Ask Susan Wittig Albert about A WILDER ROSE discussion

Here's a question for all of us. A blogger recently wrote that she found ROSE "depressing." Fair enough: both Laura and Rose faced some very hard times, and the country as a whole was going through massive economic, political, and climate challenges. “Depression” described the national state of mental health, as well as the nation’s economy--and I wanted readers to feel the impact of those dire years.

Not all books are about beautiful, happy people, of course—and true stories often include dark events. For example: I’m reading IN THE GARDEN OF BEASTS, by Erik Larson—truly dark. But it tells an important story that I need to know, so I'm staying with it, and learning.

As a reader, how do you respond to books that tell a shadowed story? Did you find ROSE "depressing"? What other biographical/historical fiction has struck you as "dark"? Did you stay with it or put it aside?

I have not yet read A WILDER ROSE but I look forward to doing so-- even knowing that the time period about which you write contains details of struggle and hard times.

I have recently learned that a mystery author I'm reading was convicted of murder in her youth. That is certainly a dark story and I'm so stunned by this that I am reading a story about that time in her life.

I read THUNDERSTRUCK by Erik Larson, and I find his writing riveting. I knew picking up the book that the story would be dark, but it also was balanced by the fascinating historical invention of wireless.

I seldom put aside a book. I stick with them through dark and light and am all the better for it.

Kathy, are you reading ANNE PERRY AND THE MURDER OF THE CENTURY? I know Anne professionally and remember what a shocker that story was when it first broke, about 10 years ago. I'll be interested to know what you think about Graham's book.

You're right: THUNDERSTRUCK is grisly--but balanced by the historical material. Larson's book ISAAC'S STORM is another good example.

When an author has a true story to tell, the dark has to be a part of it. When the dark is REALLY dark, there's a temptation to airbrush the truth to make it more acceptable to readers. Rose and Laura did that, where the Ingalls' pioneer story was concerned, but I think they did it primarily because they were writing for children. Rose's versions of her parents' pioneer lives, written for an adult magazine audience, are much more dark and realistic. That's why some Little House lovers don't like her work.

THE POISONWOOD BIBLE by Barbara Kingsolver was not a feel-good book, but I enjoyed it so much. It's on my list of all-time favorites and I thought it deserved a Pulitzer Prize.

I love books of all kinds and don't require them all to leave me feeling good at the conclusion.

That's a challenging book, Kylee. Kingsolver talks about it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/... (search Kingsolver for the link). I often wonder how authors of such difficult books manage to keep their own balance while they are writing.

I agree, Susan. Having written a book myself (non-fiction), I know how immersed you become in what you're doing. To write about something in that vein would require regular "re-entry" periods into your everyday life, I think.

Susan wrote: "Here's a question for all of us. A blogger recently wrote that she found ROSE "depressing." Fair enough: both Laura and Rose faced some very hard times, and the country as a whole was going through..."

A thought provoking question.. I did not find ROSE depressing but to me they were not a very happy family..My career was in Social Work, and I taught Psychology in college also, so I am very accustomed to " taking people's inventory"..

Books do not have to make me feel good but need to be very well written and have a purpose.I read mostly historical fiction or mysteries and very occasional true crime. I think what I am saying is that the story needs to make sense on a variety of levels, and I must learn something from it.

The Wilders as they were in actuality was distinctly different than the popular view, and I had to adjust that to reality. That may be difficult for some people and probably that was not comfortable for the blogger who found it depressing.

What I guess I took away from it is that pioneering families possibly were different than my perception of them which was food for thought. No one in my family of origin were pioneers in any sense of the word, except that they left their country of origin between 1640 and 1860 for external and known issues. Famine.Civil Wars.Every one of them remained in the Delaware Valley until this day.

Why did others continue to leave comfortable and established lives and uproot themselves and their loved ones again and again.I am still puzzling over that.

Susan,

Yes, I have just begun reading Graham's book and will let you know what I think. I picked up the first of Anne Perry's mysteries recently as I had not read her before. I'm on the third of her Charlotte and Thomas Pitt series and I like them so much.

While listening to Garrison Keillor's WRITER'S ALMANAC on podcast, I was utterly shocked to hear him say "Today is the birthday of murderer any mystery writer Anne Perry. . . " He went on to mention her first book (which I had just read) and so you can imagine my surprise.

