Beyond Reality discussion

Okay, this is a stupid question, I know, but can anyone help sort out these genres. I'm trying to write some sort of paper on Anita Blake, and I would like to know how people see the following genres.

1. What is urban fantasty - is it just Emma Bull and Charles deLint or does it also include L.K. Hamilton, Kelley Armstrong, etc? (I think the answer to this is that all are urban)

2. What is paranormal romance? Is it just vampires (trolls, demons etc) and sex or is it the "girlY" or "woman" oriented urban fantasy?

3. WHat is paranormal fantasy? I've heard the term used before but can't find a good defination.

Ummmm, well, I'll do my best but this is just my opinion. Urban fantasy takes place in an urban setting, usually present day or close to it. Occasionally there is resolution. Paranormal romance is similar to UF but there will always be a resolution, a Happily Ever After. Some books may blur the lines but the way I sperarate the two is by the type of ending, whether or not there is a HEA.

As for paranormal fantasy, I think that might just be another name for urban fantasy, or maybe a catchall phrase for booksellers to include both UF and PNR.

I'm sure that others will have better explanations but this is how I categorize such books for my shelfs.

My own definitions - how I perceive these genres is:

1. Urban Fantasy - anything that takes place in a world like ours, in a time like ours - but contains elements of fantasy (supernatural, magic). Kinda like an alternate reality.

2. Paranormal romance - first and foremost, I would consider this a sub-genre of 'romance'. Contains paranormal elements - vampires, witches, magic etc.

3. Paranormal fantasy - new to me, but I would guess it's a combo of the first two - an urban fantasy with perhaps a little romance that is not integral to the plot.

Just my two cents: = )

1) I'd classify all of the authors that you listed as 'urban fantasy' (unless it's a paranormal romance by KA, for example. I do think the two are different.) I'd say that a big delimiter of 'urban fantasy' is that it's set in modern times and places, with modern technology. Not all of the genre happens in 'urban' areas, but they are all modern-day. The Family Trade is a good example, although the action in the book moves between our world and two other parallel ones, the main character worries about her job and paying rent [here:] and moves back and forth.

2) I'd say that 'paranormal romance' as a genre is generally a romance story (with varying degrees of sex, but all with a romance/physical attraction as the primary plot, whether or not consummated on the pages), but with paranormal elements. For example, an early Anita Blake book like
Guilty Pleasures is more of a mystery/thriller than it is a romance, so it's an urban fantasy book, but not a paranormal romance. AB is hired by the master vampire of the city to find whoever has been killing vampires. The romance elements in the Anita Blake series have increased over time, so some of the later books are much more 'paranormal romance' than UF. A good example of a paranormal romance author is Karen Marie Moning.

I'm not sure what you mean by ..."girlY" or "woman" oriented urban fantasy..." since I define paranormal romance as being different from urban fantasy. Either way, many of the main characters of both genres tends to be female. Does that make a difference?

3) Did you mean 'paranormal romance'? Pretty much everything 'paranormal' falls into the fantasy realm anyways, even the horror stuff, although that has evolved into it's own genre because in those the paranormal force is malignant/evil. In paranormal romance books, being of a paranormal nature is not inherently evil, thus many of the main characters can be of that sort, with some being bad and some 'good' (or at least characters we like.)


You didn't really define or ask for a definition of 'paranormal' as used in this context, but I'd define it as pertaining to the supernatural (demons, vampires, werewolves, elves, ghosts, gods & goddesses, etc.), the magical (wizards, witches, warlocks, spells, charms, curses, fortune-tellers), or the psionic (mind-reading, telepathy, telekinesis, etc.) with occasional time travel due to any of the aforementioned forces thrown in for good measure.
[The nominal dictionary definition is "Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.":]

Urban Fantasy = The Dresden Files.

Here's how it was described to me:

Paranormal Romance focuses on a couple just like in normal romances, it just has paranomal elements. There is ALWAYS a Happily Ever After (HEA) at the end where they end up together. The first 4 book in the Black Dagger Brotherhood series are a perfect example. Man meets woman, man overcomes obstacles in relationship, love wins out. Classic.

Urban Fantasy is set in today's world (or close to it) with Fantasy elements. It can have vampires, fairies, weres, djinn - anything paranormal. Urban Fantasy can be FULL of sex but if the story is NOT about the relationship it is still Urban Fantasy. Anita Blake is a wonderful example of Urban Fantasy with lots of sex. The plot revolves around Anita's adventures, often times in the bedroom, but there is no HEA for any of the "couples" invovled. In fact, I believe since there is no couple it excludes it from being a romance.

I don't know what Paranormal Fantasy is. Sounds like something for me to go research out.

My own 2 cents
Paranormal Fantasy is an oxymoron, my opinion. Taking a literal translation would be ghosts etc in a fantasy setting? I doubt thats what they mean.

Personally I am getting tired of all these "lables"

I thought paranomal fantasy was an oxymoron as well, which is way I really wanted to know if anyone knew what it was.

