Classics and the Western Canon discussion

This short section is one of my favorite parts of the book. If you fell asleep during the war, you shall wake up here, and vice versa.

Reading note: The following three paragraphs appear at the end of Book 5 in some editions and the beginning of book 6 in others. They form an important transition. I think the second paragraph below is shocking and the third paragraph is beautiful.

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In 1808 the Emperor Alexander went to Erfurt for a fresh interview with the Emperor Napoleon, and in the upper circles of Petersburg there was much talk of the grandeur of this important meeting.

In 1809 the intimacy between "the world's two arbiters," as Napoleon and Alexander were called, was such that when Napoleon declared war on Austria a Russian corps crossed the frontier to co-operate with our old enemy Bonaparte against our old ally the Emperor of Austria, and in court circles the possibility of marriage between Napoleon and one of Alexander's sisters was spoken of. But besides considerations of foreign policy, the attention of Russian society was at that time keenly directed on the internal changes that were being undertaken in all the departments of government.

Life meanwhile--real life, with its essential interests of health and sickness, toil and rest, and its intellectual interests in thought, science, poetry, music, love, friendship, hatred, and passions- went on as usual, independently of and apart from political friendship or enmity with Napoleon Bonaparte and from all the schemes of reconstruction.
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Erfurt: http://fuerstenkongress.erfurt.de/htm...

Laurele wrote: "This short section is one of my favorite parts of the book. If you fell asleep during the war, you shall wake up here, and vice versa.

Reading note: The following three paragraphs appear at the en..."

Tolstoy can certainly pack a lot into a few paragraphs when he wants to. Other times he will spend thousands of words to describe some minor thing in detail, in order to lead some character to a moment of truth at the end.

As to book six, have we seen this image of Natasha, Andrei, and Pierre at the the ball? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

Somehow I imagined Andrei to look more English.

Thanks for that image, Theresa. It is a bit different than mine from the book and the movies I have seen. Fun to see!

Here is an image of Natasha and Prince Andrei at the ball in the movie War and Peace, 1967 (Mosfilm), directed by Sergei Bondarchuk, with Liudmila Savelieva as Natasha and Viacheslav Tikhonov as Prince Andrei.

http://www.utoronto.ca/tolstoy/tolsto...

Here are a number of illustrations for W&P. Since there may be a spoiler among these (I haven't gone through them all), I'll do this: (view spoiler)[ http://www.utoronto.ca/tolstoy/tolsto... (hide spoiler)]

Lily wrote: "Thanks for that image, Theresa. It is a bit different than mine from the book and the movies I have seen. Fun to see!

Here is an image of Natasha and Prince Andrei at the ball in the movie War a..."


I'd love to see that movie. Sometimes I have a hard time visualizing things despite Tolstoy's detailed descriptions. I have an especially hard time visualizing some of the battlefields, this may be the result of my military vocabulary being weak. I've taken to looking up more military terminology but it breaks the flow of the narrative to do so.

Sergei Fedorovich Bondarchuk was a Soviet film director, screenwriter. His interpretation of War and Peace is perfect. As inspiring as the book but through cinematography.

Leopard wrote: "Sergei Fedorovich Bondarchuk was a Soviet film director, screenwriter. His interpretation of War and Peace is perfect. As inspiring as the book but through cinematography."

Well, I'll go to excellent, even superb, but I think there are valid interpretations in at least parts besides those of Bondarchuk, so I can't quite go with you to "perfect." For example, the opening soirée is magnificent; the book suggests to some of us, especially given the short notice, a slightly more intimate, albeit elegant, affair.

But this movie adaption is equally as worth seeing as the book is worth reading.

"In the spring of 1809 he went to visit the Ryazan estates which had been inherited by his son, whose guardian he was."

TOLSTOY, LEO (2011-03-20). Delphi Complete Works of Leo Tolstoy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 26983-26984). Delphi Classics.

Anybody understand what this is about in Russian inheritance? Via his mother? Allocation frequently made at birth? Other? Also, where it is relative to Bald Hill?

"Prince Andrew had spent two years continuously in the country.

