Fantasy Aficionados discussion
Off Topic
>
FA member opinions on recent Goodreads Events
Robert, I am pretty laid back when it comes to these things. Kinda sitting back and seeing how things fall out. I am disappointed because I feel that I see less activity in my groups due to people's reactions to some of this. All that being said, I had a shelf removed. It was a simple shelf titled "Not for me". It was just a collection of books that I had researched time and time again only to find something that pushed up against my personal triggers - no author animosity or anything like that - was all subject matter related. I was just tired of researching the books to discover, oh yea, I didn't want to read that one because of . . .
I just ignore books that I'm not interested in, especially those I avoid because of "reasons" so I don't put them on shelves. I don't want them connected to my account at all. So I have no shelves that fall under "deletable" categories (whatever those are).This whole ordeal however rubs me the wrong way, especially when they delete perfectly innocent and useful (to the user) shelves like the "not for me" one from Sonja.
For a while I was tempted to just create a couple of crossly named shelves and start filling them up with dingbag authors, because I can be childishly contrary like that at times.
Luckily I recognized the futility of that and just made a Booklikes account instead. It's still lacking in a few places, but it gets added to on a weekly basis. If the situation here deteriorates I'm moving over.
While I don't normally shelve authors I avoid, I did have that shelf (called "thanks but I'll Pass"). It was a mixture of books I kept running into but could be triggering, books that I was supposed to read for BC but didn't cause of the subject matter (to track the BC books) as well as THREE books shelved due to author behavior. I just said fuck it and deleted my entire library. Fuck Goodreads.
I'm done.
I only come here because of friends and this group.
i don't review books at Amazon for a reason. And I refuse to create monetize-able content for OTHERS and I not get a damn dime out of it.
ETA: I even had books on there that I hated the subject matter but I was LOVING the cover (those were also on my "I am a cover whore" shelf).
I don't necessarily mind providing content that will or can be monetized. I understand that for them, this is business. There's an exchange: They provide a community forum, a social network, a database of books, a book catalog/organizational system, an interactive community of book lovers that has been encouraged to freely exchange thoughts and ideas without censorship, and in exchange, they can use my content, and my volunteering to help keep their database updated and neat. I'm perfectly fine with that. I have always allowed my reviews to be shared out to 3rd parties via GR. I post them here, in a public place, so it didn't seem like it was much of a stretch.
But my problem comes in when Amazon suits come in saying, "OK, this is great. A captive audience of 20 Million! *breathes deep* Yum, fresh meat." And then they start taking apart the building blocks of the community that has been created here.
It's no longer a site that can be trusted for unbiased, honest reviews, because GR/Amazon has started deleting content they feel is not "relevant" or that's "off topic" or... whatever. Nobody seems to know what's liable to be deleted, because GR isn't saying. I don't know if they can't, or just won't, but it's a sorry state of affairs either way. They are now resorting to "Email us if you're not sure if your content is acceptable" value judgements on a case-by-case basis, which is troubling, not only in the fact that it's completely, ridiculously subjective, but also because it's hidden.
They are no longer dealing in the open, in a way that is consistent & visible to everyone, and that concerns me a lot because it means that they KNOW their guidelines are utter crap, and they are singling out content that has been deemed "contextually problematic" for sales and their image.
I've decided to keep reviewing here, because I love the community and I don't want to give that up. I may revise that decision depending on how things go.
I'm angry and disappointed in Goodreads, but I still think it's the best bookish site out there, and I have too many good friends here to leave right now.
Becky wrote: "Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 716 comments I don't necessarily mind providing content that will or can be monetized. I understand that for them, this is business. There's an exchange: They provide a community forum, a social network, a database of books, a book catalog/organizational system, an interactive community of book lovers that has been encouraged to freely exchange thoughts and ideas without censorship, and in exchange, they can use my content, and my volunteering to help keep their database updated and neat.I'm perfectly fine with that. I have always allowed my reviews to be shared out to 3rd parties via GR. I post them here, in a public place, so it didn't seem like it was much of a stretch. "
I USED to feel that way. But it seems that those feels get taken advantage of in bad for me ways.
