Hard SF discussion

Hi, I'm Wendy. I feel only a tiny bit guilty for joining and messing up your membership number (which was 666 before I joined, and I found that pretty funny).

Thank you for changing the number. It's probably better for a hard SF group not to be going around displaying "666" on its page. :)

The person who was updating the group's Goodreads info has been busy with other things. In case you're interested, the group's December book of the month is Kim Stanley Robinson's 2312. We should be having a vote soon for the January book. I'm not sure if the vote will be posted on Goodreads. The vote will definitely be posted at the group's Yahoo area: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ha...

Hi, Tim, and welcome. There seems to be little action in this group, and posts are rare, but hopefully it will pick up soon.

I agree, I love Hard Scifi, but there seems to be no groups revolving around that particular kind... :(

Hard SF seems to have fallen on hard times lately, but I'll never give it up. It's almost the only genre that can give you grand ideas on a grand scale that can't be equaled by anything else you could possibly read.

Indeed, a good hard scifi book can inspire ideas and thoughts days after I finish it. It seems that most people aren't as interested in the concepts as they are the characters. I love character development as much as the next guy, but I read science fiction for more than just characters.

Welcome.
Would any of you like to recommend relatively recent (more or less) hard SF books that some of us might have overlooked?

Thanks,
David

Those of us who are Hard SF authors would probably recommend our own works as being extremely overlooked, but the only recent book I've read by another author who does a very capable job would be Mind's Eye. Although it isn't perfect (I gave it three stars), the story was compelling enough to keep me reading. You can find my review of that book here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I'd mention the Alistair Reynolds books such as Chasm City, Redemption Ark, Absolution Gap etc because he's utilising relatively recent ideas in the hard sciences ro make his stories work. There are no FTL ships, only generation ships and some mysteriously beautiful planets and characters.

There is also the 'Worlds' series by Niven and Lerner which takes us back to Laryy Nivens Ringworld/Known space series. These books are the prequel to Ringworld, with only a passing reference to the Kzin and the creation of a new race, the G'woth.

Even though it isn't strictly Hard SF, since it uses archaeology, the Priscilla Hutchins series by Jack McDevitt is good because it still applies scientific thought and reasoning in the stories. I've been busy reading mysteries the last few months so I'm not fully up to date on current Hard SF but agrees there isn't too much of it around right now.

David wrote: "Welcome.
Would any of you like to recommend relatively recent (more or less) hard SF books that some of us might have overlooked?

Thanks,
David"

I assume you've glommed onto Hugh Howey's "Wool" collection.

Anything by Bruce Davis should fit your tastes: (That Which is Human, Blanktown, Initial Profit, Glowgems for Profit, and Thieves Profit)

If you like military SF with a healthy dose of sex, check out John Bowers' Fighter Queen saga. Lawman stuff: his Nick Walker series. War and politics: his Starport series.

Sam White's "AGF: The Gathering" will be on sale tomorrow only (Wednesday) for 99 cent. It looks kinda like fantasy, but is actually hard SF.

I know I've read some other recent good stuff, but I can't think of it offhand. Most of my library is older books, especially Heinlein.

Have you tried Michael Flynn? I consider his Wreck of the River of Stars (which I quite enjoyed) to be hard SF. His Spiral Arm (January Dancer) series I recently finished (and loved it) but it's not as hard SF. Still might be worth a shot, it's enjoyable to read. The way he writes is at least as clever and entertaining as the stories themselves.

If you like dystopian SF, you might want to try "Children of Destruction" by Al Philipson. Unusual for a dystopian piece because the setting isn't a blasted heath or something you'd film in a desert.

I love hard Sci-Fi and speculative fiction. Esp. interested in A.I. and Alien/First Contact subjects. Stanislaw Lem's Solaris and Fiasco were good. Blindsight by peter watts was excellent. Aliens that are alien not people dressed in costumes ;)

Anyway... Hi all :D

"btw I posted this same bit on another group and there is probably some overlap. For that I apologize but... well the comment is still true :D"

Cheers all

I am an Australian, who grew up reading scifi from an early age. One of my first, favorite, books was HG Wells The Time Machine, which I guess at in its era was a hard scifi.

