Children's Books discussion

It's a busy time of the year for many of us, and this group is in transition with a changing of the guard in moderators. So what a happy coincidence that our November Newbery winner is a relatively short picture book, Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night, by Joyce Sidman. It was an Honor book for 2011.

Well, it may be short, and it may be easy enough for younger audiences, but those of us who have read other books by Sidman know that it's worth spending time with. You may remember the group read of Swirl by Swirl: Spirals in Nature. Or you may remember me talking about my very favorite Sidman, Ubiquitous: Celebrating Nature's Survivors.

I hope you can all read this, or at least read something by Sidman. If you have children or students, I highly recommend buying at least one book by her.

I am especially grateful to the Newbery committee for choosing this. I see very little poetry, and very little science, on their lists. Historical fiction is important, but imo it doesn't need to be as dominant as it seems to be.

Have you enjoyed anything else by Sidman?

What was your reaction when you realized this book had won a Newbery?

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Well, it may be short, and it may be easy enough for younger audiences, but those of us who have read other books by Sidman know that it's worth spending time with. You may remember the group read of Swirl by Swirl: Spirals in Nature. Or you may remember me talking about my very favorite Sidman, Ubiquitous: Celebrating Nature's Survivors."

Yes! I've read both of those and loved them. I join in your hearty recommendation. I have "Dark Emperor" out from the library and am hoping to find time to read it soon. If it has to go back before I get to it, it will remain near the top of my TBR list. I love Sidman's work!

Thanks for getting this discussion going, Cheryl. I'm glad this book won't slip by unnoticed.

Yes, Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night is a wonderful book not to be missed. After being introduced to Swirl by Swirl: Spirals in Nature and Ubiquitous: Celebrating Nature's Survivors I have chosen her to be one of favorite authors of poetry. I think her other two books were chosen for the picture book group - don't really remember, but just glad that I now have several of her books on my shelf. I had already written a response for this book back in the prior days of our Newbery group, so won't bother to repeat myself. Just know that you will love all of her books, both the poems and the illustrations.

Has anyone had a chance to share this with a child, or - does anyone know their children or students well enough to guess what they'd think of it?

Do you think it would work better shared, or would (older) children prefer to read it independently, do you think?

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Has anyone had a chance to share this with a child, or - does anyone know their children or students well enough to guess what they'd think of it?

Do you think it would work better shared, or wo..."

I gave my copy of Swirl by Swirl: Spirals in Nature to my grandsons because they're at the age (3 and 5) of soaking up information. My daughter is also a teacher so I know she shares all the books I give her with her boys. This particular book was a perfect one for reading out loud and sharing the pictures.

This was actually an Honor book for 2011. The winner was actually Moon Over Manifest, which has been discussed by this group and is fairly typical of Newbery winners as it is historical fiction for upper elementary children.

We've also discussed (I'm pretty sure, and correct me if I'm wrong) the other Honor books: Turtle in Paradise, Heart of a Samurai, and One Crazy Summer. (The last one was discussed in the Fiction club, because we read it together before it won the Newbery Honor.) These, too, are all historical fiction.

Do you agree with the Newbery committee's choices for this year? Of the books you've read, which was your favorite? Which do you think is most worthy of being in homes and classrooms?

Oh Tricia, that's wonderful. And now that the boys own it, they can reread it as they grow up, and keep getting more out of it!

Since this is a picture-book, I investigated the Caldecott winners for 2011. The Winner was A Sick Day for Amos McGee, and the Honors went to Dave the Potter: Artist, Poet, Slave and Interrupting Chicken. Have any of you read any of those? I just can't imagine pictures more wonderful than those by Rick Allen for Sidman's book; I'll have to investigate those other books.

(I'll also have to investigate Rick Allen - the books on his page don't all look like the work of the same artist, and so I imagine there's more than one author/ illustrator with that name.)

I really liked The Dark Emperor and Swirl by Swirl. I LOVED Swirl by Swirl. I have shared Swirl by Swirl during library time but not The Dark Emperor.

I haven't yet read it nor have my Children, but we plan to. I did love Swirl by Swirl: Spirals in Nature and Ubiquitous: Celebrating Nature's Survivors so I suspect we will love this too.

Oh I'm so glad to hear that children are enjoying some of these books. Irene, do you have 'Song...' displayed in any manner that might help it circulate?

In my local library, fiction picture books are in child-size bins, easy to flip through, whereas non-fiction, like most of Sidman's works, is shelved in narrow aisles of tall vertical bookcases. I'm surprised anything from those shelves moves at all.

Everyone, where does your library shelve Dark Emperor?