"All the plans Pierre had attempted on his estates — and constantly changing from one thing to another had never accomplished — were carried out by Prince Andrew without display and without perceptible difficulty.

"He had in the highest degree a practical tenacity which Pierre lacked, and without fuss or strain on his part this set things going.

"On one of his estates the three hundred serfs were liberated and became free agricultural laborers — this being one of the first examples of the kind in Russia.
On other estates the serfs’ compulsory labor was commuted for a quitrent. A trained midwife was engaged for Bogucharovo at his expense, and a priest was paid to teach reading and writing to the children of the peasants and household serfs."

Ibid. (Kindle Locations 26965-26974).

This section, along with his attention to his son during this period of his life, are a good deal of what made Prince Andrew seem an attractive character to me.

Lily wrote: ""Prince Andrew had spent two years continuously in the country.

"All the plans Pierre had attempted on his estates — and constantly changing from one thing to another had never accomplished — wer..."

This seems to me to exemplify the difference -- or a major difference -- between Prince Andrew and Pierre. Pierre does a lot of thinking, a lot of changing his mind from this to that, a lot of intentions, whereas Andrew is a doer. Whether in the war or on his estate, he's one of those people who just go about getting things done.

There is a sadness about the early chapters of this section. The Oak tree, which for me would have represented strength, eternality, constancy, for Andrew denied the spring, the sun, the happiness. Then seeing Natasha while he was already depressed about his business compared his life against her "bright and happy life." I imagine him feeling old and tired, someone who, to the young and cheerful, simply doesn't exist. There is a sadness about this section which touches me.

Patrice wrote: "...Do you think this could be a bit of a dialogue between idealism and empiricism? ..."

I guess, if anything so abstract, I read it more as a critique of idealism rather than a dialogue (a la Settembrini and Naphta in Magic Mountain). But, mostly for me it was just another of Tolstoy's close observations of humans and the myriad ways they are -- and how those ways often fit into "character".

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: ""Prince Andrew had spent two years continuously in the country.

"All the plans Pierre had attempted on his estates — and constantly changing from one thing to another had never accom..."

Boy do I agree with this. Sorry to add nothing more than a "me too" post. However, I am struck by how much more I admire Andrei on this reading. (Although I must confess that I am also falling behind.)

Zeke wrote: "...However, I am struck by how much more I admire Andrei on this reading...."

I find Andrei to be such a mixed individual -- his treatment of Lise versus his love of his son, his hero worship of Napoleon versus his bravery in fighting the French, his respect for his father versus his acquiescence in virtually abandoning his young betrothed for a year, .... The romantic in me wants him to be Prince Charming. Tolstoy doesn't quite give us that character.

Patrice wrote: "I think he has some of his father's cruelty in him...."

But it doesn't seem to me that Tolstoy suggests "in" in the sense we would today speak of genetically inherited -- more that Andrei has adopted some of his father's habits at the same time as he has rejected others. Tolstoy's ability to create those mixtures as he spins his characters is part of my awe of him as a writer.

I find myself wondering about the mother in this family. We get few traces of who she might have been; even how long she might have lived. Who is older, Marya or Andrei? If the mother died in child birth, how has that impacted relationships and who brought up the children? (As I recall, Tolstoy lost his mother when he was very young.)

On this reading, I found myself asking a question that never occurred to me on the first one: Is there a sexual relationship between Prince Nikolay and Mlle Bourienne? It seems to me that there is a sentence here and there that suggests such a possibility. I don't know enough about the structure and ambiance of wealthy Russian homes of the period to go any further as to the probability. It certainly doesn't surprise me that Tolstoy would not treat any such possibility openly, given the time and period in which he wrote.

Prince Nikolay's treatment of Lise is a fascinating one -- and the skill with which Tolstoy has recorded those encounters. On the one hand, Prince N. calls marriage "bad business" with his son, but on the other he really doesn't object to bringing the doctor to oversee her childbirth. Even during the outburst with Marya's hair and clothes, he is deferential to his daughter-in-law. Despite some formal politeness, no wonder Lise was afraid of him. But I am not sure that she needed to be, if there had been a skillful, strong older woman in the mix in that household. One just occasionally had a sense of a pussycat underneath that impossible demeanor -- that a mask of cruelty and impatience was used to protect vulnerability. Which, of course, often is largely so self defeating.