I have been moving countries a lot over the last fifteen years, and have finally settled down in Berlin. I have been learning German over the last few years and I have reached a stage where I can comfortably read hard scifi. So I thought I would kill two birds with one stone and catch-up on my hard scifi reading, while continuing to learn German.

Some of my favorite scifi authors are Greg Egan, Verner Vinge, Kim Stanley Robinson (esp. the Mars Trilogy), Stanislaw Lem, Neal Stephenson, Ian M. Banks, Richard Morgan.

As I don't want to re-read books in German I have already read, I am looking forward to getting some ideas from this group for new authors.

You might take a look at these 2 web page for info on hard SF authors:

Hard Sf writers A - L
http://hardsf.org/HSFWHd01.htm

Hard Sf writers M - Z
http://hardsf.org/HSFWHd02.htm

These pages may not be useful in identifying which authors will be more available in German. And I have no idea about that either.

@David: Thanks! Looks like a useful list indeed.

Germany is interesting. Despite a strong scientific/technical base, scifi is not very popular here. At my local library there is about 20 shelves devoted to crime novels and only half a shelf devoted to scifi (and more than half of this fantasy scifi). As far as I know there has never been a big name German scifi writer, at least writing in German. I'd love to know if there was.

Having said that the publisher Heyne does put out translations of all the main big name authors now days: so you can get good translations of Banks, Morgan, Baxter etc. And of course as Lem was a Polish/Soviet writer, it's easy to get German translations of his work.

I've actually been trying to find some good popular science books to read, but it's surprising how little is translated into German. I say this as there really is a large part of the population who never reads English, which implies that a large part of the population is really cut off from a certain part of global cultural discourse. Makes me wonder what it's like in France, Spain, let alone some of the smaller countries.

The website isfdb.org has some items tagged "on german sf". See a list of those items at:

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/tag.cgi?...

thanks. these links look interesting, but unfortunately I can't read the original material. I should look around a bit more though. I am mostly just working on assumptions based on what I've seen in bookstores and libraries.

Radiantflux wrote: "Despite a strong scientific/technical base, scifi is not very popular here. At my local library there is about 20 shelves devoted to crime novels and only half a shelf devoted to scifi (and more than half of this fantasy scifi)."
Google Perry Rhodan.
Thanks to thse guys, my middle school library had quite a bit of sci-fi back in the day.

Radiantflux wrote: "Makes me wonder what it's like in France, Spain, let alone some of the smaller countries.
As is well-known, France has an old SF tradition. There are a bunch of French authors and some Anglo authors such as PKD may have been at one point bigger in France than in their own countries.
Many of the smaller countries have quite a few English readers.

Outis: Thanks. I'd seen the Perry Rhodan books around and just dismissed them as mindless pulp trash (which my quick Google seems to confirm). I hadn't realized that Perry Rhodan wasn't actually a person, but a general name for a series.

That seems if anything to confirm that there isn't really any serious scifi writers working in Germany, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

It's not like people aren't reading in Germany. The newspapers have a list of the best ten crime novels for the MONTH! So there are like 120 best crime novels, mostly written by Germans a year, and while I have only looked at a few of these, the quality of writing can be very high indeed.

Also I don't mean to imply no one reads scifi here. There are translations of the main English writers, but you need to search a bit harder. My local bookstore might or might not have an Ian M Banks for sale, but will almost certainly have a Jo Nesbø crime novel.

I agree that France has a much stronger and older scifi tradition, but because I don't speak French I suspect I have only scratched the surface.

