Time Travel discussion
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Depends on the friend, or rather their outlook.Many people have 'visions'- feelings & even images, certainly dreams, that are out of place.
Time Slip then becomes a matter of degree.
And some people are more open-minded & wouldn't judge.
Mod
Maybe not outwardly, but inwardly I think they'd be thinking you were possibly most likely crazy.
Oh hey, they know that already.Not a problem for me.
You take the good with the bad with your friends.
Mine sure do.
Mod
Not a problem for me.
You take the good with the bad with your friends.
Mine sure do."
People have to talk about something. ;)
Mod
And I would wonder why did the events that I knew that would happen did not happen.
And then I would realise that the events of the past that I lived will not happen because I blabbered about the bloody future which set a chain of events that would ensure those events wont happen.
And then I would realise what a bloody idiot I am!
I would definitely try to convince someone, maybe just to prove to myself I haven't lost my mind. But I would be cautious.Now the how. Hmmm... I probably would try to convince them is some humorous way. Maybe give them a one liner that would only make since after an immediate following event. A phone call from there mom, someone that is about to hit on them in the bar, a slushy in the face... Just off the top of my head.
Can't wait to get started!! It is waiting on my nightstand right now.
Mod
Now the how. Hmmm... I probably would try to convince them is some humor..."
Matt your comment reminds me of Ground Hog Day. The entire day over and over again he tries to convince her.
I am not sure how I would convince anyone. I am confident that those I truly love and trust would believe and try to help me in any way possible, in addition to having my sanity checked.
I suppose the whole time slip has to hinge on how much time is in question...if each time frame are close enough to have obvious affects on each other, than yeah I would manipulate things to make it unquestionable that I have time traveled. However if that was true it would be tempting to play the stock market and keep my mouth shut to get the most benefit...depending on my mood I suppose.
Mod
Bwah ha. There's a realistic answer!!!
I think I might make a secret blog about it and see if I could get some John Titor-esque fame going for myself ... under a bit of internet anonymity of course.
And you guys would be the only ones I might try to privately message to convince of my travels because you couldn't have me committed. :P
Amy 'might make a secret blog'Or you could write a book or two.
That's what I did.
Howard wrote: "Depends on the friend, or rather their outlook. Many people have 'visions'- feelings & even images, certainly dreams, that are out of place.Time Slip then becomes a matter of degree."
A friend noticed someone walking across the deck in front of his house one evening. He heard footsteps, caught a glimpse, got up and looked out the window, and saw nothing. It happened several more times and his dogs always reacted but were in no hurry to go outside. One time he and a guest heard footsteps then saw a man in a floppy hat and old plaid shirt walking across his horse pasture. Seemed odd, he said, that the guy was dressed like an 1849 California gold miner, like reenactors at Sutter's Mill Gold Discovery museum 15 minutes from his house. He didn't think it was one of them.
Weeks later he was traveling and needed me to take some newly acquired art work for safe keeping. No problem; I tucked some sculptures into my home office closet. Later, I was staring at the computer screen when I caught a quick glimpse of a youngish man in bandana, plaid shirt, and floppy hat, walk past my window. I was up and out the front door in ten seconds -- nobody there.
I wouldn't suggest we saw a ghostly, time traveling, forty-niner prospector (and art lover) still combing the hills and rivers for nuggets, but I wouldn't deny it either. We don't live where people regularly stroll past your window, certainly not his with livestock and big (friendly) dogs. I kind of liked the idea myself, but the stranger doesn't come to his old ranch house anymore, not since the remodel.
So if I experienced a time slip myself, or merely ran into a traveler coming our way, I might tell people I trust -- my wife would surely believe me -- but except for telling her, I'd be careful not to offer conclusions. I'd report what I'd seen and let them draw their own. Now, if they'd had similar experiences to share, or their own conclusions, all the better.
Mod
Which is an interesting concept: ghosts as time travelers. The only place I've seen this is
Thomas Jefferson, Rachel & Me. Funny that we don't categorize them as such usually.
Amy wrote: "And you guys would be the only ones I might try to privately message to convince of my travels because you couldn't have me committed. :P ..."You can certainly trust us, Amy, and we believe you. Now take two of these and try to relax. Some nice people are coming to help you.
Paul, beautifully expressed as always my friend & interesting in more ways than one; this is a prevalent human phenomenon regardless of Timeframe.For example, Schumann, a true genius who produced much in several fields, always heard voices & had visions both audio & visual to the day he died.
Although Amy can tell you that he died in an insane asylum.
She'd know this, of course, as she's read my 2nd Epic Fable.
Many people claim déjà vu as Time Slip but this interpretation must, by definition, slip backwards.
Preferring the Future, I instead experience déjà new, the feeling I've never been here before.
To each his own.
