Breaking Dawn discussion

I didn't realize why did Rosalie care for Bella in this book, and why did Bella call Rosalie when she knew about her pregnancy and asked for help?

Bella called Rosalie because she knew she was the only one who would be on her side. When the family voted on whether they should turn Bella into a vampire earlier she voted no because she felt that she missed out on human things like having a baby. When Rosalie first told Bella about when she was turned she told her about her past and how jealous she was of her one friend who had a baby. Rosalie wanted to have a child and had those chances stolen from her she was turned into a vampire. Rosalie cared for Bella because she cared for the child. I don't think she really cared much about what would happen to Bella. She wanted a baby and she could have that wish fulfilled through Bella.

Yes, Rosalie would be the only person who would be 100% on her side when it came to having the baby. And she knew that Rosalie was strong enough to keep everyone at bay for sure.

I disagree that she did not care for Bella. She was thankful that Bella saved her brother, and actually voted no, not because she was trying to be contrary, but because she wished that someone would have been able to be there to vote no for her as she would not have chosen the life of a vampire if she had a choice.

Yes, she was jealous of Bella, but only because she was still human and had all the choices and was frustrated that she was not making (in her mind) the right choice. But when it came to the baby, which she felt she had been denied due to the choice that made her frozen in time, she was all for Bella making that choice.

I think she did care, but from a different perspective, but the baby was the driving force.

I seem to recall Leah actually explaining this to Jacob in a way that I thought made great sense:

Bella, in chosing to have the child, is finally making the choice that Rosalie herself would have made. They are finally in agreement on something, so Rosalie is is willing to help Bella. I think Leah actually says something like she would have done the same thing and supported Bella, even though she pretty much hates her.

Good one, Sandra!

I do politely disagree ;-)

Rosalie is nice to Bella because she wants to be able to spend time with Renesmee, because vampires can't have any babies and Rose desperately wants one. Although I'm not sure why Bella called Rosalie instead of Alice or Esmee.

Bailey wrote: "Although I'm not sure why Bella called Rosalie instead of Alice or Esmee. "

I always assumed that she chose Rosalie instead because she was the only one who would not really consider Bella's life in the equation. Even if Alice and Esme understood Bella's desire to protect her baby just as much as Rosalie did, they might could have been persuaded by Carlisle and Edward on the basis of Bella's life being in danger. Rosalie didn't love Bella like they did and therefore didn't care as much about her possibly dying- making her the best protector of the fetus.

Kirby wrote: "Bailey wrote: "Although I'm not sure why Bella called Rosalie instead of Alice or Esmee. "

I always assumed that she chose Rosalie instead because she was the only one who would not really conside..."

Agreed.

Yes. I Agee too.

When roaslie told her human life story to bella she had mentioned that after becoming an vampire she craved for having a baby and bella knew this. she also knew that she will help her out for this and this is why she called her regarding this. thus she was caring with bella just because of this.

Yep

I rather thought the way Edward behaved during this part of the story was a little out of place. Think of it from his point of view: his lifemate is bent on committing suicide for an unknown monster. She obviously has no idea of the risks involved, just like with all the past dangers. Edward would sacrifice anything, do anything to guard Bella's safety. So for him to sit back passively and let Rosalie have her way feels really off.

It would have made more sense for him to disable Rosalie, sedate Bella, and have Carlisle perform an abortion. Edward and Rosalie didn't get along that well anyway.

It's because she wanted a husband and family and was jealous of Bella until she got pregnant and needed Rosalie's help. Rosalie finally has a baby/child to care for even if she's an aunt and not a mother. One of her life's desires, which she thought would never happen when she was turned by Carlisle, came true. The desire for children can be overpowering to birth-age women.

Rel8tivity wrote: "I rather thought the way Edward behaved during this part of the story was a little out of place. Think of it from his point of view: his lifemate is bent on committing suicide for an unknown monster. She obviously has no idea of the risks involved, just like with all the past dangers. Edward would sacrifice anything, do anything to guard Bella's safety. So for him to sit back passively and let Rosalie have her way feels really off.

It would have made more sense for him to disable Rosalie, sedate Bella, and have Carlisle perform an abortion. Edward and Rosalie didn't get along that well anyway."

Edward mentioned in his conversation with Jacob that he wanted to try to take Rosalie out and it wasn't a viable option. Disabling Rosalie would have meant taking down Emmett. Not an easy thing to do, and definitely not something Edward could have done without help. He tells Jacob that Carlisle wouldn't support the action with Esme against it, which meant he was pretty much on his own. Alice might have been willing to help, but I doubt Jasper would have been willing for either of them to take the risk, so again, that leaves Edward and ... Edward.