He's not strictly German , in meaning that he is not a German writer, but Roger Zelazny from the 70's and 80's is Pennsylvania Deutsch and a lot of his stories are more cultural and mythic in style. Alastair Reynolds was working in the Netherlands for along time so with luck some of his stuff may have been translated in to German. Try using google for Gollancz books they were European publisher and handled SF in the 70s and 80's as well

David wrote: "You might take a look at these 2 web page for info on hard SF authors:

Hard Sf writers A - L
http://hardsf.org/HSFWHd01.htm

Hard Sf writers M - Z
http://hardsf.org/HSFWHd02.htm

These pages may n..."

Thanks, David. This is a great list of 103 authors of hard science SF. I told my SF writers group (SFNovelist.com) about your list.

- Victory Crayne

It occurred to me that I know of one SF ("speculative fiction") site whose URL suggests it's based in Germany:

http://www.freesfonline.de/

I took another look. The site seems to only be in English. The site lists legally free SF (generally short fiction). I checked the site's advanced search page and found that language was NOT a selection option.

This seems consistent with your impressions of SF in Germany. However, you might try contacting the site owner and ask if he can suggest any German SF.

If my memory serves me right, science fiction was "invented" in the USA. That is the major reason why most SF novels available today are written in English.

I've noticed (my opinion) that most of the people in the world don't read many books, and mostly nonfiction at first. As they get more leisure time, they start to read fiction. And of course, science fiction is mostly read by those who have technical backgrounds.

Since most people don't have technical backgrounds or interest, I think (my opinion) they tend to gravitate toward reading fantasy. And most people confuse the difference between scifi and fantasy. Those of us who have more technical backgrounds (I have a bachelor's degree in physics and have worked in technical industries for about 40 years) can clearly see the difference.

- Victory Crayne, President, SFNovelist.com (a group of writers devoted to hard science SF)

The word "science fiction" may have been coined in the US. But SF itself certainly didn't orginate in the US!

I don't think a technical background has much to do with any of this. People with no technical education or profession can be passionate about this stuff, as evidenced by the popularity of topical non-fiction aimed at people with no such background.
There's also no shortage of people with solid scientific or technical credentials who use them to blur the line between speculation and BS.

Hmm, interesting comment. As I think back, Jules Verne wrote some science fiction waaaay back in the 1800s. So I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that, Outis.

As far as needing a technical background to enjoy reading SF, I did NOT say that was required. I said "most." But I've noticed that whenever I write the word "most" somebody will point out an exception and think they've disproved my statement. My statement still stands.

One of my greatest laments is that science education (actually STEM--Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) has been shortchanged in the US and maybe elsewhere. But I don't want to start a discussion "off topic" on public education.

Let's stick to SF.

I personally think one of the greatest challenges that writers of hard science SF face is how much futuristic technology to include in their stories. One of the major challenges we writers of hard science SF face is how far beyond the cutting edge to write about. If we write of some specific technology, then ten years later our writing will appear "dated." Even obsolete.

Human nature doesn't change much and stories are about people, not technology. So I personally think it is better to write stories of people undergoing an emotional change. Maybe the technology had something to do with that. Maybe not. The best stories seem (to me) to have a science fiction "novum." That is, the technology is important to the story. Without it, there can be no story.

I'm still wrestling with that concept and I'm not sure it's true. I remember reading David Weber's Honor Harrington series, not because of the technology, but because Weber painted such an interesting character in Honor.

Your thoughts?

- Victory Crayne, President, SFNovelist.com

Well I think you could argue that old socialist english HG Wells - time machines, genetic engineering, future utopian societies etc etc - also had a hand in starting the scifi bandwagon. :)

Also Mary Shelly did quite a good job.

There were three who are credited as being the fathers of SF: Hugo Gernsback (Gernsbacher), H. G. Wells, and Jules Verne. None of them were born in the United States, but Gernsback did emigrate to the U.S. and published the first SF magazine here.

Oh Mary Shelley and "Frankenstein." Yes, I forgot about that story. I remember when I was a little kid, I took my two-years younger brother to watch "Frankstein" at the movies. When the monster removed the cloth hiding his face, my brother got so scared hid his eyes and told me, "Tell me when it's over." So I had to watch the scariest part by myself! I suspect that book was definitely cutting edge in the 19th century.