Make FB popular? FB goes batshit crazy with your personal info (privacy breeches, etc). But at the same time the owner of FB is buying ALL THE HOUSES in his area because HIS privacy was being invaded.
The irony. How it burns.
Make GR popular? GR goes batshit crazy, sells us out to Amazon and then dismantles the place they bought brick by brick.
This does not help me any.
I'm starting to be very ok with just buying services and saying goodbye to any "free" network.
I bought my domain when I decided to blog after the GRAmmy buy.
I bought Book Collectorz to log my library.
I have a paid for lifetime subscription to LT and I bought a yearly to my social network exercise site.
I've decided to make it a little more difficult to monetize me. If I'm going to be a prostitute I'll sling pussy & collect the money myself instead of slinging it for some pimp to get paid.
Becky wrote: "I'm angry and disappointed in Goodreads, but I still think it's the best bookish site out there, and I have too many good friends here to leave right now. "I love yall - the only reason I hang around here AT ALL. Seriously. At all.
Robert, your group mods have been heavily involved. My deletion experience:
https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/...
After reading this, I now know why books no longer have the section on their web page that indicates what shelves other GoodReads members have put the book on.I liked that feature, even though many of the shelves were useless to anyone else (e.g. "Kindle-freebie"). And there would often be many different shelves that were really the same thing, but just expressing the thought slightly differently for each person (e.g. "free-for-kindle", "free-kindle-book", etc.)
Goodreads should have replaced that section with what were "acceptable" tags for books. Things like genres (which still appear on a very few books) or aspects of the book (i.e. "paranormal", "vampires", "zombies", "romance", etc.).
I have not had any shelves or reviews deleted. I have taken the 2 books off a shelf I called "author to avoid". The shelf remains....it's just empty now. I left these 2 books on my will not read shelf and have left the comment section of the books intact ie. the reason I will not read, basically a note for myself as a reminder of why I will not read (it is regarding author behaviour that I came across in my interaction here on GR that made me decide that I did not wish to support these authors - plain and simple). My contributions in the way of reviews is very small and I won't be missed at all but I am so upset about the whole situation that I refuse to write any more about the books I read on this site. I have set up a booklikes account. I come here to participate in the groups I am currently in until booklikes gets closer to being comfortable and then will move fully over there. The whole thing is just wrong and very sad.
One of the things that really strike me about this is the sheer incompetence that seems be rampant among Goodreads staff. You'd think they have never witnessed any sort of PR fail before, since they are making all the classic mistakes. It's ridiculous really.
Agree, KevinB. They always seem to think that silence is the best policy once things start to go bad. Say nothing that will dig the hole deeper... But silence just makes people angrier, especially from a company which has always been open and honest and transparent before.
It's extremely disappointing.
I haven't had any problems but my opinion of this site and the people who use it has decreased markedly. There's a lot of scum here. I no longer waste a lot of time here and am happier because of it.
I didn't have any problems with deletion either, but then I feel more lonely here because many good reviewers that are also my friends are fleeing the site. In general, I agree with the prevalent opinion: this site is going down, piece by piece, because of its new owners. On the other hand, its programing is the best of any book sites I've tried so far. It's comfortable to use and very versatile. I'm staying for now. What happens next, when some other restrictions come into play - I don't know. I have a page on Booklikes and on LibraryThing, so we'll see.
The silly part of this - to me - is that one of the reasons Amazon bought this place was because they [amazon] created a toxic environment on their own flora. The readers and authors started to clash (for basically the same reasons). Two of the largest Romance groups here are Amazon "refugees" who ran to GR when they no longer were happy/comfortable at Amazon. And the amazon flora turned into a bunch of authors spamming each other. Instead of learning from their mistake, Amazon simply purchased GR (and shelfari) and turned it (or will turn) into Amazon...
