is clearly Jane Austen speaking here. Mr Elliot's best company would be Jane's good company.

I would hate to feel so unloved and unconnected with my own family. I am not surprised Anne felt the way she did - I would if they were my family, but it doesn't make it any less horrible.

Yes I agree about the piano comment. I love that they called it the pianoforte - they were so excited to move away from the boring harpsichord to this new piano which could do dynamics they had to called it "soft loud" in the excitement that they could now play loud and soft!!! Ahaha!!

Some nice observations there.

I love all the comments on the differing views of society, there were some beautifully crafted words in this section of the novel.

I’m not sure Mr Elliot is more a product of society than anyone else, and he is not entirely sincere in any case, Anne has already observed that his manners are pleasing to everyone and she distrusts him for it.

Pleasing to everyone and the experienced Anne distrusts him.
Similar to Wickham - he is pleasing to everyone but unfortunately Lizzy doesn't distrust him...

Not at first, but Lizzy has the sense to recognise the truth of Darcy's words and be put on her guard. Anne is older and can see it for herself.

Yes, Anne is more experienced than Lizzy, but as you say, Lizzy is not so stubborn as to accept the truth of the fact that she was wrong. :)