As for making Bella aware of the risks involved, again in his conversation with Jacob, Edward certainly gives the impression that he has been trying to convince Bella how risky it is. Knowing Edward and his temper, I'd be surprised if he wasn't extremely forceful, initially, in stating his opinion. He isn't against yelling at Bella to get his point across (as he did at the end of New Moon when she is proposing being turned into a vampire). But Rosalie was 'feeding her insanity' (I think that's the quote, anyway). So she has Rosalie telling her that Carlisle will make it all safe, and Esme not wanting the child to be aborted, while Carlisle probably gave his honest opinion, but being a positive guy, probably allowed that there was a possibility Bella could survive (if only as a vampire) and so could the baby. Bella, being the eternal optimist, would have thought this was enough. I think Edward's lack of action, by the time we join them, is more based on the fact that, as he says, it makes her sick if he is fighting it. So he's stopped fighting by then, because she's just getting sicker and sicker and he doesn't want to risk making it worse than it already is.

This is what results in his desperate appeal to Jacob, of all people. He knows he's done all he can. His only hope is that she'll listen to Jacob. She doesn't, of course.

Lynne wrote: "Edward mentioned in his conversation with Jacob that he wanted to try to take Rosalie out and it wasn't a viable option. Disabling Rosalie would have meant taking down Emmett. Not an easy thing to do, and definitely not something Edward could have done without help. He tells Jacob that Carlisle wouldn't support the action with Esme against it, which meant he was pretty much on his own. Alice might have been willing to help, but I doubt Jasper would have been willing for either of them to take the risk, so again, that leaves Edward and ... Edward."

Well, sure SM wrote it that way, but it feels like it was a little contrived to place Edward in a corner in that way. Not the first time SM contrived something in this book (don't get me started on the impossibaby or the imprinting). But I think it could have gone down the other road and still made sense.

Edward was supposedly close to Emmett, judging from their interaction in Midnight Sun. I think he could have convinced Emmett to help him out, especially since he knows that Bella is Edward's mate. Disabling Rosalie isn't that big of a deal, since they can re-attach limbs and heads and go on with "life." But it wouldn't have necessarily required disabling Rosalie. Just hold on to her and keep her from preventing Edward from sedating Bella and taking her away. She'd be pissed off at Emmett for a long time, but that mate bond means she'll eventually cool off. Edward would owe Emmett big time.

Esme wouldn't have supported it, but I don't think she would have taken action against them if they tried. She doesn't strike me as one who would raise a hand against her "children." Likewise, I don't think Carlisle would take action either. He might be saddened if Edward went against his wishes, but he wouldn't prevent him.

I agree that Alice would have helped, since this is her best friend's life at stake, and she can't see that Bella has a future. But I think Jasper would have helped too, since that is what Alice would have wanted, and Alice does what Alice wants. And with Jasper neutralizing any aggressive impulses, it would have been easier to pull it off.

Of course, the plot would have gone spinning down a completely different path, but it would have made for some good family drama. Romantic drama too, something that the last book could have used more of.

Rel8tivity wrote: "Disabling Rosalie isn't that big of a deal, since they can re-attach limbs and heads and go on with "life." "

While she would have survived ultimately, it's difficult to imagine Emmett agreeing to stand by while his wife is torn limb from limb. If someone said to you, 'Look, I've got a disagreement with the love of your life that could risk my love's life. Do you mind if I just break a few of his/her bones to get him/her out of the way so I can save my girl?' would you really say yes, or would you suggest that maybe some other solution was better? I think I'd be reluctant to okay it if someone wanted to do it to my husband! :-)

Also, in SM's vampire world, although they can be put back together, they do still feel pain (and in a heightened sense from the way we do, as well) and pulling someone's legs, arms and head off would hurt a lot. So I find it difficult to imagine that Emmett would allow something like that to happen to the woman he loves. Not to mention that they are all still vampires, and the mate bond, as you pointed out, is stronger than their family bonds. Although Emmett loves his family, he would choose his wife's well being over Bella's. And if Rosalie has convinced Emmett that this is the best course of action that would be another mark against it.