I don't think Prince Andrew was at all cruel to his deceased wife.

He was not angry at her but at society with its scheming and lies that ensured they would end up together. He is angry at himself for allowing himself to get roped into marriage, and not realising that marriage would hinder his personal life.

He never ever connected with his wife. He didn't not the construct of marriage because it offered him nothing. He wanted wonderful conversation, but instead had a frivolous companion. Remember his wife was considered the most fascination woman in Petersburg, he thought he had married a woman of substance. I suspect he lacked the keenness to see that she wasn't going to be a suitable companion, instead he was stunned by bosoms and beauty and allowed to belief she was indeed fascinating. Once the honeymoon was over he realised he had been duped, and he regretted it.

We see how this influences so much of the rest of his life. He does not have any tolerance for political schemings (remember Tushin being setup as a scapegoat).

I think when she died he felt the guilt of having not treated her properly, rather than feeling guilty for being cruel, he was guilty of being a bit depressed and not loving her as a man should love a woman, he was guilt of being selfish.

I love this chapter about Prince Andrew, it really takes us through a roller coaster of his emotions.

He was bitter while married.
He had a sense of fulfillment in the army, and he was full of ideas and fantasies, and he was slowing working his way up.
He became despondent after his wife died, the army annoyed him, he annoyed himself with thoughts about how he treated her etc.
He became idealistic in his treatment of the estates.
He became a bit inspired and renewed his interested in the army matters. (Again, idealistic)
He became somewhat bitter and despondent again after he realised it was pointless.
He fell in love, which made him throw off his other persuits and realise how fruitless they would be.
Now he is travelling around Europe away from his betrothed and not bringing himself to marry her (despite his father finally telling him to).

Did I get that all in the right order?

What I love, is that this is so flawed, yet so much more realistic then a typical hollywood leading man. As a reader we know that Prince Andrew is the sensible character in the book, the one you would most want to marry, the one you would entrust your finances with, yet he is so flawed, so normal.

Cass wrote: "...I think when she died he felt the guilt of having not treated her properly, rather than feeling guilty for being cruel, he was guilty of being a bit depressed and not loving her as a man should love a woman, he was guilty of being selfish. ..."

Well, Cass, we seem to have different concepts of "cruel." Selfishness and "not loving her as a man should love a woman" could certainly qualify as "cruelty" in my conception of the term.

Although "bosom" was a big part of Helene's attraction, the extent to which such was one of Lise's major sources of charm seems less clear. It is not obvious that Andrei wanted wonderful conversation with a wife, but, at the same time, his apparently rather brilliant society match does come across as somewhat frivolous. It is interesting to me that I don't recall that we are given clues as to the dowry she brought to the match -- or many details on how the marriage was arranged. We do get a glimpse that Andrei can be a bit jealous of the attention she is able to attract. I see little clues that Lise had a charm and a humanity under those pretty clothes, but no education and not the practical household management skills Tolstoy has tended to extoll in his heroines like Kitty in Anna Karenina and even to a certain extent in Princess Marya (overseeing the care of her nephew). Lise, too, seems to have been without a mother at this point in her young life.

I like your "back stories," Patrice. Each has a real plausibility, given what Tolstoy does give us.

Tolstoy does make it pretty clear the Prince truly loved Marya (in his own way) and, as much as he knew she deserved a chance to be a wife and mother, he did not want to let her go.

(I like Cass's msg 19, too. Just saw it now. One can sometimes miss a post due to timing et al.)

Thx, Patrice. Intertextuality again. And humanity.

Even the old Prince raised his eyebrows when his son asked that the child not be raised in accordance with its mother's wishes should he, Andre be killed in action.


I think that both the young Prince Andrew as well as the young Pierre are both rather unfair to their wives and don't seem to have the emotional maturity to be good husbands.