...And the readers are fleeing again.
No one wants to feel like a fish in a barrel.
I haven't had anything deleted and like KevinB, I just ignore books and authors I don't like or agree with. However, I depended on more vocal and energetic users to keep me informed of the unsavoury books and authors.When the Amazon buyout was announced way back in the spring, I had already stopped posting reviews, though I found that a painful decision to make. I have serious issues with Amazon and their ruthless (but successful) business policies and I didn't want to benefit them in any way, even if that was by contributing my own small bit of content.
So I began working on a personal blog, a slow and long process severely delayed by my OCD tendencies and lack of technical skills. I plan to continue posting reviews, with just a short intro then a link to the blog.
What I found most valuable about Goodreads is the interaction that comes from reviews and their comments and the Groups. LibraryThing severely lacks that social element, and Amazon and Shelfari were filled with squealing barely coherent fans and every other option were just slick list making catalogues. Goodreads has possibly the best system for people to share their bookish thoughts and discuss them, a system I feel their current policies really undermine.
But I found myself needing to take a break - the whole debacle just really dampened my enthusiasm and left me with an unpleasant bitter aftertaste. But I missed everybody here and their pert opinions and discussion, so like everyone else, I'm backing up my data and storing it elsewhere, salvaging what I can while I wait and see what happens next.
Sophie--if you have time, check out BookLikes. Its starting to fill that social need. They added groups last week and continue to add weekly improvements. I agree, it also dampens my enthusiasm.
I've done some BookLikes scouting, figured I'd wait till it settled some and scuttle in after the main exodus finished. Glad to see how responsive they've been.
Sophie wrote: "But I found myself needing to take a break - the whole debacle just really dampened my enthusiasm and left me with an unpleasant bitter aftertaste. But I missed everybody here and their pert opinions and discussion, so like everyone else, I'm backing up my data and storing it elsewhere, salvaging what I can while I wait and see what happens next. "This is how I feel. But the moment GRAmmy gets involved with the groups in any way...I'm out here.
I've already deleted my books. I have one foot out the door already.
But I am grateful to GR being a bunch of jackasses (in a way). I have a lot more free time now. :-)
I can now deadlift over 100lbs and I'm working on getting my squat up to at least .75% of my bodyweight.
*flexes muscles that I would not have if I still spent all my time on GR doing volunteer work*
The longer this goes on with stoney silence from GoodReads/Amazon ...The more I read from users whose opinions I know and trust ...
The closer I am coming to the sad conclusion that it's time to start shopping for an alternative. (Wasn't impressed by LibraryThing, but I'm hearing many good things about BookLikes.)
I went through this with B&N when their review system broke, they pretty much disengaged from their user boards, and the forums themselves became full of user-to-user drama. I'm still there, but much less active & enthusiastic.
Goodreads was (emphasis on was) a revelation. It wasn't perfect, but it had so many of the things I wanted it to be, particularly a great way to catalog my books.
If GR doesn't get its act together, I guess I'll probably stick around the social aspects, but it may be time to kick my blog back in to life and move my reviews there.
I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's in?
R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's in?"
You're a site developer? *rubs hands together*
I think the recent eBook dramas have shown that most companies involved in independent publishing have poor management teams. Don't expect a lot of changes; the prevailing corporate mentality of the world today when trouble arises is to batten down the hatches and weather the storm, making as few changes as possible and hoping the mess goes away by itself.
R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's in?"
I'd join you...I can site develop :D.
I just want a site filled with good books and the people that love them.
MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's in?"
You're a ..."
Unfortunately, no, I am not really a site developer. I still haven't figured out how to convert a pdf to a MOBI. I have an old fashioned flip phone because I don't want to learn how to use something modern. I wash my dishes by hand.
