The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

The Fourteenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Fourteen - December 9th - December 15th
Part Four - 10. The World We Knew Is a Long Time Dead- "The Devil is Coming Down," 11. Over the Top - Give Them Some Steel," and "Search Your Soul" - pages 416 - 452

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on September 9th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Christopher and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Rick Atkinson

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction Thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Glossary - Part One - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Two - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

by Rick Atkinson

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Part Three

10. The World We Know Is a Long Time Dead

"The Devil is Come Down"

Bernard Montgomery was a master organizer and trainer and excelled at set battles and theatrics. He also was egocentric and petty; he disliked the Frech and had a low opinion of Eisenhower and Anderson. Montgomery took command in Egypt earlier and won battles at Alam Halfa and El Alamein. After those victories, the 8th Army was allegedly overconfident as swept into Tunis. The army was slow in pursuing Rommel.

Kesselring ordered the Mareth Line to be defended to the last. The Allies executed Pugilist Gallop to unseat the Germans there. It did not start well as the 8th Army had heavy casualties at the Horseshoe. It did not faze Monty as he wanted to outflank the Germans in Operation Supercharge II.

At Tebaga Gap from the Germans rear, the Allies attacked, and the Germans held out long enough for General Giovanni Messe to pull the Axis forces out of Mareth and Tebaga.

Part Four

11. Over The Top

"Give Them Some Steel"

Meanwhile, Anderson ordered the liberation of Gafsa, once again, in Operation WOP. It was to be a easier task for the Americans than trying to split the Axis army in half. Monty simply wanted the Americans out of the way.

Patton took his army forward on March 17, but the enemy already left Gafsa. Then they headed east, splitting up to take Maknassy and Mezzouna, and Allen moved passed El Guettar. Allen fought the Italians and kept pushing south-east.

Attacking along Highway 15 helped relieve some pressure off of Montgomery. Armin sent 3 armor divisions at Keddob Ridge to stop the American drive.

The Germans fall back, but regrouped. Another battle occurred along Highway 15 on the way to Gabes. This time, American gun and artillery fire won the day. Finally, Americans won a battle against a seasoned enemy.

"Search Your Soul"

General Ward took Sened Station and then moves into a empty Maknassy. However, he hesitated to take the hills east of Maknassy. It was a big mistake. About 80 experienced Germans held the high ground with machine guns and mortars. The Germans also had airplanes coming over.

After failed attempts, Patton personally ordered Ward to lead the charge himself. So, Ward took command, but they were stopped again. Patton was disappointed and word spread among command to relieve Ward. Patton told Bradley to do it, and he did. However, Ward would get a second chance at command before the war was done.

Montgomery is quite a character. What are your thoughts about one observer stating that after El Alamein, he won't risk his reputation.

What does the Battle of El Guettar show us about the effectiveness of the Americans, especially in the shadow of Kasserine?

Not really sure how we got from debacle at Kasserine Pass to pinning the Axis in the NE corner of Tunis. Sudden turn of fortunes is not explained.

So true, Phillip, the author doesn't go in-depth to explain this. However, there seems to be a growing competence in certain areas like artillery, then throw in new leadership like Patton, and what the author does talk about: better luck on the American side.

I find Ward and Patton's relationship interesting, I suppose how Patton sees his commanders. He projects this romanticism upon his commanders to fight and die. He wanted Ward to personally command the charge upon the heights near Maknassy, and he did, with little success.

Do you think this is romanticism and is it what the Americans need at this point?

Patton always seemed a little crazy with his glorification of death. I think it is his own death wish he projects on others.

At this point I think the average soldier just needed strong leadership to correct the cakewalk mentality that infested the troops at the start of the campaign and led to demoralization when it was not as easy as they thought. People generally rise to expectations or sink to the bottom depending on how they are led.

Well, Said, Phillip, Patton really seemed to have a romantic vision of death. He seemed to love glory (and glory came from winning).

I think you are also right that Patton did lift the morale of this army.

Thank you Bryan for keeping things going in my absence - you are doing a great job.

Thank-you, Bentley.

Bryan wrote: "So true, Phillip, the author doesn't go in-depth to explain this. However, there seems to be a growing competence in certain areas like artillery, then throw in new leadership like Patton, and wha..."

I agree with Bryan but have the thought that the declining assets of the Germans may have contributed to this consolidation.

Boy this is some reading - between Montgomery and Patton it is hard to wonder that there was any room left in North Africa after these swelled heads took up their space.

It seems interesting that Montgomery was intent on keeping his shining reputation and Patton to establish his during the time of these pages.

The concept of Ward leading a ground infantry attack reminded me of something I read in one of the Ambrose books about the



D-Day and following events where he mentioned that Lieutenants led soldiers up hills not Majors because 40 years cannot lead 19 year olds up a hill. (and I am closer to 70 than 40).

Page 450 (paperback) para 2 has Ward paraphrasing this "you're not going to let a 51 year old man run your tongue out"....

Of course then we have on page 450 para 6 Patton's self vision in so much in his remark about Ward "I think I have made a man of Ward."

A couple of other comments in general about reading this book that may be useful if we progress to the other Atkinson works.

I have been trying to use the "Historical Atlas of WW II" to follow maps and I found that the maps are few for this campaign.

Alexander Swanston

but I have found that photocopying the page maps at 130% of size gives me maps easier to follow while reading than just turning back.

I had hope for more after using a Civil War Atlas when reading Battle Cry of Freedom

James M. McPherson

I have also been using World War II Almanac



Which does not record all the details that Atkinson does but much of the major stuff including the March 24 leading by Ward personally of a night assault.

What is also interesting are the frequent reports in this volume of air attacks in support of the troops not carefully credited or identified by Atkinson I think

Thanks Vince. I think you are right about not giving credit for air support. It actually was happening by the end and we learn nothing about that. I missing piece.

Ward, whoa, you wonder if he was not the man for the job and/or he got mowed down by the bigger egos.

I still think about Montgomery and his reputation. Not good.

I kept flipping back to Atkinson's maps. They were okay, but could be better.

Good job on the citation, just a few revisions:

by Stephen E. Ambrose

by Paul M. Edwards (no photo)

Bryan wrote: "Thanks Vince. I think you are right about not giving credit for air support. It actually was happening by the end and we learn nothing about that. I missing piece.

Ward, whoa, you wonder if he ..."

Thanks Bryan

For the Almanac a fellow named Dickson is the man credited in the editiion I ahve with the same from - no Edwards - noticed that too.

For Ambrose I was not sure which book it came from D- Day or Citizen Soldier of another



Stephen E. Ambrose

Very good, thanks Vince.

I hope the almanac helped. I could of used one myself.

Yes Bryan - it will I assume be handy thru any WW II reading.

as I hope the Atlas will be but there are so many more encounters than the Civil War so my expectation of similar detail was not very smart.