Theresa wrote: "I think that both the young Prince Andrew as well as the young Pierre are both rather unfair to their wives and don't seem to have the emotional maturity to be good husbands...."

Both wives are also young, without educations, without mothers, and from very social strata of society.

Patrice wrote: "[re Andrew's treatment of Lise] Either way, used and then discarded her. Cruel. "

I didn't see it that way. I think he really felt that leaving her at Bald Hills was the safest place for her while he was off at war. If you read their arrival at Bald Hills (Part 1, Chapter 23) she seemed to me pleased to be there. And men going off to war can't really be considered as discarding their wives, can they?

Theresa wrote: "
I think that both the young Prince Andrew as well as the young Pierre are both rather unfair to their wives and don't seem to have the emotional maturity to be good husbands. "

Are you judging them by modern standards of how a husband should treat his wife, or by the standards of early 19th century Russia, which may be a very different thing.

Everyman wrote:
Are you judging them by modern standards of how a husband should treat his wife, or by the standards of early 19th century Russia, which may be a very different thing.

Mostly by 21st century standards, but also by comparison to how the characters mature toward the end of the book (which I ought not get into until we get there).

By Biblical standards, maybe? Whether Jewish or Christian, those certainly predate 19th century Russia.

Lily wrote: "By Biblical standards, maybe? Whether Jewish or Christian, those certainly predate 19th century Russia."

Interesting point. Slightly relevant to which, I have been reading a biography of Tolstoy in parallel with W&P, and at the time he write W&P (between ages 35 and 41), he had not yet developed the strong Christian belief which was so evident in his later writing. Also, he wrote, perhaps half-jokingly, to a friend "I'm very glad you love my wife. Although I love her less than my novel, still, you know, she is my wife." So whether, or how much, he was affected by Biblical directives is perhaps not obvious.

Patrice wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Patrice wrote: "[re Andrew's treatment of Lise] Either way, used and then discarded her. Cruel. "

I didn't see it that way. I think he really felt that leaving her at Bald Hills..."

I agree with you, Patrice. From the very beginning of the book we are shown that Andre was bored with his wife and wished he had not married her. Going to war was an escape for him, not a necessity.

Patrice wrote: "I think I know what Cass is referring to when it comes to Lise. Although I don't think she was well endowed (she WAS the Little Princess after all) I did get the feeling that Andre regretted succu..."

Yes... I was not actually referring to her bosoms, more to the notion of a young man being swept away by the charms of a woman. The use of the word bosoms was a hint at the way Pierre came to love Helene, a woman using her charms to ensare a man.

Lise was the sister-in-law of Anatole (before or after I wonder), Prince Andrew was a rich man. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that she used every tool that she had in order to snare him... but that is conjecture.

Patrice wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Theresa wrote: "
I think that both the young Prince Andrew as well as the young Pierre are both rather unfair to their wives and don't seem to have the emotional maturity to be goo..."

I think even Prince Andrew himself shows that it wasn't the cultural norm. In the first book as he talks to Pierre he is upset that marriage has shackled him. I read that he felt obliged to be with his wife, when he would much rather be alone and left to his own devices.

Surely he was despising the obligation to enter into a close relationship with a woman.

I just recalled how awkward Prince Andrew was around women, he expect them to be like Marya, and didn't know how to respond when they acted like fools. (this is what I noticed in the first book).

Cass wrote: "Lise was the sister-in-law of Anatole (before or after I wonder), Prince Andrew was a rich man. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that she used every tool that she had in order to snare him... ..."

Oh, surely sweet, innocent little Lise wouldn't try to snare a man.

@Patrice. I think you are being swept along by society charms. Lise was a flirt and a good one. She watched closely the hostess at the first soirée and mimicked her.

She knew and understood the role that women in that set played and she was prepared to play it.

I took everymans comment to be tongue in cheek!

The guy was one of the most eligible bachelors in russia... You can be sure he was the subject of much political scheming.

For all her fear of him, even her father-in-law seemed to respect and be somewhat charmed by Lise, though he resisted in his own stern way. I got a sense that besides her beauty and charm, Lise may have brought a decent dowry to the marriage. But not certain I can support that impression, beyond her being a part of upper society in Petersburg.