But I do think it's a good idea. We wouldn't be the first or last to try, and some of you (Lucinda) have a lot more know-how than I do. Can anyone offer a reasonable guess as to the start up costs for something like that? My gut tells me it would be way out of my budget (pretty much anything is). Maybe I'm starting to take this too seriously...
R.A. wrote: "MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refug..."If no-one is a startup entrepreneur or willing to run and maintain servers as well as the site, and you're really serious, then you might want to look at a social network platform--something like ning, maybe:
http://www.ning.com/
You can have 10,000 members hosted for $49 a month, or 100,000 for $99.
There might be other social net platforms too--I don't know. But I guess it gives you a ballpark of startup costs--they'd be way lower if you can get a real startup type person onboard, although the man hours would be higher.
If it happens, I'm happy to pitch in with a bit of coding, but I've already got a fulltime job, so I don't have the time to actually start a site myself. Also, I'm not sure what utility you're looking for that Booklikes doesn't have. Anything like this would have to start from scratch, which means less features.
Greg wrote: "I think the recent eBook dramas have shown that most companies involved in independent publishing have poor management teams. Don't expect a lot of changes; the prevailing corporate mentality of t..."It also shows me that I should not (and will not) read SPA written books unless I know the author personally.
I will not take any more review requests. I'm done with that. I don't have time for the batshit crazy drama.
I also will not give any other company much data. I'm done volunteering.
Carly wrote: "R.A. wrote: "MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR..."that looks cool
Lucinda wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's in?"
I'd join ..."
We should start a kickstarter.
MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with GR/Amazon refugees I can sell out to Amazon and make a fortune.Who's..."
Kickstarter is a fantastic place to raise venture money...IF you have a working prototype, a sound business plan, and a reasonable expectation of success.
I think it would work if a small scale site were developed and then you Kickstarted start-up costs to scale it to enterprise level.
...BUT...you'd have to develop content that did not already duplicate existing Bibliophile sites. There would need to be some very valid reason for users (both readers and authors) to abandon what's already on the web to join the new site.
One thing I would include from the beginning is user "ownership" of reviews AND a tool that would easily let you export everything you've ever written in XML format so that it's portable (you leave the site, you take your stuff). I'm not advocating unmoderated anarchy of posted content; I am advocating responsibility. Users ARE responsible for what they post and it belongs to them.
...and, as any good hockey mom knows, the referee (the site) has to take control of the tone of the game from the first puck drop or it just gets real ugly...just my opinion, I could be wrong, lol.
I think your paragraph right there--user ownership of reviews and ability to export--would differentiate it enough. I'd pay an annual membership and help kickstart in the hopes of keeping it independent forever. I'd buy a membership in Booklikes too, if Dawid made that his goal.
Lucinda wrote: "MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "R.A. wrote: "I'm starting to think I should quit writing and start another bookclub site. When it's filled with..."Carol. [Unicorns and Rainbows] wrote: "I think your paragraph right there--user ownership of reviews and ability to export--would differentiate it enough. I'd pay an annual membership and help kickstart in the hopes of keeping it indep..."
What carol said.
While I am FAR from a web developer, I have helped to design websites in the past. I have some ideas but I can barely spell HTML, let alone create a site.
My husband taught himself to create websites but he's not into books like that so he wouldn't find it a big enough challenge to assist. :(
ETA: The biggest thing I would want included is the ability to delete comments from a site without deleting entire accounts - and leaving a place holder that said "deleted comment here" or something.
Robert wrote: "Not to inflame anyone's passions further (plenty of that in the Feedback group), but I was wondering what the members here perspectives were on the recent & ongoing debate, for lack of a better ter..."To answer your original questions Robert,
No, I have not had any shelves or reviews deleted
I have also not changed how I write reviews. In fact, I hardly write reviews anyway. When I do, I am more likely to write one for a book I really like. If I really hate a book, mostly likely I won't finish it, so I won't write a review.