Esme may not be able to raise a hand against her children, but Carlisle still listens to her. Edward tells Jacob that Carlisle won't help with Esme against it. I think this probably also means that he won't even perform the abortion, especially if it means rending Rosalie limb from limb to do so. Although Edward has had some medical training, he has never practiced, and I can see him being reluctant to perform an abortion on Bella himself without Carlisle at least there to help. So what can Edward do if Carlisle won't help him? It could risk Bella's life even more if he tries to act by himself. Without Carlisle's support, he is sunk.

Lynne wrote: "While she would have survived ultimately, it's difficult to imagine Emmett agreeing to stand by while his wife is torn limb from limb. If someone said to you, 'Look, I've got a disagreement with the love of your life that could risk my love's life. Do you mind if I just break a few of his/her bones to get him/her out of the way so I can save my girl?' would you really say yes, or would you suggest that maybe some other solution was better? I think I'd be reluctant to okay it if someone wanted to do it to my husband! :-)"

Good point, it is more than just an inconvenience for a vampire to have limbs torn off. We do get Riley screaming quite nicely at the end of Eclipse.

However, I did say it wasn't necessary to disable Rosalie. Emmett could have wrapped her up in a bear hug until Edward got away with Bella. Maybe a little longer to give him a head start. I think Emmett could have been easily convinced to just hold his wife, and not hurt her.

Carlisle listens to his wife, but he also listens to Edward. Edward convinced Carlisle that they all had to move, for Bella's safety. This is also for Bella's safety, as well as Edward's happiness. Carlisle advised against carrying the baby to term from the very beginning. I think the desire to save his patient would weigh significantly against the wishes of his wife. So I still don't see him lifting a hand against Edward if he wants to do something for Bella's safety.

The way I see it, Edward isn't on his own. He'll have Alice, Jasper (the most experienced fighter they have), and Emmett helping him. Rosalie is the only one who will take an active role against him.

I also think the vampire with two medical degrees will manage. He has all the knowledge, he just hasn't gone into private practice. The question is whether he'd allow himself to be paralyzed with self-doubt, and let his wife die due to his inaction, or would he choose to act? Once he got her away from Rosalie, I'm pretty sure he would act. I don't see Edward as being helpless without Carlisle.

I still think the Rosalie situation is a bigger deal than you're allowing, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

I think that Edward and Bella named Emitt and Rosalie the god parents in case anything happened to them.

Lynne wrote: "I still think the Rosalie situation is a bigger deal than you're allowing, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree."

No, I agree with the point that hurting Rosalie would be a non-starter. You're right, no way Emmett would go with that. But I think Emmett can be convinced to hold on to her and keep her from interfering with Edward, Alice or Jasper. He and Edward are close, Emmett would like to see Edward happy, and all he has to do is grab his mate for a few minutes while Edward grabs Bella and makes a break for it.

You're right, I don't see Rosalie as a big factor. But then, I did say I thought it was a little contrived. :) Nothing in canon tells me she can hold off three vampires by herself. Even if Emmett doesn't go along with it, if it comes to a fight, Alice can take Jasper, so I have no doubt she can take Emmett or Rosalie. Edward 'cheats' with his telepathy so has a clear advantage over both Emmett and Rosalie. And Jasper is Jasper. So it's hard for me to see that the way it played out was the only way.

I think this is one of the drawbacks for this episode being presented after the fact and through Jacob's POV. We don't see the attempts that Edward made to negotiate with his family, or try to convince Bella to give up the baby. So it comes across a little hollow that he's given up so easily.

Yes, but knowing how much Edward fights for Bella's life, to the extent that he told her, in New Moon, that he didn't love her and left so she wouldn't become a vampire, I think there's every reason to believe that he did fight as hard as he could. He has a history of going above and beyond when it comes to Bella's safety. I think this is another reason why Emmett is on Rosalie's side. He knows that Edward overreacts when it comes to Bella's safety. Carlisle thinks she could survive long enough, but only if she's turned into a vampire, and Bella was planning to become one anyway, so Emmett has probably been convinced by Rosalie that Edward is just doing his normal overreaction to the situation. And even as Emmett himself may noticed Bella getting worse, by then he probably figures he's thrown his hat in on Rosalie's side, and changing by then could definitely put his wife in significant danger.

Lynne wrote: "Yes, but knowing how much Edward fights for Bella's life, to the extent that he told her, in New Moon, that he didn't love her and left so she wouldn't become a vampire, I think there's every reaso..."

Sure, we're told he's done all he can, but we haven't seen it presented, so it's still open to debate. That's the problem with telling and not showing, it just doesn't have the same impact or certainty.