But Lise as sister-in-law to Anatole? I don't understand or recall?

His brother, Prince Ippolit, did flirt with her, and Prince Andrei eventually admitted his jealousy.

Patrice wrote: "I think he has some of his father's cruelty in him. Certainly towards Lise. The difference, I think, is that he's searching. He questions and goes through changes, while his father thinks he has all the answers..."

Patrice -- Prince Nikolay strikes me more as the type of man who may well know he doesn't have all the answers, but he is not about to admit such publicly -- or possibly even to himself at times. And, even if he does recognize his lack of knowing, he might well believe there are "answers" -- including for situations where they don't exist.

Oops. She wasn't related to Anatole. Not sure where I got that idea either.

Hi all, I'm working hard to catch up with everyone, but figured this post wasn't so old I couldn't comment on :-)

Patrice wrote: "This comment has stayed with me. I've been puzzled by the tendency of these intellectual and mature men to marry teen-agers. "

Yeah! You would think these men would consider it a little risky to marry someone so young. How can they come to really know the girls before they marry so they don't feel "tricked" later on, when these girls are so young they barely know themselves?! Perhaps Andrew is catching on to this and it's part of his reluctance to come home?

Or perhaps by marrying a young lady they feel they will be better able to control her.

Perhaps they want a devoted mentee rather than an equal.

Jeremy wrote: "...these girls are so young they barely know themselves?!..."

So true! However, it is not clear to me that women were expected to know themselves. Countess Rostov remains child-like, at least in my perception, except perhaps in her ability to love her children. She seems to simply expect and take for granted financial support from her husband. In Anna Karenina, even though Kitty goes away and grows up in the process, Levin is not turning to her for intellectual interaction in the closing passages of the book.

Perhaps Andrew is catching on to this and it's part of his reluctance to come home?

Was he gone longer than he had agreed upon his father's insistence?

It bothered me to see little evidence that Natasha was receiving training of any sort, even from her mother on running a household. But, astute and observant as Tolstoy is, training and upbringing of children, female or male, is probably not his strength in recording -- although for young adulthood, it is quite another matter.

Poor Natasha. She has a theme of rejection. Everyone tells her to wait for such long times that she can only feel rejected.

Boris
Andrew
Anatole

Cass wrote: "Or perhaps by marrying a young lady they feel they will be better able to control her.

Perhaps they want a devoted mentee rather than an equal."

There's also the issue of children. Children were essential to the upper classes, and they needed many of them since so many died in childbirth or early childhood -- one estimate I've seen is that fewer than a third of pregnancies in the 1800s resulted in children alive at the age of 20.

Younger women were more likely to be able to produce the families these men wanted and needed. And second, third, or even fourth marriages were common; in researching my own family I have found a number of men who buried two or three wives. It would be a disadvantage to marry a 25 or 30 year old woman whose ability to produce heirs was severely limited by her age.

Everyman wrote: "It would be a disadvantage to marry a 25 or 30 year old woman whose ability to produce heirs was severely limited by her age.

That makes sense to me, but how about 18-25? I think I've heard statistics about teenage pregnancies being higher risk for the mother as compared to being in her 20s. I could be wrong?

Lily wrote: "Was he gone longer than he had agreed upon his father's insistence? "

Oh I thought I read something like that in this thread somewhere and although I didn't remember reading it, I thought I had just missed it. Even if that's not true I do remember having a sense that Andrew was using this kind of language a little bit when he was telling her he was leaving. Saying she'll have time to get to know her self, or to be sure of her opinion for him or something 'er other.

@ 20 Lily wrote: "We do get a glimpse that Andrei can be a bit jealous of the attention she is able to attract. ."

I didn't get any sense that Andrei was cruel. And really, my take wasn't that he was in the least bit jealous

We do get a glimpse that Andrei can be a bit jealous of the attention she is able to attract.