I don't have the time to waste for that. I think the only reason I might write a bad review would be if the author was really offensive, like writing hateful things that would encourage hatred, violence or prejudice against and group of people.
Otherwise I try and look for books that I am going to enjoy because I read for pleasure.
So that goes to answer your 3rd question. No, I have not changed the way I shelve. I shelve according to the type of books and not according to how I like them.
The reason I go on GR is to discover new books. I used to prefer using the Fantastic Fiction site,but then I discovered the groups on Goodreads and found a couple of them, like this one, that were a lot of fun.
I have noticed that a lot less people are posting. Not just in this group but in other groups as well. And recently I find many of the posters are authors who really just want to promote their own works.
I really enjoy these discussions and would miss them, so please let me know where I can find all of you again if you leave!
Jalilah, I noticed the same thing: people are withdrawing from GR. Participation is dropping. It's such a pity. Especially this group - it was such a vibrant community before.
I have seen a lot of comments on other groups I belong to on GR about this change. I wasn't personally affected and I was surprised at how surprised other people were. Changes certainly weren't handled well from a PR standpoint, but we don't own this site or pay anything for it. Especially with the sale to Amazon, I was always aware we are a population to be sold to. Anyone is free to join (or start) other sites. Possibly if there is enough feedback, GR will reconsider, but hateful posts from readers and/or authors (the supposed reason for the change) would drive me away more quickly than concerns about censorship. There are still plenty of reviews with a range of opinions about any one book. And I don't base my decisions of what to read solely on reviews from here, Amazon or any other one source.
I was not one of the people affected but I have pretty much left Goodreads. I remain only to participate in the groups. That is it. I am a prolific reviewer, but I am not reviewing here any longer.I have no problem with Goodreads a) enforcing their terms or service or b) changing their terms of service. However, in my opinion, this is not precisely what they did. They reinterpreted their TOS so that 'talking about an author' = 'ad hominmen attack' and thus allowed them to summarily delete content from a set of targeted users.
And then they changed their TOS without actually announcing to the site as a whole what the change was. Most sites, when they change their TOS will splash a page or send you an email or something notifying you. GR just posted it in a discussion group that you had to be a member to see.
This, imo, is not only poor customer relations. But is skeevy. It also gives me a disquiet that if they will do something like this so summarily this time, what will they do next? What thing will someone complain about next that will affect me so that my reviews will go away.
Profanity? Gifs? Rating a book I did not finish? Rambling about my personal life too much?
Because they did this in the manner they did it and are still refusing to answer a lot of very legitimate questions and because there seems to be a tonal shift away from a website dedicated to readers to one that is veering toward being dedicated writers, I don't really feel like this is the place for me anymore.
Tina wrote: "Because they did this in the manner they did it and are still refusing to answer a lot of very legitimate questions and because there seems to be a tonal shift away from a website dedicated to readers to one that is veering toward being dedicated writers, I don't really feel like this is the place for me anymore."For me, this is the crux of it. Goodreads was a reader community, the business was the underbelly that we hardly ever saw. Then Amazon came in, and suddenly the business is front and centre, right in your face and not really concerning themselves with the fact that they are invading what was once your personal space. It was like coming home to find someone had redecorated, threw away some of your things and told you where to put your shoes and hang your coat.
There's a very uncomfortable uncertainty about what is and is not allowed in a review and on your shelves. There's an oppressive sense that if the rules changed so drastically once, they can easily do so again.
There's also been some buzz on twitter about the fact that the average star rating of books seem to have risen since the policy change. I'm not quite sure how this was measured, comparing average GR ratings for a book compared to average ratings from personal book blogs, I believe. This exactly what happened to Amazon and Shelfari - they became huge billboards for products and honest book discussion gets lost in a sea of sales talk and uncritical fan-boosting.