I think you give a fair assessment of Emmett, but it still doesn't affect Edward's decisions. I'm certain that Edward would move even if Emmett was against him. It's his mate, after all, and Emmett should understand that. Furthermore, there wasn't enough certainty in Carlisle's mind that Bella would survive childbirth to be changed. Edward can see Carlisle's doubt, see that in Alice's vision, Bella's future ends. That's plenty of motivation to do what he needs to do, even if it's against his family and against Bella's wishes. He can apologize to her later, but he can't if she's dead.

Either way, I see two scenarios that can play out, with or without Emmett's help. Both would result in Edward spriting Bella away, and fall more in line with him doing everything he could to preserve her life. With Emmett's help, it's easier. He grabs Rosalie and Edward takes off with Bella. Without Emmett's help, he and Rosalie are still outnumbered. Alice and Jasper just have to hold on to Emmett and Rosalie, to allow Edward to escape. Nobody has to get hurt. Even if Esme and Carlisle get involved to separate the combatants, that leaves Edward free to make his move.

And in an odd twist, Jacob would be on Edward's side too, because he has his own reasons for Bella to have an abortion and not need to be changed to a vampire for survival.

My point is, I think Edward did have options, and it was too contrived to assume he was at an impasse. Perhaps these were options that SM didn't take, because of the strife involved. Look at how much effort she went to, to avoid strife in this book. Jacob imprinting on the impossibaby negates strife between the Cullens and the pack. Nahuel and his sisters negates strife between the Volturi and the Cullens. One of the things that SM has stated is that she lets the character's motivations lead her story. I think that was true of the first three books, but not as much in this one.

Anyway, I suppose you're right and we should agree to disagree. We seem to do that alot. :) I suppose our respective ratings of the book should have been the hint! :) I'm glad we can have a civilized discussion about it, though.

Yes, we definitely should agree to disagree. I believe Rosalie is a significant issue and one that would have to be removed forcefully before any of the scenarios you suggest could come to pass. Emmett would never stand by and let that happen. You believe differently. So we'll just let bygones be bygones, because it's difficult for me to find the time needed to spend on these conversations! :-)

But isn't it because of the fact that Rosalie would do anything to have a baby of her own? Bella knows that, and she also knows that Edward and Carlisle will do everything in their power to remove the 'thing' growing in Bella. I think that Bella asked for Rosalie's help because she knows that if she has Rosalie by her side, she will help make Carlisle and Edward think about trying to postpone the abortion of Nessie. That's how I see it.

That's absolutely true. That was Rosalie's motivation in helping Bella, and Bella's motivation in asking for her help.

Rosalie is very caring to Bella because of Renesmee. She has always wanted children, because vampires can't have children, so she was very protective of this baby. Plus, even though she would hate to admit it, Bella is family, and Rosalie loves her.

Jordan wrote: "Rosalie is very caring to Bella because of Renesmee. She has always wanted children, because vampires can't have children, so she was very protective of this baby. Plus, even though she would hate ..."

I dunno. At this point in the story, it didn't feel to me like Rosalie was at the point of loving Bella. She tolerated her because of Edward, and may have started to thaw. But it still felt like she was more interested in the baby than Bella, to me.

I think Rosalie liked Bella after she fought to keep Renesmee, but even while the Bella was going through the pregnancy, she was more interested in the baby's wellbeing than Bella's. That kind of response is pretty consistent with her character.

she was only caring because of the baby. bella was going to have a baby which was one of roselis' deepest desires since before she was turned.she could have cared less if bella survived the birth or not.

Bella had the option to become a vampire, Rosalie on the other hand, did not. She didn't want Bella to make the wrong decision.

Bookworm wrote: "she was only caring because of the baby. bella was going to have a baby which was one of roselis' deepest desires since before she was turned.she could have cared less if bella survived the birth o..."

No, even before Bella became pregnant, she was against Bella being turned

Well yeah, but she never hated Bella. Just disagreed with her. I don't know, I think towards the end of BD she started to think of Bella as family, but I definitely see what you guys are talking about. She is definitely obsessed with Nessie.

Rosalie never hated Bella she just disagreed with her choice to become a vampire. In Eclipse she tells the Cullens and Bella that it wasn't something she would choose for herself and wished there had been someone to vote no for her. When Bella chose to save Renesmee she made a choice Rose would have and the two joined together to save Renesmee and became friends though that.