For shame on Amy, she should know better when referencing 'ghosts as time travelers'Always remember Dickens & bless us every one.
Mod
Always remember Dickens & bless us every one."
Well, there's another pretty near by, but that would be too big a spoiler for anyone who hadn't read it, so I'm keeping mum.
Mod
So anyhow, having read it a couple of times already ... I can remember the opening vividly enough to ask this to follow up our pre-reading question. Anyone who's read any of the book whatsoever won't find it spoilery:
READING QUESTION 1:
Would you be more likely to believe someone time traveled if they suddenly appeared (view spoiler) ... or would you assume that their assertions were their brain's way of covering up the true cause of the trauma -- a type of post-traumatic stress coping mechanism?
Amy questions her belief system:Amy, people are known to 'place their noses to the grindstone' or to 'work their tails off'
So it depends on how far they are willing to go to convince you.
Just saying.
Amy said: Would you be more likely to believe someone time traveled if they suddenly appeared (view spoiler) ... or would you assume that their assertions were their brain's way of covering up the true cause of the trauma -- a type of post-traumatic stress coping mechanism? "I suppose I'd go with "B" given those two choices, and immediately call 911 no matter the consequences to myself. ("You have the right to remain silent . . ." )
But what an opener by Ms.Butler! I'm impressed how it lays a certain level of tension over the story, no matter what else is going on. Skillful.
(I'm assuming one can't "spoil" the first sentence.)
Amy wrote: "It looks like a large number of our members have already read this book. I can't seem to find my dog-chewed, coffee-stained copy. Maybe I did the unthinkable and threw it away since it's not on the..."I'd go with Amy's choice B too unless they actually materialized before my eyes out of nothing ... if that happened, I'd be ready to believe nearly anything, I suspect.
I am about 1/3 of the way thru Kindred. Not swept away by it, which I like to have happen when I read. There's something I am not quite buying but it isn't the time travel element. That I can accept and enjoy. But the people are not coming to life for me. It all feels too made up, if not exactly contrived. And Kevin and Dana seem so accepting of what's happened to them -- I would think there'd be an animal panic in losing one's place in time or losing one's spouse in the wrong place and century. I see no sign of it or any struggle to control it.
Still, I keep turning the pages on my Kindle and I'm enjoying it because Butler is in command and I'll let her take me for the ride.
Just to chime in late on the whole time traveling ghost thing, I've seen a couple of things over the years that gave me pause. But the most amazing ghost story I've ever heard was from a friend who shared an old house in Wisconsin for a while in the1970s with another guy in the retail biz. (My friend is now the president of a major accessories line.)
They saw an old woman in the upstairs; my friend thought it was a crazy person who had wandered into the house. As real as could be.
Just met the guy he shared that house with -- he came east for my friend's wedding (2nd marriage) in NYC in October. Still lives in same town though he went to work for GM. Now retired. So I asked him all about the ghost story. He confirmed every word my friend had told me years ago and said people in town just accept the fact that the old lady is still seen on the staircase in that old house and in the upstairs on a regular basis.
I can't say I entirely believe all this but I enjoy thinking that something's going on that does not fit into our human perception of time and space. In a universe that ultimately cannot be explained or understood (as in ... what was here before the Big Bang), I buy the idea that reality as we know it doesn't cover all the bases.
Mod
Interesting observation. As I've read more time travel books from indie authors, I've been struck by how much more I've enjoyed some of their books than the "classics". There is so much more out there than the well- known authors. I'd certainly not put this book in my top10 time travel books. Maybe in my top 20. It's funny that this group has tons of people who want to vote for and/ or read time travel books they've heard of before rather than the often- superior books by unknowns.
Amy wrote: "It's funny that this group has tons of people who want to vote for and/ or read time travel books they've heard of before rather than the often- superior books by unknowns...."
OK, I confess I voted for a classic I'd already read this last round -- Peter Boody's "Thomas Jefferson, Rachel and Me." But I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying "Kindred." I like the protagonist and her husband (so far), the paranormal mode of Travel, and the sparse but hard-hitting history lesson. Like Peter, I question their early reactions, but considering panic and bewilderment, maybe it's credible enough. Since the start date is 1976, these poor people can't even web search their predicament or access Google maps. I have more questions, but I'm adding necessity and survival into the mix, so we'll see.
Amy wrote: "Peter wrote: "I am about 1/3 of the way thru Kindred. Not swept away by it, which I like to have happen when I read. There's something I am not quite buying but it isn't the time travel element.."..."
You're touching a nerve for me, Amy. When certain "right" people say a book or work of art is "great," then it IS great. That seems to have defined what becomes a classic and what doesn't. I suspect that luck, circumstances, connections and timing are a huge factor in defining success in art or literature (quality and talent being fairly common if not typical commodities). I think that's why delving into better indie titles yields a surprisingly large number of fine works — books that will be forgotten. I also wonder if today's culture, in which anyone can publish anything they want, has actually made it harder for good and great works to be noticed beyond a tiny audience. They are mere needles in a haystack.