I watched the movie HEAVENLY CREATURES which was a really good film about this story but I'm behind the times to come to this knowledge. I would imagine Anne Perry would prefer this part of her life to be at rest but I wonder how this informs her writing. Do you have any perspective on that?

I am looking forward to reading more of Erik Larson's books as they all look fascinating to me.

When I was doing the research for this book, I ran across a very unsettling book: Settlers' Children: Growing Up on the Great Plains, by Elizabeth Hampsten. What struck me most in the book were the stories of how hard the children had to work, how poor most of the settlers really were, and how those children were affected (as both Laura and Rose were) by their parents' poverty and unending physical labor. In a couple of letters to Rose, Laura talks about the Ingalls' poverty and how hard she had to work as a girl. This wasn't the "picture," she says, that she wanted to give her young readers--but it was the true story.

The pioneer life that we imagine is an idealized life (sunbonnets, butter churns, cozy evenings by a flickering fire). I can scarcely imagine what it must really have been like for Ma to keep house in that dugout beside Plum Creek--can you?

Kathy wrote: "Susan,

Yes, I have just begun reading Graham's book and will let you know what I think. I picked up the first of Anne Perry's mysteries recently as I had not read her before. I'm on the third of h..."

Kathy, I can just imagine your shock! I was floored when I first heard it, too. I don't have any insight into how Anne Perry feels about all this--but I'm pretty sure that her publisher doesn't mind the extra publicity.

Here's an article that may interest you: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/b... It's about the writing of an earlier Perry biography (now out of print, I believe).

People are not always as they are perceived, or presented, or self-presented. Getting at the truth behind the presentation can be difficult and painful.

Susan wrote: "Here's a question for all of us. A blogger recently wrote that she found ROSE "depressing." Fair enough: both Laura and Rose faced some very hard times, and the country as a whole was going through..."

Books that enlighten and are enjoyable, as Wilder Rose is, are not depressing, no matter what the subject - I love learning new things and experiencing some challenge when things hit me outside my comfort zone... and Wilder Rose did, because I loved the Little House books, and had to realign my thinking to encompass the reality. I appreciate that ability in an author! :)

Susan wrote: "When I was doing the research for this book, I ran across a very unsettling book: Settlers' Children: Growing Up on the Great Plains, by Elizabeth Hampsten. What struck me most in the book were the..."

I cannot imagine even being IN the dugout by Plum Creek..incredible..scary

Kathleen wrote: "Susan wrote: "When I was doing the research for this book, I ran across a very unsettling book: Settlers' Children: Growing Up on the Great Plains, by Elizabeth Hampsten. What struck me most in the..."

Kathleen, I think we read these books with the naive excitement of a child and we've carried that vision, almost unchanged, into our adult years. The surprise of the reality behind the stories can be difficult for some readers.

This doesn't mean that we love them less. But we can love them in an adult way, understanding the layers of reality behind their idealized surface--and understanding how and when and for whom they were created. For me, that just adds to my pleasure as a reader.

Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Books that enlighten and are enjoyable, as Wilder Rose is, are not depressing, no matter what the subject - I love learning new things and experiencing some challenge when things hit me outside my comfort zone... and Wilder Rose did, because I loved the Little House books, and had to realign my thinking to encompass the reality. I appreciate that ability in an author! :)"

I remember having to make the same conscious realignment when I understood the story behind ALICE IN WONDERLAND, Laura. It was a moment of "Oh, so that's how it was!" But the interesting thing about the Little House books is that the child-Laura and the author-Laura become merged in many readers' minds. If the reader strongly identified with the child-Laura and thought that author-Laura was simply a grownup version of her, the "realignment" you're talking about may be harder. It may come with a very sharp jolt.

My mood goes along with the main character. I recently read a very disturbing, but well written book by Laurie R. King called the Bones of Paris. It was fictional, yet educational. And, even though I winced a lot during the book, it's a book that I can honestly say I will never forget. If a good writer can leave you with the sense of emotion of the character, then they have done their job. Not all books are meant to leave us upbeat or happy. When did Ernest Hemmingway leave us feeling joyous after one of his books? Or, Poe, for that matter. They were bi-polar men who used this mental state in their writing and wrote brilliant stories. So, even though the Wilder Rose may be hard to read because of the era and the emotions of the characters, I feel it is important for us to get in touch with life as it was in other generations & locations.

