Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion

Jim of KY has stimulated my interest in horses. So I've started this topic for anyone who shares my interest.

I recently ordered and read Old Bones the Wonder Horse (1955) by Mildred Mastin Pace, which Jim of KY recommended as one of his childhood favorites. I have two questions to ask. See below.

PS-BTW, I LOVED the story!

Do horses lie down often? If so, do they sleep mostly standing or lying down? I hardly ever see photos of horses sleeping.

In Old Bones the Wonder Horse, there's a section which says that at times they added weight for Old Bones to carry when he raced. This was done for "handicap" reasons, a handicap being an advantage given to the other horses to equalize their chances of winning. This doesn't sound fair and it seems that it can be cruel to the horse carrying the extra weight. What's the thinking on this?

Young horses lay down more often & usually for longer than older horses, but none of them does so a lot. They typically sleep standing up with their knees locked, although they don't go into a deep sleep that way. Horses are too big to lay down for long. They'll get fluid build up in their heart & lungs. Also, their legs don't get proper circulation unless they're walking around. The frog of the hoof is a helper pump since they don't have any muscles in their lower legs.

Not every race is a handicap race. You have the reasoning down. Not everyone is thrilled with it, but there are a lot of different kinds of races so they can pick & choose some. Usually horses run in the best division they can because the pay off (purses) are better, so that evens them out some & weight can pick it up in others. It's like racing cars with cars that have sealed engines. Folks are testing skill & luck, not just who can afford the best equipment.

Thanks for your answers, Jim.

Do horses know when they've been lying down too long? Do they get up when it's best for them?

I've never told them it was time to get up. They take care of it themselves.

Oh. I was going to suggest an alarm clock. :)

INTERESTING INFO (FROM FUNTRIVIA) ABOUT HORSES:

QUESTION: What is it called when a rider makes a horse cross over its legs and move sideways?

-----Leg yielding
-----Change the rein
-----Turn on the forehand
-----Rein back

ANSWER: Leg yielding

***Turn on the forehand is when a horse changes direction by stepping its back legs round but keeping its front legs still.
***Change the rein is a change of direction.
***Rein back is when a rider makes the horse move backwards.

MY QUESTION: When a horse is being trained to do the above movements, is there any cruelty involved?

Joy, your question reminds me when I told a visiting young German man that my daughter had broken a horse herself he was aghast!

Cruelty can be involved in any training or not. Depends on who is doing it & how. I leg yield Chip all the time. If he doesn't move over, I'll tap him with the whip or occasionally whack him once when he's being a jerk. A whack with the whip is like a spank to a kid's bottom with pants on, though. It's getting his attention, doesn't really hurt. I rarely have to do it once I let him know I would & could.

Nina wrote: "Joy, your question reminds me when I told a visiting young German man that my daughter had broken a horse herself he was aghast!"

:) Nina, I assume that means "broken in" (as in trained). Am I right? Idioms can be troublesome in foreign languages. :)

Jim wrote: "Cruelty can be involved in any training or not. Depends on who is doing it & how. I leg yield Chip all the time. If he doesn't move over, I'll tap him with the whip or occasionally whack him once w..."

Jim, I figured that was how training worked. A little "spank" is OK. As you say, "a little tap" doesn't really hurt very much. The trouble is that there are people who ENJOY being cruel to animals and do more than give little taps. It breaks my heart to think about it.

Joy H. wrote: "Nina wrote: "Joy, your question reminds me when I told a visiting young German man that my daughter had broken a horse herself he was aghast!"

:) Nina, I assume that means "broken in" (as in train..."Yes, Joy breaking a horse means you are finally able to ride that animal.

Joy, while there are certainly sadists in all walks of life, most horses are treated comparatively well today. It's typically not a high paying job, so most people tend to like horses or they wouldn't do it. Also, abusing a horse generally doesn't work out well. Beat a horse an extra mile & it dies or breaks down. Or it might just flip out. You can't do anything with a horse that's terrified except get out of its way until it has calmed down.

In the higher paying, more visible arenas, such as Thoroughbred (TB) flat track racing, there tends to be more stories about abuse, but a lot of that is perception especially in this soft-hearted age. A TB race horse is a highly energized, aggressive animal with nerves strung tight as violin & all the sense of a retarded chicken. They generally weigh over a 1/2 ton & are armed with hard hooves & big teeth, so can be tough to control. They generally won't respect anyone who can't give as good as they get. We've had several & socializing them properly can be a chore. It's not all done with pats & hugs, although we give them often. Sometimes it takes a punch to the nose as they're diving in for a bite. Taken out of context or viewed in ignorance, proper discipline can look like abuse.

Jim wrote: "Joy, while there are certainly sadists in all walks of life, most horses are treated comparatively well today. ... Sometimes it takes a punch to the nose as they're diving in for a bite. Taken out of context or viewed in ignorance, proper discipline can look like abuse. "

Jim, I see what you mean.

Jim wrote: "... A TB race horse is a highly energized, aggressive animal with nerves strung tight as violin & all the sense of a retarded chicken. They generally weigh over a 1/2 ton & are armed with hard hooves & big teeth, so can be tough to control. They generally won't respect anyone who can't give as good as they get. We've had several & socializing them properly can be a chore. ..."

They are such beautiful animals! Here's a pic of one as he goes into a race. (I visited the Saratoga Racetrack in 2003 and took this picture.):
- CLICK ON THUMBNAIL.

Beautiful horse and great picture. Thanks for sharing.

Nina wrote: "Beautiful horse and great picture. Thanks for sharing."