I'm not leaving this or my other two groups, as Robert has said, there are many people here I trust not to lead me astray (and if they do, it's with good intentions) but I've lost faith in general reviews and Goodreads statistics. That cozy cafe feeling of the site is fast fading, and for me, only remains in the groups. The rest of the site is like walking into a department store.
@Jalilah if you didn't already know, here's a page with FA members personal book blogs listed, one I think will be growing:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Perfect conceptualization, Sophie. Cafe versus department store. Yes, I always knew there was a money angle, but it didn't feel quite so front and center. Now it feels like a professional, large scale business.
It hasnt affected me much, except for the 'vibe'. I miss the convivial spirit we had here, and I am afraid it may be gone for good :(I did a 'test shelf that has only one book init, and did not get involved in the feedback debate, and guess what? My Authors on Ignore shelf is still there! This makes me think they are watching certain people, which makes it even worse
I agree that it would be great if we could somehow manage to get it together to start our own site :) Im no good at computer codes but I can do admin!
I think Maggie's on to something with specific reviewers being targeted. I did a shelf as a small test too-one that should have been obviously tongue-in-cheek called "authors who are mean to me" with a Charlotte Bronte book that I had actually rated highly but which had an ending that made me want to travel back in time and smack her. Just wanted to see if my little shelf would be caught in the web of ridiculousness simply because of the name, but so far it hasn't.
Emily.....maybe it would need to be flagged first.
Shelves too? I knew the reviews did. I guess I don't completely understand how it works. I figured I wasn't on anyone's radar (which I'm sure is true-I'm not very controversial or prolific), but what you said makes sense.
The other thing that is now out of control (and has always been a problem) is authors and the whole publicity plug. "yes, I can see how you might not like this. In MY book . . . " blah blah blah. Makes me crazy. Does not make me go look you up. Makes me put you on my ignore list. Oh, wait, I can't DO that anymore.
I've noticed the 'Hi, my name is book book book book book book, go look at my website, book book book website.' is growing!
Me too. Nothing is going to drive me away faster than that, especially if I can't make note of it in my shelving. Now that MrsJ and I made FA 'request to join,' it's really cut down on that kind of self-promotion.
It's really strong in the UK group I'm on. I always welcome everyone except those!! I've loved being on this site but because of the people and book chat. By the way, I followed you else where- I'm hid.
Helen wrote: I've loved being on this site but because of the people and book chat."Exactly! I don't care what you do for a living, where you live, or what color your kitchen walls are painted...all I want to know is "What did you think of *this book* we just read :D.
That being said, I like the passive self-promotion section on FA. I have downloaded and read several really good pieces after meeting the author on the boards here.
Lucinda wrote: "Kickstarter is a fantastic place to raise venture money...IF you have a working prototype, a sound business plan, and a reasonable expectation of success. "True.
Olga wrote: "Jalilah, I noticed the same thing: people are withdrawing from GR. Participation is dropping. It's such a pity. Especially this group - it was such a vibrant community before."Participation is dropping because a lot of this is the "straw."
First the withdrawal of Amazon data had volunteers running for weeks. After the repair came the sell - and this newest load of BS is the straw. I guess I was too involved with GR. It would be better if I wasn't a heavy user.
I'm asking here because I have just been too depressed by the drama and acrimony in the main threads. Also, members here have always seemed able to discuss polarizing topics with a high degree of respect.
What I'm most curious about, more so than where you fall on the spectrum of opinions on the matter, is how these issues have effected you.
• Have any of your shelves or reviews been deleted?
• Has it changed how or if you review books here?
• Have you renamed any of your shelves?
• Etc.
There are so many unfamiliar members involved in the general Feedback thread, I really would like to hear from the subsection of members in this group. The trust and respect I have for this group gives your insights a little more credence than unknown members sharing their "it didn't happen to me, but I know this guy who said he had his shelf deleted for no reason" stories. I'm not saying these anecdotes are false, just that ones from familiar members hold a little more weight with me.
Thanks,
Robert