New to this group and excited for this title!

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Since this is a picture-book, I investigated the Caldecott winners for 2011. The Winner was A Sick Day for Amos McGee, and the Honors went to Dave the Potter: Artist, Poet, Sl..."

[book:A Sick Day for Amos McGee is quite lovely. The artwork is pencil work and woodblock prints. The book is actually one I passed over many times (for whatever reason it didn't really jump out at me), but when I finally read it to the kids, I really enjoyed it. Not familiar with Dave the Potter: Artist, Poet, Slave. As for Interrupting Chicken, it is a great read-aloud: a very funny and clever "book-within-a-book". But I guess it surprises me a bit to be in the company of the other options?? I suppose it is because the artwork for the "stories within the story" change in media and style. I'll add my two cents after I see Rick Allen's work when I pick up Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night tomorrow at the library!

I like Sidman's books a lot. I also love that they're all illustrated with block prints, or with the scratch board art that has a similar look. Dark Emperor and Other Poems of the Night has some lovely poems, some good scientific information, and a nice over-all feel for how the night can be a time of wonder and life. I think the poem on mushrooms is my favorite. I will say that I think I like some of Sidman's other books better, but I think all of hers deserve as much attention as they can get.
I agree with Cheryl's comment on how hard it is to find by browsing any of the books shelved in the Dewey Decimal section. You kind of need to go looking for something specific to get there. But in my libraries all the books (fiction of non-fiction) are shelved spine-out unless they're pulled out into a special display. Sigh - So many good books, so hard to find them all and get them all into the hands of the kids who wold enjoy them!

I'll comment more later, but I finally read this over the weekend and LOVED it. I think I may like it even better than Swirl by Swirl or Ubiquitous.

Thank you Vanessa for your insights about the Caldecott winners for this year. Fortunately, it looks like the Picture-Book club in this group will be having Caldecott-themed months, so we'll be able to discuss them all together.

Oh, and before I forget, I want to give you-all a heads-up. I will be changing the subject title of this thread in the near future, so that it will be in keeping with every month's separate Newbery discussion. So don't get lost or think you're imagining things. :)

As a librarian, I can only defend the shelving decisions by saying most are for space considerations. Unfortunately, we are not able to put our libraries into Tardises (Dr. Who reference), so that we have more space on the inside than on the outside. Your best resource for finding good books for your kids is the Children's Librarian who works at your library.

Good point, of course. I'm glad my library has been able to make room for some display racks & kiosks, but I know even keeping a few books forward is difficult for smaller spaces. And I'm a strong believer in minimal culling (as you know, because I want access to the old Newbery Honor books ;), so I'm aware it's all a juggling act. Thank you for whatever you can do to promote all kinds of books!

I'm a latecomer to this discussion, hadn't realized that this months Newbery read was in fact a picture book, so I'm ordering it from the library just now. Especially since I'm recently becoming a fan of Joyce Sidman. But I can comment on her other titles.

I first came to Joyce Sidman by way of Beth Krommes (I was absolutely mesmerized with Krommes' scratchboard pictures in The House in the Night). So, in a first time I wasn't thinking so much about the words as I was about the illustrations. English is not my first language, so I don't have the same affinity with poetry as natives. But when I discovered Red Sings from Treetops: A Year in Colors, while I really fancied the illustrations, I also realized that there was something quite magical going on in the text. I've read it many times now, and every time the text is so fresh and new and otherwordly, I can't get enough of it. With my focus on picture books, I like to see Red Sings from Treetops as a concept book, but admittedly it takes that concept to a whole new level.

Now, as it happens, we've just been looking at Ubiquitous this last couple of weeks. I imagined it would interest my five year old when I saw the cover and the subtitle: Celebrating Nature's Survivors. And I was so right. When he picked up that book he began by poring over the marvelous endpapers. Since he loves mazes, I figured he was probably tracing the timeline with his finger. But he seemed fixed on that page spread for a whole five minutes. Then I hear him exclaim: "Awesome". Small silence, and then "AWE-SOME!!!" He brings the book over to me and says: "Will you look at that mommy! They drew a picture of all the life that happened, even a long, long time ago!" And he was still talking about just the endpapers for the book. But this is how "awesome" Ubiquitous has been for us. It has the simplicity to appeal to a five year old, the details to satisfy my science obsessed little boy and the lyricism to make reading about microbes and mollusks night after night conceivable for me. Of course it's a marriage of pictures and words each time, but now that I've explored so many books by Joyce Sidman with different collaborators, I'm developing profound respect for her text. I'll be excited to read that Newbery honor of hers. Sorry for being longwinded ...