Carolyn, I'm not sure I would call the later AB books romance; there really isn't any romance just sex.

I like Carolyn's definition of 'paranormal romance' as a genre is generally a romance story (with varying degrees of sex, but all with a romance/physical attraction as the primary plot, whether or not consummated on the pages), but with paranormal elements. The happily ever after doesn't have to happen at the end of the first novel of a series; sometimes it is "this romance will be continued in the next book in the series". Paranormal romance is told from the woman's perspective.

Paranormal fantasy and urban fantasy: the main thrust of the plot is the adventure/mystery; if romance is present, it is secondary to what the main plot is about. I'd put the difference between the two as being the setting: urban fantasy happens in big cities, and paranormal fantasy does not.

Paranormal fantasy can take place in big cities as well, I've read many that do. And the trademark of paranormal romances, how they are marketed and true for every one I've read, a happily ever after is always present. Urban fantasy may have a romance stretched throughout a series but paranormal romance will provide resolution for the two main characters in each book.

Hi! OK, what is the difference between paranormal fantasy and urban fantasy? Paranormal romance has the romance as the major element, and paranormal fantasy and urban fantasy don't, I get that difference. It's the difference between paranormal fantasy and urban fantasy that I don't see. The setting: urban fantasy happens in big cities, and paranormal fantasy does not: is one attempt by me to differentiate the two. I googled a bit, and the three terms are often used interchangeably.

The question that occurs to me is, Does 'Urban Fantasy' have strictly to do with cities in this world, or are fantasy cities the main settings? I mean places like the Bas-Lag of Miéville's novels, or the Babel (clearly modelled on New York, like Metropolis or Gotham City) of Swanwick's "The Dragons of Babel", or the city of Gene Wolfe's "Shadow of the Torturer"? How about the twin cities in Miéville's new novel "The City & the City", both of which exist in our world, both in the same place? The urban settings are hugely important in all of these, but are they "Urban Fantasy"?

And vampire novels have always been urban, haven't they? Stoker's Dracula comes to London, after all. Cities are their natural turf, a sort of stockyard for them.

I would say the Urban Fantasy takes place "today".
It takes place in our world, Something like Dreseden, or a fictionalized version of our world, Terry Brooks Word and the Void.
Miéville's Bas-Lag I dont consider Urban Fantasy.

Paranormal Fantasy....Paranormal means Ghosts and such. Not Elves, Goblins etc.
I just did a quick google of Paranormal Fantasy and most of the returns seem to me to be Urban Fantasy with a romatic twist. Twilight, Sookie Stackhouse etc.
There is even a goodreads link
http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/p...

I agree with Ken; these labels are getting silly.

Ron wrote: "The question that occurs to me is, Does 'Urban Fantasy' have strictly to do with cities in this world, or are fantasy cities the main settings? ..."

I think the term 'urban fantasy' was coined to apply to the growing numbers of books written with fantasy/paranormal elements, but taking place in the modern or near-modern world.
So you've got things like the Dresden Files-Jim Butcher, Anita Blake-Laurell K. Hamilton, Mercedes Thompson-Patricia Briggs, Women of the Otherworld-Kelley Armstrong, Victoria Nelson-Tanya Huff, Demon Hunter-Marjorie Liu, Jill Kismet-Lilith Saintcrow, etc.

So, the creation of an entire fantasy world excludes a novel from this category, even if the main setting is some kind of city.

There used to be a distinction between low fantasy and high fantasy, but it's been a few years since I've heard the term low fantasy now.

High fantasy = set in an entirely different world
Low fantasy = set in "our" world, with some added fantasy elements.

So e.g. most horror falls under low fantasy, as would urban fantasy and the other terms you're discussing here.

BTW, for the original poster who's writing a paper: check out the The Encyclopedia of Fantasy (eds. John Clute and John Grant), which is the sister volume to the "Encyclopedia of Science Fiction". It has great definitions of all these terms.

Stefan,
I have the book, but thanks for the advice. It's a good book. I wanted to see how current readers view the terms. I kept seeing them used interchangably as well as claims that Hamilton invented both UF and PF. Which is surprsing to me.

Can I ask people how they feel about L.K. Hamilton without it coming to namecalling?

I used to like her, don't like the later books. I also think her supporters are somewhat correct when they say people are offended or off put by her use of sex, but not correct in the way they think they are.

As for LK Hamilton, personally, I love the first 6 or 7 of the Anita Blake books - I stopped reading them when the plot started revolving around sex (having sex, thinking about having sex, etc.) When that seemed to dominate the book, she lost my interest. Not because I was offended or off put, I've read plenty of steamy explicit books. Frankly I just found it tedious and repetitive. Plus, I have so many other books I want to read, that unfortunately her books have been moved on my personal priority list to "not worth the time". (I also tried the first two or three books in her Merry Gentry series, but that one was even 'worse' from my point of view.)

So, I'm happy she's doing so well, and I'll reread the AB books I have, but I won't be reading any more of them.