Thanks, Nina. That trip to Saratoga was with the Red Hat group of ladies I belong to. If it weren't for that group, I wouldn't have seen so many new places, especially restaurants.

In fact, in 2013 I went to the Morgan Horse Farm in Vermont with the same Red Hat group. Here's the link to the Horse Farm:
http://www.uvm.edu/morgan/

I know I've mentioned it here in this group before. I had posted the following links to the pics of the horses at the webpage of the Morgan Horse Farm:
http://www.uvm.edu/morgan/?Page=media...
http://www.uvm.edu/morgan/?Page=media...
http://www.uvm.edu/morgan/?Page=media...
http://www.uvm.edu/morgan/?Page=media...

Those horses are gorgeous!

Today at FunTrivia they asked:
"Which famous horse's heart weighed an amazing 6 kilos?"

Answer: Phar Lap
[The name Phar Lap derives from the common Zhuang and Thai word for lightning.] ---WIKI

"The average heart of a horse weighs about 4 kilos."

How do they weigh a horse's heart?

PS-They explain at WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phar_Lap
Evidently they found this out after the horse died.

Heart size comes up with race horses often.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secreta...

...Swerczek also performed a necropsy on Sham, who died in 1993. Swerczek did weigh Sham's heart, and it was 18 pounds (8.2 kg). Based on Sham's measurement, and having necropsied both horses, he estimated Secretariat's heart probably weighed 22 pounds (10.0 kg), or about 2.5 times that of the average horse (8.5 pounds (3.9 kg)).

An extremely large heart is a trait that occasionally occurs in Thoroughbreds, hypothesized to be linked to a genetic condition, called the "x-factor", passed down in specific inheritance patterns. The x-factor can be traced to the historic racehorse Eclipse, who was necropsied after his death in 1789. Because Eclipse's heart appeared to be much larger than other horses, it was weighed, and found to be 14 pounds (6.4 kg), almost twice the normal weight. Eclipse is believed to have passed the trait on via his daughters, and pedigree research verified that Secretariat traces in his dam line to a daughter of Eclipse. Secretariat's success as a broodmare sire has been linked by some to this large heart theory. However, it has not been proven whether the x-factor exists, let alone increases athletic ability....

Thoroughbreds have been a closed registry since the 18th century, I think. That means they're closely related & well documented.

Jim wrote: "Heart size comes up with race horses often.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secreta...
...Swerczek also performed a necropsy on Sham, who died in 1993. Swerczek did weigh Sham's heart..."

Thanks, Jim. I had no idea about those facts about the size of horses' hearts. Very interesting!

Here's a cute photo of a horse and a boy:
https://www.goodreads.com/photo/group...

That is cute.

I just received this photo in an email. It says it's the biggest horse in the world, 1928. See link below.
https://www.goodreads.com/photo/group...

In the same email there was another interesting photo of the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer lion being photographed for their logo. See link below:
https://www.goodreads.com/photo/group...

I wonder if the photographers of the lion were scared. :)

Both photos are interesting. I can't believe that horse.

What a neck on that horse! thanks.

I wonder how long that big horse lived.

Here's something about the world's TALLEST horse, Big Jake.
"At 210.2 cm (82.75"), 11-year-old Belgian gelding Big Jake stands as the world's tallest horse."
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/n...

Video: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/n...

Good to know that horse is well taken care of in spite of his height and breadth.

Nina wrote: "Good to know that horse is well taken care of in spite of his height and breadth."

I agree, Nina.

A member of my FunTrivia team is a "equine massage therapist". She says she loves her job and the horses love it too! I asked her how she got that job and what it entails. Below is what she wrote:
==========================================
"I took a course to be certified to work on horses, using massage therapy. I help injured and older horses to get back on track, and I also have a program for healthy horses."

"Equine Massage therapy is wonderful for all horses and they absolutely love it. I never need a halter or rope to keep them standing still for the 2 hours I work on them because they love how it feels. It benefits all horses greatly by increasing blood flow, increasing range of motion, speeding up of the healing of injuries, and so much more! I basically massage horses head to tail and the whole body in between and it helps horses who are hurt, and reduces the chance of injuries in healthy horses."

"I hope that explains it! It's a really fun job, and there is no better reward than to help a horse who is hurting or to reward hard working horses. Once I worked on a horse who got hurt really bad by getting belly hung over a stall divider, and it had a lot of problems due to its injury from two years before and was not being ridden anymore. They had vets and chiropractors out to look at this horse and they recommended it be permantly retired because nothing was helping it to get better, and then the owners called me to give it a try. I worked on the horse 4 times and they were back to riding it two months after my first visit! That is why I absolutely love my job and what it does!"
======================================

Gee, I could use a massage therapist for myself! Too bad it's so expensive!

Today at FunTrivia I learned something brand new about something very old concerning horses.

THE QUESTION ASKED WHO WAS The English painter of animals, especially horses, such as "Whistlejacket".

The answer was George Stubbs.
SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle...

The origin of the name, Whistlejacket, is interesting. In Yorkshire, the local name for the treacle/gin drink was 'whistle-jacket'. When made with brandy instead of gin, the color of the drink would have resembled the color of this palomino stallion's coat.

It's a beautiful painting!

Thanks, Joy. That is very interesting. I like the name.

Interesting. I've seen his work & imitations of it a lot. They're big among some of the horse people I know. Some of it was great, but in others the horse heads looked too small & sometimes the legs looked too long to me. Mostly the standing ones. When he had action in them, the proportions were better.

This is the first time I've ever heard of him. Guess you've had lots more experience with this kind of thing.

I recognized the name, but probably couldn't have told it to you if you'd asked. Marg could. Part of the horsey world.