And I felt the same as Vanessa about these 2011 Caldecott medal winners mentioned. Sick Day is a very low-key book yet it tugs at your heart in a not easily forgettable way. But then again I've loved everything illustrated by Erin Stead so far, especially And Then It's Spring and If You Want to See a Whale.

I enjoyed Interrupting Chicken, it's a fun book, but I was also a bit underwhelmed by it.

Fjóla wrote: "I'm a latecomer to this discussion, hadn't realized that this months Newbery read was in fact a picture book, so I'm ordering it from the library just now. Especially since I'm recently becoming a ..."

Your son's reaction to Ubiquitous: Celebrating Nature's Survivors is the best promotion for the book (and better and more descriptive than any review I could have written).

Thank you Gundula, for your kind words. Yes, it's great to witness these "A-ha!" moments. When I realized my kid had learned more from that one page, all by himself, than I could have tried to explain to him in two hours, I obviously got quite enthusiastic about Sidman's work. Not that it necessarily would have occurred to me to start talking to him about evolution or anything, but anyway ...

Fjóla wrote: "Thank you Gundula, for your kind words. Yes, it's great to witness these "A-ha!" moments. When I realized my kid had learned more from that one page, all by himself, than I could have tried to expl..."

I also think Sidman is probably a book that can be enjoyed by many different age groups.

By the way, you should check the list of older topic for the picture book club; I think you will find a number of books discussed that your son will find "awesome"

Indeed! I was under the impression that the bulk of the discussions of this group - which I discovered only recently - had been deleted, and I was somewhat disheartened by that. For instance, I seemed to remember there being a number of threads about European children's books, which I was looking forward to peruse.
So, I took your hint and just scanning through a single thread (Science books for a six year old) I got ideas for probably a months worth of reading. Excellent, thanks!

Yes, sadly all of the threads from the International Fiction and Regional Literature folders were deleted when our former mods left. It is a great loss (I'm guessing that is where your European books were) but, as Gundula pointed out, many other threads on specific themes do still exist and I hope you continue to find more great books there.

I applaud you for still carrying on after the group suffering such sabotage, it would have infuriated me to have my contributions dismissed like that. But, yes, it's still a great group with lots of valuable suggestions. Thanks for all the good work you're sharing with us!

You're not late or 'long-winded' at all. I really appreciate that you shared your reaction, and your son's, with us. I hope Sidman knows what an impact she's making on us, and is taking care of her health and energies so she can create lots more books for us!

Thank you, too, for sharing your reactions to the Caldecott winners for that year. I honestly didn't mean to jump ahead & interfere with Kathryn's plans for the Picture-Book club, but I, personally, find it interesting to analyze the choices of the committees.

Does anyone know if a book *could* win *both* the Caldecott and the Newbery, or if winning one disqualifies it from the other somehow?

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Thank you, too, for sharing your reactions to the Caldecott winners for that year. I honestly didn't mean to jump ahead & interfere with Kathryn's plans for the Picture-Book club, but I, personall..."

In answer to "if winning one disqualifies it from the other" I don't think so, because I believe that the two committees work completely independently of each other. Publishers send out books to members of the committees, and it is possible that they might send a copy of the same book to members of both committees, hoping to win either of the awards.
I am not completely sure about this, however. The best source for this answer would be someone who is serving on one of the committees this year.

My question is wether the Caldecott Award is just for the illustrations or wether it is for both the illustrations and the text (which would make more sense for me because in a good picture book, text and image should complement and compliment one another).

I know that there have been a select few picture books that have won the Newbery Award (like Millions of Cats), but I don't know wether any of these books also might have won the Caledcott.

I know there are detailed online lists showing past Newbery and Caledcott winners (and one could probably either print these out or download them and then see if there ever was any overlap).

When in doubt, I google :)
I found one book that won both A Visit to William Blake's Inn: Poems for Innocent and Experienced Travelers so it appears as if it's possible. Not sure if there are more then one but the ALA has the full run down www.ala.org

Thanks! Well then, I certainly look forward to the discussion about that double winner by Nancy Willard.

Btw, I did go to the trouble of tidying up & printing those 2 lists - and yet it never occurred to me to simply compare them. :blush:

I agree, Gundula, that a book that is all about the art and doesn't have a good text, as well, isn't (imo) the best candidate for a Caldecott. I will scan my list and see if there are any there I'm familiar with that I consider a fail, and we can discuss this more in the PBC when Kathryn does a Caldecott month.

I think we can all agree that Sidman's book has both strong art and strong text!

