SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion

Everyone,

After a fairly lengthy discussion with the general membership of the group followed by a vote, it has been decided that Authors are welcome to promote their books in this section so long as they are active members of the group outside this section.

All that means is that if you actively participate in discussions about the monthly books or whatever other topics pop up, you will be considered an active member. (participate being the operative word as opposed to posting a couple non-sequiturs here and there)

The moderators will judge, based on your comment history in the group, whether you are in compliance with that rule and non-complying promotions will be removed.

Our goal is to be a tiny community of readers talking about, dissecting, rehashing, etc. our favorite genres and I think this is a good way forward.

Thank you for your time,

Geoffrey

Why do we want to be "tiny"?

Good Point. We don't necessarily want to be Tiny - I was thinking in terms of total humans when I wrote that but I think our real goal is to be an engaged community of readers ....

Geoffrey wrote: "Good Point. We don't necessarily want to be Tiny - I was thinking in terms of total humans when I wrote that but I think our real goal is to be an engaged community of readers ...."

Makes more sense. But "readers"? This is getting confusing. Probably because we're omitting information.

-The group is for: readers and writers.
-This particular "promotion" section is for author promotion (assuming the title is accurate).

Drilling down to this section:

Promotions are allowed only if you are engaged in the group as a whole (to stop "drive-by" posts).

Would this also be the place where authors should engage each other and/or their fans (if any)? or would another place be more appropriate? Perhaps a new section (if anyone is interested).

Also a place for SF/F authors to discuss the genre and the craft?

So far, I see most posts in this section (mine included) as advertising or spreading the news about available "deals". Do we want to go beyond that, stay with what we've got, or limit it (such as the prohibition against drive bys)? Or some combination thereof?

Sorry to be so anal. Just trying to get the feel of where you want to go so everyone can understand the rules and the opportunities. This could easily become more than it is, with the attendant explosion of "noise", both good and bad.

Perhaps an additional section for "Author discussions and Engagement" would be the way to go? Just throwing out the idea -- not upset if y'all decide it's dumb.

Well, I don't want to create an author ghetto ... as for the rest, I'm thinking that may be a different group all together here at goodreads or else on other sites like www.kboards.com where their writer's cafe is very active.

(disclaimer: I'm a kboards moderator, too)

I don't have a problem with active participants advertising their books. I don't want authors to be second class citizens. However, discussion on topics about other books should be the theme.

As an example an author might say that his/her book is similar to the Stainless Steel Rat. This should be part of the discussion not a "read my book" drive by.

My 2cents. Another 98 and I can get coffee at McD

The problem is -- as with pretty much any web forum these days -- the people who will game the system. On one extreme, you have businesses out there that actually pay people to write posts in web forums that will include links to sites those businesses want to promote. (Not saying that's happening here, but I have seen it in some on-line forums.) On the other hand, you have the SF&F fan who also happens to be a self-published author, possibly more as a hobby than a dedicated attempt at doing it for a living. They love to discuss books, have useful and interesting things to add to the conversation, and can't help at some point noticing how James Bolivar DiGriz is very similar to a character in one of their books.

Then we have all the gray areas in between, such as an author looking for discussions about topics similar to their books, so they can "innocently" drop in references to them. Now poor Geoffrey is shouldered with the virtually thankless task of trying to filter out the obvious self-promotion attempts from the genuine conversations. As an assistant moderator here, I'm more than willing to let him do that if he wants, but I don't have the time or energy for it. (As a moderator on two different software/web development forums, I'm reaching burnout stage anyway.)

Hmmmm. Sounds like I opened up a can of worms.

I'm a co-moderator for the Book-a-holics group and like Charles, wouldn't want the extra problem.

Sounds like the easiest thing would be to leave this particular thread as is: author promotions with the caveat that you have to be a "real" participant in other SF/F threads as well, not just this "advertising" thread. And if someone starts promoting in another thread (the most often abused one is the new members thread), then they get slapped down and have to sit in the corner until they learn the rules and get some experience in the regular threads.

