Orthodoxy discussion

Intro to Beginning to Pray

OK, I will start with a quote from Intro Page 12 which hits me every time I read this book... perhaps because there is something tied up in this thinking which I personally have only met in Orthodoxy and not anywhere else. Fr. Anthony Bloom says:"You really learn to value things, to look at people and see the radiant beauty they possess---without the desire to possess them."

He goes on to talk about learning what it means for someone or something (a flower) to exist without me (as a person) needing to possess them... what it means to let something or someone exist in their own right ... what it means to love something without me having to benefit from the existence of the beloved... to let others be truly free. That acceptance of others reminds me of Christ telling us that the greatest commandment is to love God, and the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves... which exactly means that we allow that neighbor to be free, while we care for him and his lot and will him all possible good... without having to possess him or in some way change him or have some claim on him in return for our love.

To me, somewhere in that kind of thinking is the heart of not only True Orthodoxy, but the key to Christ's love for us.


Nuff said, but I think that has always been one of my favorite passages in thiiis book.

I loved that passage in the intro as well. That passage freaked my husband out though. The fact that loving people, accepting people completely is dangerous, even to the point of accepting they may kill you. I understood that passage as our need for complete immersion in Christ's love. He took it to mean something else. I had to laugh and say that he might not be ready for that passage. Poor thing conceded.
But enough about my otherwise quite sweet and usually wise husband.
There was so much to soak in that I will have to write again when I can see my markings. I had a number in the book, reminding me of the last time I read it. However, it's still a fresh read.

I really enjoyed the interview with him as the introduction, as it gives us a picture of his life, his humility, and his journey.
One thing I was struck with was his journey to Christ - picking the shortest Gospel :)
His wisdom and heart come through in his answers.

I have a question. On page 17, still in the intro, Fr. Bloom says that when God is absent and silent-- that is the beginning of prayer. .. when we say to God I can't live without you, why are you so cruel, so silent.

I get the gist, maybe, but could someone else bring this one home to me. I am still missing something.

Zaina,

Your husband's point seems important to me, as well as your point that we need to be totally immersed in Christ. I think there is great risk in trusting Christ. Kierkegaard speaks of the leap of faith Abraham too. He went up on the mountain with Isaac, without understanding, without knowing what would happen next, and God provided. --- The kind of trust that could result in other people doing us ill is part of Christian love and trust, I think. F. ex. in Les Miserable, the bishop takes in Jean Val Jean when nobody else would. Jean steals his silver and takes off, but is brought back to the bishop by the authorities. The bishop, instead of indicting Jean, says to the authorities that he gave Jean those items of silver. Again... risk. There is no telling whether Jean will repent and start a new life. But I don't think the bishop's economy operates in a universe where he would only give when he knows for certain that the person will turn out well. I think he gives because Christ gives . And if it is not received, he would still give because God calls him to give...

... a long rambling to say that trusting God involves risk,damage, ill will, persecution, etc... all of the above, for the sake of being of one mind with Christ. (not that I am particularly good at it.)

Regarding the question regarding page 17, I believe he goes on to explain it in the following chapter. The absence of God is not His absence but ours. That it is a relationship and like any other relationship, it must be nurtured. It is up to us to nurture our side of that relationship and when we expect God to show up on our terms, or when we are available, this is when we suffer. For He knocks at our heart's door often and we do not respond. But this is a discussion for chapter 2!
Specific to that passage, I believe Bloom is saying that we must trust in God, even in our worst moments, and we will pass through all the more close to God. But I may be projecting here. In the following paragraph, Bloom points out that many of us want the gifts but fail to want God Himself. Perhaps He withholds Himself until we are in the right frame of mind, hence the apparent cruelty?
I'm honestly not sure.
As for my husband's point, it is terrifying to trust. I realize that. I'm not very good at it either, still trying to rely on myself in most situations, forgetting I and my situation are in God's hands. That He knows what is best. To trust unto death is a whole other level. My husband's sense of survival is very strong. In matters of life and death, it is do unto others before they do unto you. Of course, he is fiercely protective of us, his family, as well and that may be where it comes from. We are opposite in so many ways... but we are each struggling in our own way as well as together. Marriage is, after all, the machine that smooths the rough stones into smooth ones - I just don't know that machine's name :)
I have rambled and perhaps said too much. Hope it's of some use.

Another thought came into my head. A great example is what is going on in Syria - many Christian villages are being overrun by Islamic militants who give people 3 choices: die, convert or pay a "tax" which recurs and eventually cannot be afforded. Many choose to die with in God. Some take the 4th option when possible, which is to flee.
Not trying to get into politics, just an example of those willing to trust unto death.

That relationship aspect, wanting God rather than wanting the things God can give us, is, I think, not so difficult to articulate, but considerably more difficult to live sincerely.

Even in human relationships, I have 3 kids in college, and while I do believe they would still inquire, stop in, care for their parents, even if we were stuck in rocking chairs at a nursing home with nothing to give them... I still think that humanly speaking, we make connections professionally, in business, and personally, to some degree with self interest in mind, and that includes a closer tie to a parent who is paying for college (and also in my case also helping with homework in science and math... which increases the frequencies of phone calls) compared to the ties we have to persons whom we may care for, but who so easily slip through the cracks when life gets busy and we have no direct need to regularly maintain the line of communication.

We approach God because we are needy creatures, impoverished morally, spiritually, physically, and like children that is how we first come, and some times (and I count myself in this group) that is as far as we can see and go. That additional deeper and more meaningful relationship, that I want to talk to God because I have a deep abiding relationship with him the way I do with my best friend Tracy... that idea that I want to be in his presence and sense his nearness, is somewhat elusive when you consider that God is not as evidently physically present as my next-door neighbor Dave whom we hardly know at all because he just moved in. Still, I know more about Dave than I know about God. For example, I know when Dave is there and when he is not. I can see him. He speaks audibly, he 'fills' space, and while I have never shaken his hand, I know if I did so, there would be a human hand there, strong, warm, something I could feel. I know how to be a pleasant neighbor, I hope. I also think I know what to say that would be horribly offensive (not just to Dave, but to anybody). In other words, Dave is predictably human and while we may never become his best friends, we know the rules of engagement, roughly, and we can create further closeness or more distance in that relationship based on some basic premises that we understand fairly well.

The spiritual exercise of prayer is not so easily understood. Not the rules of engagement, nor the means by which the relationship is furthered or lessened. Bloom talks about a degree of freedom, that God is not drummed up by incantations, nor can we force Him to be present merely for our needs or sakes, and I totally agree. What I don't comprehend is the details of how to move in relationship to 'the divine' to foster that closeness, or to do my part to bring it about. --- Don't get me wrong, I do very much stand in awe of divine services at church and find them the most marvelous services in the world.... thank God for them, or I don't think I would ever sense His presence.

Lene wrote: "OK, I will start with a quote from Intro Page 12 which hits me every time I read this book... perhaps because there is something tied up in this thinking which I personally have only met in Orthodo..."

Lene wrote: "OK, I will start with a quote from Intro Page 12 which hits me every time I read this book... perhaps because there is something tied up in this thinking which I personally have only met in Orthodo..."

I'm not reading, just following (I think I must have loaned out my copy), but I love that you posted this Lene. This is the very thing that struck me so deeply about Orthodoxy. There is an understanding that we are striving to love as God loves, with a love perfectly free of selfish desire, that isn't insecure or grasping. I'm using that very idea in my second novel about a man who is deeply in love with his wife--who is deeply in love with God.