And H.G. Wells's "Time Machine." I loved that story and the movie as well.

Does anyone have any other hard science SF books from the far past they'd recommend?

- Victory Crayne, President, SFNovelist.com

Wouldn't Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin A. Abbott count as a nice piece of early hard scifi?

I never read that one. Why would it qualify as early hard SF?

Victory wrote: "I never read that one. Why would it qualify as early hard SF?"

I think it's as Hard Scifi in the same way as Permutation City by Greg Egan.

Preface: I'm not trying to disprove anything.

Victory wrote: "Your thoughts?"
Hard SF can use technologies which are very far beyond the cutting edge. As long as the author is aiming for hardness and is able to keep their wishful thinking in check, the result is bound to be pretty hard. The audience is pretty generous I think. A lot of SF gets called hard even when the author isn't trying.

Emotions are fine. Technology is fine. Cold, abstract science, philosophy or math is fine. Anything goes as long as it's interesting.

One of the main points of hard SF as far as my tastes are concerned is to challenge beliefs such as "human nature".
People with a technical background may be at a disadvantage when it comes to dealing with the social impacts of technology. But disadvantages can be surmounted. Whatever his backgound his, Greg Egan for instance can be brilliant when dealing with both social and scientific issues.

I think there's different SF for different readers. Some people are very character-oriented, some more plot-oriented. There's been some "science fiction" which is essentially a guided tour of future tech - this lacks character and plot. So, perhaps, some readers are "tech-oriented". I tend to think literature needs characters (even if they are AI's or other non-humans). However, for my tastes, character development is more like seasoning on the food. It adds to the reading experience, but I don't want to be eating more seasoning than story. It's certainly not all the SF I read, but I especially appreciate SF I find thought-provoking. I think that SF has a special place in literature because it can explore future possibilities, risks, aspirations, implications and consequences. We can think before we jump into the future.

Regarding German SF. This Goodreads Hard SF group has an associated Facebook page which I'm told has discussions. There's supposed to be a guy there Peter / Peda who (the last I knew) lived in Germany (I think Bavaria). Perhaps, he could help you.

Regarding early SF:

There's a webpage of info on "Pre-20th Century" SF writers. A lot of the writers / fiction is speculative fiction which preceded true SF. Much is either social-commentary pre-SF or utopian SF. Some of you may be interested in that, and there is some actual SF in there.

http://hardsf.org/HSFWEa01.htm

Victory wrote: " ... most people confuse the difference between scifi and fantasy. Those of us who have more technical backgrounds (I have a bachelor's degree in physics and have worked in technical industries for about 40 years) can clearly see the difference. ..."

I agree with this point wholeheartedly. I probably will be relegated to the SF snob pile but I really and truly do not like that SF and "Fantasy" seem to be one big lump. Yes I do understand that Fiction by its nature Fantasy. I am referring to the use to describe the genre.
As a kid SF fueled my imagination for what might someday be based on science and technology rather than magical thinking. It appealed to my intellectual curiosity. I have enjoyed the occasional Fantasy (LOTR) but it is not what I look for.

I like fantasy but I agree: proper SF and fantasy are different things.
I guess the main reason people are confused is that famous authors and editors have long believed fantasy featuring spaceships ad such should be called SF and marketed as such. Some have even insisted SF should include fantasical elements because of idiosyncratic fixations.

Here's a blog post by a fantasy author who understands the difference:
http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/2012...
WJW wrote:"So here I had written what I considered to be an exemplary high fantasy, full of magic and mystery, but what did my readers see?
They saw science fiction."

Fantasy is different from science fiction. And I suspect that "hard science" SF is a subset of SF. But of course, it is possible to split differences on every category. I'm sure there are some folks who think alternate histories should be another subset of SF.
But when readers go to a physical bookstore, they look for the "Science Fiction and Fantasy" section. My problem with Amazon is they lump the two into one category. That makes it harder for authors of hard science SF to select an appropriate category.

