Celtic Studies discussion

I love mythology, and I have to say that the Celts had some great myths. Does anyone have a favorite myth they would like to discuss?

Oh boy! I love this group. I minored in Celtic Studies in college, but it's been a while since I've discussed Celtic myth, so I may be a bit rusty. I'd have to say CuChulainn is pretty awesome, but I'll have to get back to you on my absolute favorite. Oh, I do love the Morrigan - I saw a raven last Samhain (Nov. 1) and I swore it was the Morrigan. Sorry if I seem a little overly-enthusiastic :)
-Jenna

Hi, I am new to this group too. I love Celtic myths and also write about them in my books. The Morrigan is also my favorite of the Irish Goddesses. My other favorite myths are about the Irish Fianna and I like to pattern my Celtic warriors after these fierce warrior/poets. A great book on some of these tales is Gods and Fighting Men.
Kelley

Cool. I'll have to check it out someday.
Jenna

I know this one isn't strictly Celtic (though I'm fairly certain it originated with the Celts), but I have to say the Arthurian legends are some of my favorites even if they aren't always true to Celtic mythology.

I like the original Welsh myths on King Arthur. The Christian monks changed some of the myths later to reflect Christianity like the Holy Grail, etc. I don't believe that was part of the original myth.
My favorite fiction books about Arthurian myth are Mary Stewart's series.

Hey Alex. The Arthurian tales are Celtic - they originated in Wales (and if you look in the Mabinogi with tales involving Culwych and Olwen, they are very Arthurian). And the tale of Tristan and Isolde might be the basis for the Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle. Plus, the grail stories are just overflowing with Celtic symbolism.
-Jenna
ps - Kelley, you might want to check out the tale "Lludd and Llefelys" - I believe it's in the Mabinogi, but it has a section that is nearly identical to Mary Stewart's Merlin series. I haven't read all of Stewart's series (for shame, I know) - but when Merlin talks about the reason the wall is crumbling; two dragons fighting; this is in that tale. One dragon represents the Saxons and the other, grr, can't remember. Must consult my notes. . .

Hi Alex. Mary Stewart probably used that as her basis for her fictional Arthur. I read Evangeline Walton's version of The Mabinogion, but I need to read the original version.
And yes, the Grail stories have Celtic symbolism in them, but some versions are clearly Christianized. I'm thinking of the later tales (I think they are French) that put King Arthur into a time period with grand castles when the tale should be set in the Dark Ages. Like that new show Merlin. While it is interesting and I am enjoying it, they have put the story into a later time period so it is not historically accurate.
I think you are thinking of King Vortigern as the other dragon ? Not sure. Haven't looked at any of that lately.
Have you heard the theories about the real King Arthur actually existing in Scotland? There is a sixth century warlord that I have based my latest trilogy on and his son or grandson is believed to be King Arthur. His name was Artur. I don't use any of that in my story though, but it is pretty interesting.

If you really think about it, all Celtic stories have been Christianized to some point, look at the Invasions tales; one cycle is supposed to be the grandchildren of Noah. The problem was that the Celts practiced oral tradition and by the time everything got written down, it was the Christian monks doing so. And the Grail story of 'Lanzelet' is French. But part of France is Celtic; Brittany :)

Yes, of course there are going to be changes when that's the case. I think that's what I love so much about the Celts--they are so mysterious that we will never know the truth.
I just look at things like the sword in the stone and try to interpret it. I think the sword represents the king and the stone represents the earth goddess who bestows sovereignty. The stone represents an early time like the Neolithic period or earlier and the blade represents the age of metal working. It's just my thoughts on it. Also, there are stories about an Irish/Scottish goddess called Cailleach who turned into stone in the summer. I had to research her for my latest trilogy. Ancient kings used to 'couple' with the land, usually a stone of some kind with a hole in it. That sounds barbaric to us now, but that's how people viewed things. It is all very interesting and I am enjoying these chats.

The latter part of your comment makes more Celtic sense. The main thought process we used in my Celtic Studies classes was the three functions: First Function - kings, druids etc. Second Function - warrior class and Third Function - artists, women and farmers (fertility).
Usually, the third function people did something they should not have done and 1st and 2nd had to come together and make all the functions balanced again. The sword is very symbolic (phallic of course) and the stone is most likely third function (of the earth).
But it also makes me recall four of the main figures of the "Caith Maige Tuired" - The Dagda, Nuadu, Lugh and Fal. There was the Cauldron of the Dagda - a cauldron where the dead soldiers were thrown and brought back to life (third function). The Sword of Nuadu (Nuadu was king and lost his hand, thus making it impossible for him to be king until a silver hand was fashioned for him). The Spear of Lugh - no one could escape it. And the Stone of Fal -I think the saying for this one had something to do with speaking truth.
Ugh, I really have to find my notes! Anyway, after taking so many Celtic courses, you start to look at EVERYTHING from the three functions point of view :)
Jenna

Thanks for sharing that. I will have to remember that next time I am reading something on Celtic mythology. I am familiar with the Tuatha de Danaans and their magical gifts. Those are my favorite myths. I read a pretty good fiction book on the Danaans called Fires in the Mist. I think it's on my book list here on Goodreads.
If you have any other things you learned, please share them. I am always eager to learn more.