Balletprincess wrote: "Rosalie never hated Bella she just disagreed with her choice to become a vampire. In Eclipse she tells the Cullens and Bella that it wasn't something she would choose for herself and wished there h..."

I disagree. Rosalie hated Bella for the threat she posed to the entire family. From Twilight through the whole series she was against her becoming part of their family. Initially it was because if the Volturi found out they would destroy them for exposing vampires to humans. Also Rosalie was initially planned for Edwards mate but he didn't take to her vanity and selfishness. Rosalie was jealous that Edward wanted the plain, awkward human girl over her. The reason she helped her with the baby was because all she ever wanted was to be married to a rich man and have babies. While she appreciated that Bella saved Edward she never really liked her. She grabbed that baby out of Bella and never looked back.

How is rose jealous of Edwards love for bella she is in love with Emmett enough to marry him over and over. it seems we have different views when it comes to Rosalie s feelings for bella so I'm going to stop following this topic because it's quickly turning into a pointless fight respect others options.

Balletprincess wrote: "How is rose jealous of Edwards love for bella she is in love with Emmett enough to marry him over and over. it seems we have different views when it comes to Rosalie s feelings for bella so I'm goi..."

I never said Rose wasn't in love with Emmett. But she could not figure out why Edward wanted Bella when he never looked twice at her. It was a vanity thing nothing else. And I was respecting your opinion. I just expressed mine. It is not my fault that you don't like that it is different from yours and took offense.

Angelique wrote: "Balletprincess wrote: "How is rose jealous of Edwards love for bella she is in love with Emmett enough to marry him over and over. it seems we have different views when it comes to Rosalie s feelin..."

I wasn't offrended I just didn't understand why you thought Rosalie hated Bella. That is all. I accept that everyone has an opinion and now I can understand why you think that and it makes sense. some people on other forums I've been on have tried to argue the point and it gets ugly fast. But on goodreads it doesn't happen so thank you for keeping this a place where we can all share our thoughts without judgments.

She wanted the baby.

Rosalie basically wanted the baby, that's why she was willing to let bella die for the baby. she was thought that she could get a family like she's always wanted with rennesame (not sure how to spell :D) so yeah.. well that's what i think, it explains why rosalie was so caring and protective of bella, coz she wanted to ensure the baby will be okay :)

Bella and Rosalie are sort of like frenemies who get past their old differences and become loyal allies for a common cause. Renesme. It's kind of like the show Scandal. Olivia and Mellie working together to get and keep Fitz in the White House. They become best buds because they both care for the same things and are working toward the same goals. She didn't like Bella much at first and disagreed with her decision to become a vampire....but she completely understood Bella's desire to keep her baby.

The reason Bella called Rosalie was because she knew that Rosalie had always wanted a child and would never spare the life of her child even when the others wanted to.

Rosalee didnt get to have any children and as a vampire she cannot have them either. She wanted a family and didnt get the chance. So when Bella found out she was pregnant she knew that Rosalee would help her keep the baby when everyone else was against it.

I think that Rosalie has been very mean to Bella in the past. But she has her reasons. She envy's Bella. I mean come on, Rosalie will never be able to live a life that Bella would be able to. But, I think that it is sweet that Rosalie would care about Bella, when she didn't have to. I think that maybe people underestimate Rosalie. People deserve second chances. And I do think that Rosalie still likes Bella, even though she is jealous of her. And, I can tell that Bella might warm up to her some day. I think it would still be nice for Bella to go to Alice, but I think that Alice would think the baby would be a bad idea. But it is Bella's baby.
I agree with Jessika, and Rel8tivity :)

(Please reply to me if you disagree, or agree!) ;)

Rose cared for Bella in breaking dawn because Bella was making the same choice she would have made. Rose would risk her life to have a baby and so she would support Bella risking her life to have Renesmee. If I can recall correctly Edward wanted to kill Renesmee to save Bella and Bella ran to Rose because she knew Rose would help her protect Renesmee. Because Edward saw how much Bella truly was in love and invested in their baby he let her live in pain with the baby, I give him credit for this. The reason why Rose wasn't so caring for Bella previously was because Rose wanted what Bella had. She wanted to be a human again and she wanted to have a. baby. Rose also didn't see why Bella would throw all of this away to be with Edward. Rose in addition to this was jealous of Bella because Edward was the only person who didn't find Rose attractive and Edward found Bella attractive. She was upset by this because she wanted the spotlight of beauty to be on her in everyone's mind and it wasn't a spotlight in Edward's mind.