I thought he was somewhat disgusted that the same smile she gave to him she gave to others...exactly the same.. and... I thought maybe he was bitter... thinking that when she smiled at him like that in the early days the had mistaken believed that she was smiling at him... and now.. he realizes that those smiles were meaningless... she smiled that way towards all the men.

:) Or anyway, that's how I remember it.

But then...I didn't care for Lise. And it was the scene in which she smiled exactly that same smile for others that put me dead against her.

Good observations about we readers not knowing much of the characters childhoods. That would be so good to know.

@ 17 Lily wrote: "One just occasionally had a sense of a pussycat underneath that impossible demeanor -- that a mask of cruelty and impatience was used to protect vulnerability. Which, of course, often is largely so self defeating.
.."

Excellent. I think you're right on here.

@ 21Patrice wrote: "It seemed very natural for Andre to be in the army as he'd been raised in an extreme, almost military way. Discipline and duty was all. And yes, I do wonder about the mother. I created my own backstory that the mother died giving birth to Marya and the Prince never forgave Marya for taking his wife

Oh, that's very good, too! The army/discipline angle is very reasonable; and the Marya supposition is so romantically conceivable.

Adelle wrote: "But then...I didn't care for Lise."

I wonder whether that's a gender thing? I think she would appeal to many men. I certainly had a fond spot for her.

“You know,” said the princess in the same tone of voice and still in French, turning to a general, “my husband is deserting me? He is going to get himself killed. Tell me what this wretched war is for?”

TOLSTOY, LEO (2011-03-20). Delphi Complete Works of Leo Tolstoy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 14238-14239).

A Lise opinion on cruelty?

But I had more in mind his leaving her with his family among virtual strangers to her while he went off to war. I suspect that may not have seemed like cruelty to Prince Andrei, but how difficult emotionally it must have been for Lise. Let alone his coldness towards her even when they were still back in Petersburg after the ball and when they met with Pierre.

"And among all these faces that he found so tedious, none seemed to bore him so much as that of his pretty wife. He turned away from her with a grimace that distorted his handsome face,..."

Ibid. (Kindle Locations 14392-14393). Bk 1, Chap. 5

"'I’m afraid, I’m afraid!' she whispered, and a shudder ran down her back.

"Her husband looked at her as if surprised to notice that someone besides Pierre and himself was in the room, and addressed her in a tone of frigid politeness.

"'What is it you are afraid of, Lise? I don’t understand,' said he.

"'There, what egotists men all are: all, all egotists! Just for a whim of his own, goodness only knows why, he leaves me and locks me up alone in the country.'

"'With my father and sister, remember,' said Prince Andrew gently.

"'Alone all the same, without my friends.... And he expects me not to be afraid.'"

Ibid. (Kindle Locations 14797-14807). Bk 1, Chap. 7

@ 43 Lily wrote: "For all her fear of him, even her father-in-law seemed to respect and be somewhat charmed by Lise, though he resisted in his own stern way. I got a sense that besides her beauty and charm, Lise ma..."

But I think, just as with his son, the charm of Lise worn thin quickly. Remember the father indicated that Lise should sit down beside him at the dinner. And when Lise relaxed enough to talk she prattled on and gossiped...exactly the kind of "nonsense" the father abhorred in his own daughter. He took her measure and found her wanting, and turned from conversation with her to talk of the campaign. Serious business.

My take was that he took her for a fool...and he had no love for fools. Almost the minute Andrew/Andrei walked into to say goodbye to his father his father turned to him with a laugh (a bitter laugh?)

"It's a bad business, eh?"
"What is bad, Father?"
"The wife!" said the old prince, briefly and significantly.

And as for the child? And the request to have him grow up with the old prince? That wasn't being cruel. Andrew/Andrei didn't want his son to grow up to be fool like his mother (Lise). And the old prince saw it the same way.

"Not let the wife have him?" said the old man, and laughed.

He knows a little boy wouldn't grow up to be a man to be admired were he to grow up under Lise's care.

@ 43 Lily wrote: "
His brother, Prince Ippolit, did flirt with her, and Prince Andrei eventually admitted his jealousy.

My bad. Missed this. Help me out, please, if you remember where this took place. Thanks much.