Susan wrote: "Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Books that enlighten and are enjoyable, as Wilder Rose is, are not depressing, no matter what the subject - I love learning new things and experiencing some challenge when..."

Being a "Laura" made me really identify with the child Laura, but as an aspiring writer, I identified with the woman Laura, and, later, the woman Rose, who fascinated me!

Patti wrote: "My mood goes along with the main character. I recently read a very disturbing, but well written book by Laurie R. King called the Bones of Paris. It was fictional, yet educational. And, even though..."

I like the way you put this!
Laura

Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Susan wrote: "Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Being a "Laura" made me really identify with the child Laura, but as an aspiring writer, I identified with the woman Laura, and, later, the woman Rose, who fascinated me!"

Rose is truly a fascinating woman and deserves to be better known, Laura. As a writer, her professionalism is astonishing, especially considering the difficult conditions under which she worked. Everyone who knew her marveled at her writing ability--including finding ghostwriting work when her magazine markets dried up. She would be an excellent role model for any writer.

Patti wrote: "...I recently read a very disturbing, but well written book by Laurie R. King called the Bones of Paris. It was fictional, yet educational. And, even though I winced a lot during the book, it's a book that I can honestly say I will never forget.."

I think we often remember disturbing books better than comfortable books, Patti. Disturbing books force us to ask questions and often challenge the way we see the world. Those are the books I like best. When I finish one of those books, I've been changed by the reading experience. That's a powerful gift for a writer to give to a reader.

Susan wrote: "Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Susan wrote: "Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Being a "Laura" made me really identify with the child Laura, but as an aspiring writer, I identified with the woman Laura, and, la..."

Especially true of Rose as a role model - realizing that she was particularly innovative and forward-thinking for her times. She knew what she wanted, and went for it, despite her sometimes reluctant support and help to her mother's ambitions. (IMO!!!)

Readerwoman Laura wrote: "Especially true of Rose as a role model - realizing that she was particularly innovative and forward-thinking for her times. "

Exactly, Readerwoman--she was a pioneer, like her parents & grandparents. She definitely had Pa Ingalls' blood in her: she saw herself as a wanderer, an image that stayed with her from childhood until the end of her life.

Two books I love:
Zlata's Diary: A Child's Life in Wartime Sarajevo, Zlata Filipovic
Little Heathens: Hard Times and High Spirits on an Iowa Farm During the Great Depression, Mildred Armstrong Kalish

In both books, girls come of age during really hard times. They face adversity without letting it drag them down. That's inspiring, not depressing; not at all.

Gail wrote: "Two books I love:
Zlata's Diary: A Child's Life in Wartime Sarajevo, Zlata Filipovic
Little Heathens: Hard Times and High Spirits on an Iowa Farm During the Great Depression, Mildred Armstrong Kali..."

Little Heathens is wonderful, Gail--full of humor and fun, in spite of the challenges. Here's one I like, of that same era: A Nickel's Worth of Skim Milk: a Boy's View of the Great Depression, by Robert J. Hastings.

The LH books, too, kept the dark at bay, primarily because Laura/Rose used the child-Laura as a POV character. "Pioneer Girl," which Laura wrote for adult readers (and which is the source document for the Little House books), is not so light-hearted.

Susan wrote: "Gail wrote: "Two books I love:
Zlata's Diary: A Child's Life in Wartime Sarajevo, Zlata Filipovic
Little Heathens: Hard Times and High Spirits on an Iowa Farm During the Great Depression, Mildred A..."

A Nickel's Worth is one of my favorites - my mother and I shared it when it came out - I had a 5 year old and a 4 year old and was whining about how hard times were - this really opened my eyes !My mom was born in 1914 and lived it...

On the other side of the coin would be, say, Patricia Cornwall's books. I haven't read any of her works recently, but what I did read became increasingly dark....the story was so compelling, though. I admit that I stopped reading her books, because they made me feel like I was walking around in a black cloud. I like her work and hope to return to it, but with other stuff in my life going on, I really needed to switch to something lighter.