Peter's nerve is touched:Peter, every great artist until modern times has had to have a patron, al la Michelangelo.
Even established artists often must wait to gain total control of their creations, al la Hitchcock.
You are, however, correct about the conditions in this Timeframe.
The internet & self-publishing are today's patrons, a limitless asset.
The possible audience, of course, is also limitless.
A wired & inter-connected haystack, you might say.
Mod
READING QUESTION 1:I think I would have to go with A. Especially in these circumstances.
And I agree with Paul's comment, "I'm impressed how it lays a certain level of tension over the story, no matter what else is going on. Skillful."
However my question is how did this make you feel as a reader, discovering this so early in the story. Me, honestly, a little disappointed. I guess I'm more a romantic than a realist and I could see how this could turn readers off from the story before it begins.
On the other hand, knowing this before I create any real connection to the character prepares me for it and I probably wouldn't be as disappointed as if this happened after I was invested in her.
Regardless I'm looking forward to how this plays out and after all it is time travel, she could go back and prevent it from happening.
Mod
As for Amy's question, I've always found the truth much more likely to come out of someone's mouth than delusional brain coverups of reality, so I think I would be likely to assume the truth more easily. I would definitely want more details than Kevin needed in this story however, and I think my response would have been different, especially if it was happening to someone that close to me.
Mod
Wow. I wish I could go back to that way of viewing what people tell me. Too many tall tales from students have me in serious doubt. I suppose, though, that if the person was normally trustworthy that it would be a different situation altogether. If the person was always telling tall tales, it would be like another cry of wolf. I think if my husband said something like this, I'd wonder if he weren't suffering from PTSD, but I would want to believe him (with a healthy amount of skepticism) since he's not prone to tell fantastical tales.
Mod
I nominated this book, but I have not been able to start reading it yet, so I am feeling a bit guilty. Hopefully will wrap up my other books by the weekend and can dig into this. Looks like people are generally enjoying it.
Hmmm. Does anyone else think that Rufe speaks in a way that is awfully late 20th century contemporary, as modern as Dana? Maybe Marylanders in 1819 did so .... I kinda doubt it though.
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About a quarter of the way in and I like it so far. As far as letting people know I time traveled, I'd write a novel based on my experience and pass it off as fiction. ;)
Alicja mentions she'd 'write a novel based on my experience and pass it off as fiction'Alicja, that's what I do.
Allegory & Metaphor, you see, it's all perspective.
Heh heh heh
Mod
Dana and Kevin are a mixed-race couple. Do you think this adds depth to the novel? How would the story have been different if both were white or both were African American?
READING QUESTION #3
What are your sentiments about Rufus?
Mod
I think Kevin being white was a great move to add tension and show how their responses and circumstances differed when exposed to the same reality. Made for a great comparison for the reader. The added pressure that Kevin may behave differently in the past was also a fear for Dana to overcome. I think both being black would have divided the story into black versus white too simply. Both being white would have detached them from the horror of slavery since Dana would not have experienced it directly. Having a sympathetic white character muddied the water and added complexity, though I also think the story could have been interesting from his perspective too, seeing his wife suffering that fate while he was left free.
#3
Rufus is a piece of work. I don't think he ever stops being a spoiled brat, personally. He gets away with too much based on the fact that Dana knew him as a child. That was a smart move by the author, drawing on those sympathies. You save a drowning kid, no matter how bratty. Once the story progresses, you start to wonder where to draw the line. It was interesting to see whether Dana would keep saving Rufus when her ancestors did not depend on her. Is it wrong to let someone die if you know they are going to keep harming others? The costs to the other slaves was still harsh if he died, so that was a great dilemma to stick her with.
I agree totally with Nathan that Rufus is a spoiled brat. Perfect. The problem for me is that aspect of his character has made it very hard for me to care about him. There does not seem to be a lot of depth there despite the potentially fascinating and extremely complex nature of his and Dana's circumstances.As for Kevin, he is certainly more likable but, again, he doesn't bring much in the way of action (I'm 80 percent thru) or movement of the story--so it's hard to take him seriously. He seems to function as a sort of sounding board for Dana.
This is a minority view, I know. Looking at the reviews on the book's Goodreads page, I see many readers have felt the characters were well developed and engaging. And cripes, I just read one that did not warn of a spoiler before giving away the final plot twist.
I'll still finish. I am curious about the way Butler put this book together.
Amy wrote: "READING QUESTION #2Dana and Kevin are a mixed-race couple. Do you think this adds depth to the novel? How would the story have been different if both were white or both were African American?"