Jenna wrote: "Hey Alex. The Arthurian tales are Celtic - they originated in Wales (and if you look in the Mabinogi with tales involving Culwych and Olwen, they are very Arthurian). And the tale of Tristan and ..."

It is the tale of Tristan and Isolde that makes me so certain the Arthurian ledgends originated with the Celts. The stories I grew up with were the highly Christianized versions. It wasn't until some of my friends took a class on the Arthurian ledgends that I learned about all the different (and some far more Celtic) versions.


I had heard that the "true" Arthur was a Scottish hero. I think the professor of the class my friends took adhered to that theory. I don't think they ever told me the reasons for this theory though.

Interesting. I think it is hard to say where Arthur truly hailed from. It's such a popular story that I think many of the different Celtic cultures adopted it and converted it to their own styles.

I am enchanted by Medbh in the Irish epic, Tain Bo Cuailnge.

Did ancient kings really couple with the land as in "a hole in a rock" or did they couple with a priestess/ representative of the land? I am a student of sacred sexuality, so I am more inclined to the latter explanation. ;)

Halee wrote: "I am enchanted by Medbh in the Irish epic, Tain Bo Cuailnge.

Did ancient kings really couple with the land as in "a hole in a rock" or did they couple with a priestess/ representative of the land..."

This is a good question and one that is hard to answer because I don't think there is proof for either. I have heard of both ways though, but I would go with the latter also. Can a man actually couple with a hole in a rock? It sounds quite painful and impossible to me.

One story I got from The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles says this: According to Gerald of Wales, writing in 12th century, the kings of Coutny Donegal coupled with a mare which was then killed and boiled. While his subjects ate its meat, he bathed in water and then dressed in white. He stood barefoot in a footprint carved out of rock or sat on a stone to be handed his rod of office. The author of this book isn't sure if Gerald had his facts straight or if someone told him lies, but he thinks apart from the bestiality, the ceremony sounds credible.

Well, I am interested in the stories of hieros gamos, regardless which culture or spiritual tradition. Whether the sex act ever took place or whether this was an intrapsychic journey is oft debated. However, there appears to be a long oral tradition of bragging about one's sexual exploits in Irish culture. For example one story says that Medbh never made love to one man without another waiting in his shadow. Another says she had 30 men a day or the one "real man."

Tales of Finn and Fianna.

Does anyone know a good book or website with a good collection of Celtic myths that's not overrun by King Arthur? I know the Arthurian legends are Celtic myths, too, but I want to read the lesser known stories. Everyone knows of King Arthur and Merlin.

How about the Mabinogion?

Try this http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/ some of the translations are a bit old but they're free.

Thank you.

You're welcome

Also try www.ucc.ie/CELT for original translations.

Lora O'Brien

And here's a list focused around Rathcroghan, home of Queen Medb, with a good mix of books in there ;)

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/4...

Lora O'Brien

I would like to invite everyone to take a look at www.celticguide.com. It is an entirely FREE, two-year-old Celtic e-mag, also available in print AT COST from Amazon. We've had authors from Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, the U.S., Canada, Portugal, Germany, and soon Australia and New Zealand. We've featured some world's experts and world's bests, and lots of great Celtic history, culture and stories. We make no money on this project, it is simply a team of people who come and go but add to the whole for a good read.

I love Celtic mythology. Sometimes I feel like the otherworld is just around the corner, on the other side of that stand of trees. And yes. I'll check out the celtic guide

Jenna wrote: " Oh boy! I love this group. I minored in Celtic Studies in college, but it's been a while since I've discussed Celtic myth, so I may be a bit rusty. I'd have to say CuChulainn is pretty awesom..."

Jenna wrote: " The latter part of your comment makes more Celtic sense. The main thought process we used in my Celtic Studies classes was the three functions: First Function - kings, druids etc. Second Funct..."

Did the raven have red eyes? And was there a girl named Meghan anywhere about?

Where can you find that story about Bres and the Bard, where Bres insults the Bard and the Bard retaliates to the point where Bres, shame faced, takes to his bed?

James wrote: "Jenna wrote: " Oh boy! I love this group. I minored in Celtic Studies in college, but it's been a while since I've discussed Celtic myth, so I may be a bit rusty. I'd have to say CuChulainn is..."

Hi Jenna. I'm glad I joined this group, too. Jim Connor

Jenna wrote: " The latter part of your comment makes more Celtic sense. The main thought process we used in my Celtic Studies classes was the three functions: First Function - kings, druids etc. Second Funct..."

What do you know about the Four Cities. They get a mention but not much more than that. I've been reading the Book of Invasions and I don't see much on the origins of the Tuatha De. Also, are the Tuatha De related to the Danaans of Homeric fame?