There is a difference for me between fiction and non fiction which are a bit dark or sad. If it is non fiction or even a fictional interpretation of a real person, like Rose and Laura,then it works for me. Real is real and is fine even when not cheerful and upbeat.

If it is not then I am pretty selective about which authors I read..not Patricia Cornwell or Anne Perry, although I have read both. My favorite authors are those that great character development but not too many high and low swings. I also like a unique setting, like a foreign country or another time period.

Susan's Sheridan novels and her Cottage Tales are examples. Englishness and the animals work for me in those, my favorites. My favorite novels operate on multiple levels but are not dreadfully dark. Stories about actual people are fine whatever happens. That is my preference.

Gail wrote: "On the other side of the coin would be, say, Patricia Cornwall's books. I haven't read any of her works recently, but what I did read became increasingly dark....the story was so compelling, though..."

And I once temporarily stopped reading Elizabeth George (one of my all-time favorite crime fiction writers) when she allowed me, as a reader, to grow close to a child--and then allowed the child to be killed. Too much even for me!

Kathleen wrote: "There is a difference for me between fiction and non fiction which are a bit dark or sad. If it is non fiction or even a fictional interpretation of a real person, like Rose and Laura,then it works for me. Real is real and is fine even when not cheerful and upbeat."

Kathleen, that's a very good distinction. I like narrative history and biographical fiction that is fact-based, and in those works, I'm fine with the dark. But I stay away from fiction that goes into the dark simply for the sake of the dark. That's just not my preference.

And I do have to confess to combining biographical fact-based fiction (the life of Beatrix Potter, between 1905-1913) with fantasy (animals who talk). So I can't say I always strictly stay with the facts. I enjoyed the talking animals, especially those badgers. :)

I couldn't agree more, Susan. (I'm reading "The Tale of Briar Bank" right now, in fact.) I have this conversation often, and lament the amount of darkness in current fiction. As an example, you only have to look at the fiction bestseller list to see that dark and dysfunctional are the topics of choice, apparently. As a history buff (and an editor), I understand being authentic to a time period and including truth in detail. However, I avoid the horror genre on purpose, and I'd rather not go there by accident. :-)

Jan wrote: "I couldn't agree more, Susan. (I'm reading "The Tale of Briar Bank" right now, in fact.) I have this conversation often, and lament the amount of darkness in current fiction. As an example, you onl..."

I worry that the prevalence of the dark and sensational skews the taste of readers, so that they find it difficult to appreciate slower-paced, character-driven fiction. And since publishers seem these days to follow the dollars, that means there will be less of the kinder/gentler fiction and more of the dark/slam-bang stuff.

This has been fun. Thank you, Susan, for inviting me, and for being so generous with your time and comments.

You're welcome, Gail. And thank you for participating!

Susan wrote: "Here's a question for all of us. A blogger recently wrote that she found ROSE "depressing." Fair enough: both Laura and Rose faced some very hard times, and the country as a whole was going through..."

I did find it interesting to read about America during the thirties. It was a very hard time around the world but Americans seemed to have an expectation by then that if they worked hard they would prosper. As in Susan Howatch's The Rich Are Different, ordinary people seemed to go mad investing money they needed to make purchases, even mortgages, in stocks instead. I can't understand it as I would rather pay and be debt free.
As for depressing time periods in historical fiction, has anyone read Connie Willis's book Doomsday Book? This deals with a time-travelling scholar called Kivrin who goes back to the thirteen hundreds to do historical research near Oxford. But something goes wrong, and she's stuck in the path of the Black Death and can't return... The book is excellent but I was warned not to read it if I was feeling down.

Clare, readers would be missing a great story if they skipped "Doomsday Book." However, it does deal with a very dark subject: the Black Death. Willis doesn't pull punches, either, so folks should be prepared for gory details. However, as Susan mentioned above, this isn't just iniquity or offense for the sake of it; it was a black time that overtook Europe and changed the course of history. And it's not all bleak. The heroine shows bravery and compassion, and there is some humor.

SUSAN wrote: "I worry that the prevalence of the dark and sensational skews the taste of readers, so that they find it difficult to appreciate slower-paced, character-driven fiction. And since publishers seem these days to follow the dollars, that means there will be less of the kinder/gentler fiction and more of the dark/slam-bang stuff."