Just my two cents = )

I was at my local SF bookstore and lo and behold they had copies of the latest issue of Locus and on the cover was this line
SPECIAL ISSUE: URBAN FANTASY

I didn't pick one up but if someone is a Locus reader let us know

Thanks Ken. I'll see if I can get a copy at my local bookstore.

Looks like that is the May 09 issue of Locus, here's info from the table of contents on the website (http://www.locusmag.com/Magazine/2009...)
The May 2009 issue of Locus Magazine is a special "Urban Fantasy" issue: featuring...

LOCUS LOOKS AT URBAN FANTASY
An Interview with Kim Harrison: Secret Identity / 6
An Interview with Patricia Briggs: Mercy and Faith / 30
An Interview with Marjorie Liu: Hopeless Romantic / 41

Urban Fantasy by Liza Groen Trombi / 32 In the Beginning... by Ginjer Buchanan / 33 Paranormal Thoughts by Charlaine Harris / 34 The Urban Fantasy Heroine by Kelley Armstrong / 34 Urban Fantasy by Carrie Vaughn / 34 Looking Beyond the Sexy Babe on the Cover – Which Subgenre Is This? by Maryelizabeth Hart / 35 It’s Not About the Monsters by Vicki Pettersson / 36 The Flight of the Bumblebee by Mike Carey / 36 Accidental Urban Fantasist by T.A. Pratt / 38 Our World, Only Better? by Diana Gill / 39 A Reader’s Guide: Recommendations by Carolyn Cushman / 40

Would love to hear from Locus readers...

Carolyn wrote: "Looks like that is the May 09 issue of Locus, here's info from the table of contents on the website (http://www.locusmag.com/Magazine/2009...)
The May 2009 issue of Locus Magazine is..."

I have an issue on order. I'll let you know when I get it. Thanks for responding about Blake. It's pretty much how I feel about hte series (except for the whole ardeur bit).

You're welcome! = )

Carolyn,

The Locus magazine was interesting. It seems that there isn't quite a clear defination. There were several blurbs by various authors. What was really intersting was watching the authors refer to the Anita Blake series but very carefully, and at times, only in a vague way if there was a negative remark. The Briggs article actually made me deicide to give her books another try. I think I read the first Mercy book at the wrong time. If you like Kim Harrison, that article was a bit disappointing. Apperently she had been writing under two different names and came "clean" about. Too many paragraphs were about the different clothes. Though if you like the Hollow series, there will be 9-12 Rachel books total.

Thanks for the information - that is interesting! LH is such a powerhouse in that genre now, they must be stepping really carefully to avoid angering her... Didn't know that about Kim H, disappointing, I'm not into the Hollow series, so no biggie. I like the Bitten series of hers... Whoops!

Isn't Bitten by Armstrong? There was a brief blurb from Armstrong. She commented how she does flaws and different types of strength. Carrie Vaughn also had some good comments.

From what I read, I wasn't disappointed in Kim Harrison at all. She was a romance writer under her real name, Dawn Cook, still had books in print & didn't want the two overlapping in numbers & such, so she did a new name & personality for her new line. Sounded like it grew out of control. Seemed reasonable to me. I like her Hollows series. She's done a great job with it.

Bitten is by Kelley Armstrong, part of her 'Women of the Otherworld' series. I really liked Dime Store Magic & Industrial Magic. Didn't care for "Bitten" & the others as much. My daughter likes them all, but didn't care for my favorites as much.

It was reasonable, but in the article it was one too many paragraphs about clothes. The fault lies more with the writer of the article for me, I guess.

I am a huge fan of Armstrong. I lovee all her books but Harrison is my gal. LOL I stalk the bookstores when I know her next is on the way out. LOL the gang at the Barnes and Noble I used to work at have takne to having a care package there when ever one of her books comes out

What makes Harrison good is that her characters are flawed. Not only that, but Rachel is flawed and when other characters point out mistakes, she listens. I was disappointed in the amount about clothes, but I liked the fact that Harrison seems to know when to end a series.

Wait she is ending the Series tell me it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!

It isn't so :) Harrison is planning on writing 12-13 books for the Hollows series.

Oh you guys scared me LOL

I hope she doesn't drag it out. I like the Hollows series, so I'd hate to see it go the way of the Anita Blake or Merry Gentry series.

According to the article, Harrison was only going to do 9, then she realized she had ideas for at least three more (so 12). She implies after that she might stop writing Rachel books. However, she did say that while she might no longer use Rachel, she would still set the books in the Hollows.

Do you remember where the article is, Chris? It would be interesting to read.

She has spent a lot of time & effort on the world. I can see where she could want to keep using it. There are a lot of other interesting characters in it, too. That might be very interesting.

It's in the in May 2009 issue of Locus. The part of the article that concerns the Hollows is on page 57. She makes several comments about how she has Rachel grow and change. She does have a YA book coming out to.

Ah, thanks. I remember now. I did skim the online version that had some excerpts. Missed the part about the YA book & don't see the other.
http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/...