- Victory Crayne, President, SFNovelist.com

Is Star Wars fantasy or science fiction?

Radiantflux wrote: "Is Star Wars fantasy or science fiction?"

I consider it borderline. "The Force," I believe, is a Fantasy element, but I heard a somewhat scientific explanation for it that I don't recall accurately, and that would make it Science Fiction. Maybe someone else could add more, or correct me if I'm wrong.

My take on it is that all scifi, except hard scifi, contains fantasy elements.

I have no problem calling Star Wars SF because that's also the acronym for space fantasy.

Victory wrote: "Oh Mary Shelley and "Frankenstein." Yes, I forgot about that story. I remember when I was a little kid, I took my two-years younger brother to watch "Frankstein" at the movies. When the monster rem..."

Side note: Mary Shelley was married to the poet. He and his buds were sitting around, opining that women couldn't write good stories. She took that as a challenge and the result was Frankenstein.

You asked for early examples of "hard" SF. Would E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series count? The "fancy" stuff (the lens itself) has at least a pseudo-scientific explanation.

David wrote: "I think there's different SF for different readers. Some people are very character-oriented, some more plot-oriented. There's been some "science fiction" which is essentially a guided tour of fut..."

I agree with you, David. In the world of literature, a "tech-oriented" story would be called a "milieu" story. I happen to enjoy writing character-oriented stories and must include enough technology to interest SF readers. The problem comes when we try to forecast the development of technology. Since so much new stuff happens so fast, the risk is of writing a technology that will soon become dated. Maybe that's why some SF writers love to place their stories far into the future.

Hi, i'm a newbie, in this group anyway.

Is this group still active. I see there's been little in the way of activity since June last year.
It's been awhile since i've read much Sci-fi, but i find i'm drifting back into it, while maintaining interest in other genre.
Two of my favorite sci-fi authors are Kim Stanley Robinson & Peter F. Hamilton. Also, quite like Ben Bova.
Picked these up today. , & . Not familiar with Gibson, but a quick look-see reminded me a little of Hamilton. Anyone familiar with Gibson?

re: activity
This GR group is apparently an appendage of a Yahoo! group which is more active... but since that group isn't world-readable, I have no idea what goes on there and no interest in making an account to find out.
I think that this group still serves a purpose, relatively inactive as it is. People do answer recommendation requests and the like. I have benefitted from the answers to my thread and the recent Mars thread has gotten many answers for instance so I would suggest creating a thread with a good title if you want recos or if you want to discuss a specific topic.
And if you have an interest in putting some effort into making this group more active, I would suggest contacting the group's "moderator" and/or starting a new thread.

Outis wrote: "re: activity
This GR group is apparently an appendage of a Yahoo! group which is more active... but since that group isn't world-readable, I have no idea what goes on there and no interest in makin..."

Thanks Outis.

Hard Sci-Fi seems to go in cycles, eight now more fantasy oriented SF is the rage. Thre is Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, Reynolds, Catharine Asaro. I like Peter F Hamilton, though technically he is more Space-Opera than actual hard SF. Sadly the S in SF sems to mean (right now) more speculative instead of science than anything else.

Steve wrote: "Hard Sci-Fi seems to go in cycles, eight now more fantasy oriented SF is the rage. Thre is Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, Reynolds, Catharine Asaro. I like Peter F Hamilton, though technically he is m..."

Never really been a fan of Science Fantasy (Michael Moorcock, et al) Steve, or fantasy generally for that matter. Dragons & dudes (& dudettes) wielding swords & slaying (whatever) is a total snooze-fest for me.
I really enjoyed the Dune series by Frank Herbert, at least until Chapter-house, where he totally seemed to lose the plot. As for his son & co picking up the 'franchise'-:(
Would really like some recommendations of good Hard sci-fi as I'm a little out of touch, not having really read much sci-fi in the last 20 years or so.