Dana is a twentieth century woman living with her husband in Los Angeles of 1976. We know from the plot description that she is African American, but it takes a while to learn that her husband is white. I like that; it's real. Surely, if you've been fortunate enough to find and marry the right person, you know there are more important qualities to consider than racial sameness, and more topics of conversation than racial backgrounds. Unless, of course, you're suddenly thrust into a time when it's all about race.
The mixed race twentieth century marriage is in stark contrast to the nightmarish past. Dana and Kevin don’t dwell on race until it can’t be avoided, and then Kevin does what any loving spouse would do, black or white, try to protect his endangered wife as best he can, as limited as that might be. I like Kevin and the reminder of lost normalcy he brings to the insanity. I questioned both his and Dana’s acceptance of these bizarre circumstances a couple of times, but I think his character is consistent despite unthinkable difficulties. Even stranded in the past himself, he is fighting slavery, as many others were doing at that time. And he and Dana are never far from each other’s thoughts.
#2 - Writing Kevin as white allows us to see the contrast between then and now, the attitudes and mores. Kevin does a brave thing and follows his wife into the past and he's able to at least try and protect her. I think if they were both black, then we'd have a very different story on our hands, without as much discussion of race relations since it is Kevin and Dana who either have these discussions or as vehicles through which we can see them through our modern eyes.#3 - I think he may be a brat but at the same time I can see the struggle of the two eras within him. It may also be a struggle that some people have in our modern age as well. I've spent enough time in the deep south to have seen racism alive and well but I am sure there are people who have grown up with it and struggle to get passed it as adults. (I am also about a third of the way in so my thoughts about him may change).
I forgot to comment on Amy's question about whether or not race plays a role in Kevin's attitudes or behavior -- would it be different if he were black. I think Paul is right on when he notes that Kevin's and Dana's relationship seems race neutral: yes, he does what any good husband would do. But i wonder if the story would have been more powerful to have an outraged and sppalled man, black or white, seething over what his wife endures. Kevin doesnt seethe. But a black man, whose family history was shaped by the legacy of slavery, would be an odd duck indeed if he didn't rage over his wife 's ordeal.
I change my mind about Rufus, I've read a ton since my last comment and I'm not liking him as much anymore. I don't see how Dana can... It has the feel of the "I'm doing the best I can for you because I like you but not really, I just keep telling myself that because I'm a jackass and stupidly you believe me." Ugh... but I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this thing ends.
I started Kindred yesterday, as I am trying to catch up on the group reads I have missed in the past. I just finished An Extended Journey before this one. I am finding it very interesting to compare the experiences of a white family thrown beck in time to the time of slavery in America, to the experience of a black woman travelling back in time. although both are horrified by the society around them, Kindred makes the experience much more real to me.
Time Travel
Books mentioned in this topic
Thomas Jefferson, Rachel & Me (other topics)Kindred (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Harriet Tubman (other topics)Frederick Douglass (other topics)
Octavia E. Butler (other topics)
This month's reading selection is a classic time slip novel (the author calls it "fantasy" rather than sci-fi). Our protagonist, an African-American female from L.A. in 1976, accidentally travels back in time to early 19th century Maryland where slavery is still alive and well. While there, she meets some of her ancestors. Kindred was the author's most popularly sold book. Butler said of the novel, "I think people really need to think what it's like to have all of society arrayed against you." She succeeds in allowing her readers to "feel slavery" by "get[ting] across the kind of emotional and psychological stones that slavery threw at people." The reason that the author sets the book in Maryland during this time period is so they wouldn't encounter the Civil War, so that they would have a legitimate hope of escape, and so that the characters would be contemporaries of Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass who were enslaved there at that time.
THE AUTHOR
INTERVIEWS WITH OCTAVIA BUTLER CONCERNING KINDRED:
*http://www.scifidimensions.com/Jun04/...
*http://www.wab.org/if-all-of-rocheste...
BOOK CLUB READING PERIOD
November 15 - December 15, 2013
WHERE TO BUY
*Amazon Kindle: $8.10 -- http://www.amazon.com/Kindred-Octavia...
*Amazon Hardcover: 75¢-$18.02 -- http://www.amazon.com/Kindred-Octavia...
*Amazon Paperback: 75¢-$11.44 -- http://www.amazon.com/Kindred-Bluestr...
*Other: 75¢-$15 -- https://www.goodreads.com/work/compar...
*Audible Audiobook: $29.37 without membership -- http://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fant...
*Your Local Library: $0 -- http://www.worldcat.org/title/kindred... (substitute your zipcode for the last 5 numbers in the URL to find availability at libraries in your area)
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS
Pre-Reading Questions
1. If you experienced an accidental time slip and returned to your own time, what would you do to try to convince others that you had traveled in time? Or would you just keep your mouth shut about the whole experience?