I'm afraid all that you describe, Susan, is already well entrenched today. Perhaps the pendulum will swing back eventually but I'm a bit pessimistic about that. Hmm, but perhaps not. Ten years ago chic lit, so called, was all the rage. It is now passe in favor of vampires, zombies and other ghouls, so perhaps their day will come too.
Older readers don't seem to have gone there as much though. As long as there are lots of niche markets for different kinds of readers, I can be happy...hmm, more or less.
I can't tell you how sick I am of serial killers, fictional I mean!

Kay Kendall

I've just stopped reading serial killer books because they were getting more extreme. It seemed as though writers were trying to outdo one another in order to get noticed... more depraved, more psychopathic, more gorey. I was reading a lot of crime while I was writing crime, but it got too depressing.

Recently I've written SF and I got there via writing a romantic suspense book, both of which have crime in them, so the learning has not been wasted.

I agree that the young adult books suddenly became all about dark topics and with a fixation on undead. Maybe this was to encourage boys to read, but many protagonists are girls. The later Potter books and Twilight have a lot to answer for!
At the same time non-urban fantasy YA books are tackling tough topics, such as school bullying, alternative sexuality, drunken parents, suicidal thoughts or drug abuse. So maybe that would not have happened if the other YA books remained all sweetness and light.

Clare wrote: "I've just stopped reading serial killer books because they were getting more extreme. It seemed as though writers were trying to outdo one another in order to get noticed... more depraved, more psy..."

Authors are making a serious choice when they choose which route to take, Clare. It's actually a values choice. I know that vampires sell mysteries, & I'm as capable of writing vampire mysteries as the next one. But I won't go in that direction.

I do believe in using popular fiction to tackle difficult and dark social issues; I continue to do that in the China Bayles books. It's my way of taking a stand on the issues I care about.

Kay wrote: "SUSAN wrote: "As long as there are lots of niche markets for different kinds of readers, I can be happy...hmm, more or less."

Kay, one of the wonderful things about the new publishing technologies is that authors now have the ability to write books that appeal to niche markets. ROSE (as narrative nonfiction) was rejected by a number of publishers because they felt the market for the book was "too niche." But I was determined to get the book out there, and print-on-demand and ebook publishing made it possible for me to do that. It was a huge job to tackle, but I'm glad I did. I learned things about the book business I couldn't have learned any other way.

Susan, that's interesting. If one has the will and stamina, the new technologies offer lots of opportunities.
I keep thinking I know a fair amount about publishing, and then I come across someone who knows tons more than I do. Suspect I'm at best midway on a long, long road of learning.

Kay wrote: "I keep thinking I know a fair amount about publishing, and then I come across someone who knows tons more than I do. Suspect I'm at best midway on a long, long road of learning ..."

Kay, I agree! The thing is, though, that what you learn one day is obsolete the next. The techologies are stabilizing, but people's uses of them are expanding in hugely creative ways. It's a full-time job to stay on top of that, which doesn't leave much time for writing. From that point of view, ROSE has been a massive challenge for me.

Kay Kendall

I agree totally, Susan. In fact periodically I have dreams of being cloned so I could get more done in a day!

Susan wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Susan,

Yes, I have just begun reading Graham's book and will let you know what I think. I picked up the first of Anne Perry's mysteries recently as I had not read her before. I'm on ..."

Fascinating article; thank you for sharing that with me. I'm nearly finished with Graham's book. It is intensely detailed as to family histories and facts from the days leading up to the murder and the trial. It is a page-turner and a tragic tale.

It does appear that Anne Perry's publisher and Anne herself were able to turn the reveal about her past into publicity fodder. That said, neither Pauline Parker nor Juliet Hulme have had happy lives. Both have tried to immerse themselves in passions -- writing for Anne and horses for Pauline -- but it cannot be said they have been able to heal completely. Despite all the writing and supposition about why they committed the murder, no one can really say definitively and like any good storyteller, Anne seems to have adapted her original explanation to include a fear that Pauline would kill herself if she didn't go along with the murder, and that she (Anne) was taking medications that altered her grasp on reality. None of this was part of the trial.

I look forward to reading more of your reader's posts about ROSE and to reading it myself.