The Caldecott is awarded "to the artist of the most distinguished American picture book for children" implying to me that the book must be good over-all (including text), but that the pictures are what's really being awarded. I do know that when my kids' elementary school librarian runs a mock Caldecott program with the students every year, they are instructed to judge the illustrations not just on how much they happen to like them, but also on how well they work with and contribute to the book as a whole. I assume that's the way the adult judges of the real medal are trying to think about it, too.

That makes sense, Anne, thanks for the data and the theory!

I've been looking over the Dark Emperor now, and I have to say it's really fascinating. The illustrations are ravishing, this mix of the vigor of the block print and the subtleness of the gouache. I actually think the whole design of the book is both beautiful and clever, from the illustrations flowing out of the frames (the oaks roots, for instance) and juxtaposing with the little picture on the opposite page, to the formatting of the poems, to the choice of color palette, and the sunset/sunrise scenes opening and closing the book. And, I like how all the pages are tied together with the little newt/eft and the moon moving from left to right. I need to put in more effort to appreciate the prose, it takes repeated readings for me before the music comes out. I have a slight preference for the rhymes, and I like the concrete poem that's formatted like an owl. But, either way, it's a beautiful book to relish. I'd be hard pressed to say which book, between Dark Emperor or Ubiquitous I'd prefer. I thought the poems in Ubiquitous were more approachable for kids my son's age (5), they're more playful, while the Dark Emperor has a romantic, lyrical stride. And I thought Ubiquitous was pretty awesome in the way it put seemingly unrelated things into context. But I also really enjoyed the night theme of the Dark Emperor, and all the details on the night activity we're unaware of or that's hidden to us.

As for speculating whether Dark Emperor should have been a Caldecott contender, my impression is that Caldecott winners lately are typically geared towards the younger crowd, the Emperor appealing probably to an older audience. I don't know if that's a factor, and furthermore Joyce Sidman got a Caldecott Honor the year before Emperor with the very different Red Sings ...

The chapter book The Invention of Hugo Cabret won the Caldecott Award a couple of years ago or so. So I don't think that length of book or age of audience is a factor in awarding the Caldecott Award.

Beverly wrote: "The chapter book The Invention of Hugo Cabret won the Caldecott Award a couple of years ago or so. So I don't think that length of book or age of audience is a factor in awarding the..."

I was aware of that. However, all five awards granted since 2008 would make fine reads for 2-3 year olds. Which could perfectly be just a coincidence rather than trend, I don't know the intricacies of the Caldecott Award.

Interesting...
It'll be fun for us to speculate about patterns and preferences as we read together several years of winners.

Heh - I do empathize; I almost feel the same way, as if a book on display is somehow specially reserved. Maybe make a sign for the easel, or post-its for the book, that say 'please check me out' or something. :)

And this is one of those very special looking books. I'd be almost scared to bring it home if I had toddlers or pets.

Here is my review of Dark Emperor:


Joyce Sidman has a wonderful talent for combining poetry and prose to teach about scientific topics in an engaging and accessible way. The illustrations by Rick Allen complement and contribute to the text. This may be my favorite Sidman book so far, but perhaps that is because the subject matter interests me the most. Or perhaps because it directly relates to some of the core curriculum concepts I teach so I know I can use it in my classroom in addition to sharing it with my own children at home.

My favorite poem was "I am a Baby Porcupette" (I didn't know that's what baby porcupines are called.). I like the rhyming pattern and its rhythm...but I also like the image of the mother and baby nibbling leaves and grass ...and of course, how they deal with threats... "Raise my quills and pirouette." My 8 year old really liked "Love Poem of the Primrose Moth" and thought it very interesting that the moth looks just like the primrose flower. I also found "Ballad of the Wandering Eft" very interesting. I love the combination of poetry and facts. I have yet to read a book by Sidman that didn't impress me.

**One other comment that I didn't put in my review. When I first handed it to my 8 year old, she was not interested. The title, in particular, didn't sound to her like something she would enjoy....But once she started reading, she said, "This is really good." and she wanted to read several of the poems to me and to her sisters. She picked it up several times over the next few days and ended up really, really enjoying it.

Oh, that's so good to hear about your daughter's interest. Thank you for sharing!

I have to ask, though, why you didn't put that in your review? I love & value reviews of kids' books that speak of their own level of appreciation.

Really, I didn't put it in my review because I got interrupted so I just posted my review with what I had so far. It's such a busy time of year for me that I figured a partial review was better than no review. :)

fair enough! :)

Great discussion, I'm new here and am grateful for your thoughtful posts.

Welcome Beth. There's a lot to explore here; I hope you feel encouraged to contribute to some of our threads.