So..., Justin's promotion of his book as a Member Chat "question"...repeated word for word across multiple groups with word for word responses pasted in...,is okay here? It isn't a spam or drive-by promotion?

I'm assuming since Geoffrey's was the third response, that that is indeed the case. Just asking for the sake of clarification.

I believe I made this point in one of my posts in the original poll on promotions..., that there would be attempts to circumvent the "rules". I'm not attacking anyone.., only asking why the issue was raised if a well-known marketing technique is all that's needed to circumvent the decision.

I'll shut up now. :}

No, it's not. And I usually notice that sort of thing but missed it here. This isn't my first time moderating a site with indie authors and their clever promotional ideas ... but I missed the creamy center of that post.

As for the part about word for word pasting too multiple groups, I hope you don't think I have the time or the interest to police each and every user's posts in here and follow them back to compare to their posts elsewhere ....

Hmmm. A balance here? If someone has a message ("Hey, I found a great somethingorother over here") and belongs to several groups where it would be of interest, it's easier to post the same message in those 2 or 3 groups than to craft a different one for each one.

The hard part, as Geoffrey said, is deciding what's "mass marketing" (which is kinda what posting here is anyway) vs "legitimate" communication.

I think we should be happy if we can limit it to this section of the group and keep it from leaking over to the other sections.

Al wrote: "Hmmm. A balance here? If someone has a message ("Hey, I found a great somethingorother over here") and belongs to several groups where it would be of interest, it's easier to post the same message ..."


I find that a lot of people are in the same groups, so seeing the same post 3 times (especially worded the same) gets a bit old. I find I am less likely to check it out.
Just saying.
:)

Geoffrey wrote: "No, it's not. And I usually notice that sort of thing but missed it here. This isn't my first time moderating a site with indie authors and their clever promotional ideas ... but I missed the cre..."

Geoffrey,
I just re-read my post and must admit it comes off a bit snarky. Please accept my apology for that. I appreciate moderating is an "act of love", not a full time job. I commend your efforts.

As Brenda pointed out, some of us are members of multiple groups and pick up on the promo blitzes. And that doesn't mean I'm attacking Justin.., I sympathize with his effort to promote. It is, unfortunately, something an author is forced to do if we want to be "found".

Again, I apologize and will--once more--shut up. :}

I will admit that Angus guy has me feeling a little prickly still ... so I apologize for snapping at you, E.D.

Aaahhh..., getting bent on Main Street. (See? I don't always post, but I do usually read.)

I'm feeling...all warm and fuzzy. :}

I am going to remove the promotional spots from this thread as that's not really it's intent ...

Geoffrey wrote: "I am going to remove the promotional spots from this thread as that's not really it's intent ..."

"Authors are welcome to promote their books in this section so long as they are active members of the group outside this section."

You kinda opened that door in your first post. I suggest you go back and edit it to say what you're trying to accomplish.

If you need help, yell and we'll hash it out behind the screen -- or in the open if you prefer (might be more instructive to others).

Is there another thread where we can put up our new releases now, or should we just start new ones in the folder?

.....as I was saying about flies and turdpiles. :}

A self-promotion thread would be the solution, wouldn't it? People are going to try to find ways to do it anyway (and why not), so if you create a thread to that effect at least it's clear - nobody is forcing people to read it.

In fact it might be a useful exercise - to see what people are doing and how they're doing it.

Hi Robert,
This is funny. There is a self-promotion folder, and this is a thread in it relaying the results of a poll of members regarding self-promotions. Specifically, where and when it's acceptable to self-promote.

I would say that it's ironic that the heading of the thread has drawn a few attempts to self-promote, but I won't because Micah will probably post and give me a thorough thrashing for misusing the term. :}

Oops - missed it. Must pay more attention in class. Proof that age doesn't necessarily make you more attentive. At least I wasn't the only one asking...

If you want a specific thread to promote without creating your own book-specific one, then by all means, create one. I just thought that promoting books on a thread discussing the results of a separate discussion about promotion was the wrong place to do it.

Whatever else you do it fine with me. I don't want to be the headmaster any more than I'm sure you want to be treated like errant schoolchildren. :-)

E.D. wrote: "I would say that it's ironic...but I won't because Micah will probably post and give me a thorough thrashing for misusing the term. :} "

Easy thar, cowboy, the pedantic police is watchin' y'all.

];P

:}

I particularly dislike the sneak promotion:

Well I would never do that in my book [book name].

Not sure what to think. Some groups recommend a particular thread where they'd prefer authors post - either an existing thread or new. I didn't see that for this group.

The only real rule in this group is you must be an active member to promote your book ....

I don't think I have ever promoted my book in a forum. I find it distasteful though I do pay attention to some forums to see if anyone mentions me lmao. I am a vain kind of guy. My ego needs its food.

Self Promotiion is exactly that. This particular forum is titled self promotion. If you don't want people posting their books, then change the name.

Really? You're going to join the group and tell us how to run it? That takes cojones.

Hello Geofrey, not cojones, just a little insight. You don't like something, then you change it. I guess a member of the group, we all have opinions. This mine. Sorry you don't like it. Regards Steve.

As a group, the membership decided that author's may promote their books within the group if they're active members in the group - hence the promotional area. Now, other authors, who are not otherwise active members in the group, do come in here and post their books as well - and we delete their posts.

The determination on who is and who is not an active member is a judgement call made by the moderators based on a person's activity. These are the parameters the group collectively decided upon. The rules are posted.

Beyond that, it's great to have opinions.

Sounds wonderful Geoffry. Thanks for letting us know. Regards Stephen E. Dew.

In cooking. On bread. No difference! :}

Hello,

I just posted my free ebook in the author part. I would like to be an active member in the future but right now life seems to get in the way of everything, hence it now being 10.48 pm and I've only just posted it to here. I hope this will be ok?

Regards,
Gary.

don't want to sound bad but I have been a member here for over a year and I have never mentioned my books or that I am an author I think it is bad form for the most part. then again I am mentioning it here. I cant say I am very active but the truth is I am more of a lurker. I check every post and sometimes say something but not often. The main reason is more for research into what fantasy and sci-fi readers are reading what they like and dislike. though if anyone ever says the name of one of my books I will be all over the post because it would be neat.

it's quite alright to recommend your books in order to get them read and collect valuable reviews...OK GARY?

Christine wrote: "it's quite alright to recommend your books in order to get them read and collect valuable reviews...OK GARY?"

I have to agree that dropping your book's name here is fine as long as it's not constant. Especially if you are comparing it to books people are discussing. Personnaly, I'd prefer to see people commenting on someone else's book. However...

BTW: I like how Gary posted. He didn't name or discuss his book. He only said he posted something on the Author group (where that belongs). And that it was free. I expect there's a link and description and what not over there. With only a short comment in this forum. Not bad.

I too tend to shadow several forums. I get some great ideas for future reading material. Of course, there is the info on what is trending in the SiFi/Fantasy writing world.

What I'd love to see is, people recommending books by indie/self published authors. You should say what you liked about it, and if possible, name a well known book that is similar in style. These authors struggle to get press of any type. You could just be the person to start the buzz that makes their book a SENSATION. Wouldn't that feel great.

I find it useful to read the first post of each thread, just to make sure I understand what the original poster intended.

Later on down, things start to distort.

Thomas wrote: What I'd love to see is, people recommending books by indie/self published authors. You should say what you liked about it, and if possible, name a well known book that is similar in style. These authors struggle to get press of any type. You could just be the person to start the buzz that makes their book a SENSATION. Wouldn't that feel great.

I would have to agree and would love to see a section there for indie authors...or do we have one. Personally my favorite all time indie author is P.S. Powers and his Young Ancients series ( or the first 5 in the series haven't had time to catch up on the others.) I cant think of any other book that is like it as honestly its unique or at least to me it is.

I read a lot, maybe too much. It can interfer with my writing.

The two best books I read last year were both indie and really small press.
In SciFi it was Saul Garnell's Freedom Club
In Fantasy it was Sabrina Flynn's A Thread in the Tangle

Both were interesting and well written. Sabrina's was a delightful tale in a style similar to the original Shanara series. Saul's made me think.

They beat out the other 109 books I read, which included both indie, self published, small press, and big corporate press.

I've looked at D.W.'s books. While not my cup of tea, I might read at least the first one, to get the flavor. If my mood changed, I might read it. Young Ancients is somewhere on my to read list.

Someone start my buzz. Thank you. :}

If you want to start a conversation about Indie books in general or specific indie books you enjoy, there is a Book Chat section that would be perfect for that sort of conversation. Please, by all means, start up a conversation.

I'm finding these last four posts exceedingly funny. And a good way to prove you didn't read the very thread you're posting in, and clearly don't respect the group rules (or, by extension, your potential readers). Good luck with that.

Agreed. Delicious irony here.

And the thing is, had they posted new threads, two of the three authors I would have left since they are actively posting elsewhere.

Everyone, This thread is here for any discussion of our promotional policy itself. Please do not post promotional items in this thread.

I'm lost in all this now. I'd like to post about my recent publications, but can't tell if that is acceptable or not. It shouldn't be so complex. This is the SciFi/Fantasy group after all. By making it so subjective as to whether someone meets all the requirements, you drive off potentially good books that readers might like to know about.

I published the second book of my epic fantasy series, The Crystal Legacy on Nov. 17th. Readers' Favorite just rated it 5-stars with a fantastic review and a seal. I'd like readers to be aware of that. Is that wrong to want to post it?

I just published the third book of the series, The Crown of Yensupov, the continuation of the quest. Again, I'd like for readers to be aware of it. Isn't that what this thread is about?

Well, if allowed, I'll add the Amazon Author Page URL that has the details of the books. If you want to kill the post, it's up to you. I'm not trying to get around your rules, I'm not sure what they are anymore.

https://www.amazon.com/author/ccraigc...

It's simple, really, if you're an active member of the group - which means that you participate in other conversations - then you may promote your book.

If, as many many authors do, you join the group, post about your book and go elsewhere, then I will delete your post. This was the consensus when the membership voted. If, you join in other conversations and participate in the group, then you are more than welcome to promote your books here.

We just don't want drive-by promotions, is all....

Oh, and don't promote in this thread. Create a new post in this folder for your book.

Geoffrey wrote: "It's simple, really, if you're an active member of the group - which means that you participate in other conversations - then you may promote your book.

If, as many many authors do, you join the g..."

Goeffrey, I find Goodreads very difficult to navigate around in anyway. I want to do things the right way, but often can't figure out how to do what where. I understand that you don't want fifty thousand posts screaming 'buy my book' but authors do want to make people aware of publications, awards, etc. especially when they self-publish. I get spamming of book ads by the dozens at the same time on FB, so I know what you are trying to avoid.

Now you say to "create a new post in this folder, but how does one do that? What is a 'folder,' vs 'comment,' 'message' and more segments above those. How does one create a new post? This is a 'comment' from a 'reply' that shows up as a message. I'm confused and I bet others are as well.

I'd like to see some discussions about the importance of credibility in Fantasy/SciFi, about dialog reflecting status such as the royal we usage, about when is the time right for splitting up stories in a series, things like that, but I've no idea how to go about where to post such things.

On the group's main page, as you scroll down the discussion board, each header grouping of posts is a folder. The one titled 'Author Self-Promotion' is the place where active member authors can post about their books.

To create a new post, you either go to the top of the discussion board and click 'New' on the right side of that bar, or you pick your folder, click on it to go into the full folder and click on 'new' to the right of that header.

All Goodreads groups work that same way, so once you have one group sorted out, you know how all of them function. I may be dating myself, but it functions like the old bulletin boards back in the BBS days ...