Shōgun discussion

Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... I don't think? Maybe I do? Either way, these two books blew me away and I'd like to find more in the general realm. Great characters, eye opening to new cultures or different eras or both. Would love some suggestions!

I'm the same - I love massive stories that completely capture me and take me away to some other place.

Have you tried any of the other James Clavell books? My parents had the entire Asian Saga, and some of them are utterly brilliant. I read Shōgun first, and was wary of reading the others because I had loved the first one so much, and wanted more of the same. They're set in different times and places within asia, so I wasn't sure if they'd give me what I wanted. Thankfully, I went ahead and read them all anyway!

The two that, to me, reached the heights of Shōgun were Tai-Pan and Noble House. A lot of people find Whirlwind harder to get into, but I enjoyed it a lot, despite the less epic story. Gai-Jin wasn't really up to the standard. The remaining book, King Rat, is the odd one out of the series in that it's not an epic story - it's a gritty and realistic representation of life in Changi Prison, Singapore as a POW in WWII, but is definitely worth a read.

Aside from Clavell, others of my personal favourite novels/series that fit the epic bill are Dune, Liveship Traders, Mistborn and His Dark Materials.

You'll have probably heard of Dune, since it's not far from being the best science fiction book ever written. Imo it should be required reading.

Liveship Traders (Ship of Magic, The Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny) is the second trilogy in the Realm of the Elderlings world by Robin Hobb. I singled this trilogy out (despite loving the other ones too) because it's astoundingly good. Some fans of the other books in the series dislike this trilogy because it's more complicated, and the characters are too complex for them to understand, but that's precisely what makes it amazing in my opinion. They definitely hit the same spot as Shōgun does.

Mistborn (Mistborn: The Final Empire, The Well of Ascension, The Hero of Ages) by Brandon Sanderson is another fantasy trilogy, and I can't recommend it enough. It's a truly epic story, flawlessly executed, in a compelling world with memorable characters that make you care for the story.

His Dark Materials (The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, The Amber Spyglass) is a hugely popular fantasy/sci-fi trilogy by Phillip Pullman, and again is too good to be described - it's been compared as an achievement to Lord of the Rings. It's very controversial because of the depiction of the catholic church, but even if you're christian you should be able to enjoy it!

RaptorSaur wrote: "I'm the same - I love massive stories that completely capture me and take me away to some other place.

Have you tried any of the other James Clavell books? My parents had the entire Asian Saga, an..."

Thank you so much for the reply. I will definitely check out the Clavell books. Do you have any other recommendations for authors or titles that are more in the realm of historical fiction rather than fantasy to share?

Steve wrote: "RaptorSaur wrote: "I'm the same - I love massive stories that completely capture me and take me away to some other place.

Have you tried any of the other James Clavell books? My parents had the en..."

You're welcome!

Sadly, no. I haven't really read a lot of historical fiction to be honest - not because I dislike it, but because the few I read (probably 12-15 books) were nowhere near as good as Shōgun, Tai-Pan and Noble House. Quality sci-fi and fantasy is much easier to come across in my experience.

Don't dismiss the series I suggested out of hand - I wouldn't recommend anything if it wasn't exceptional, and they really do share a lot of the qualities of the Clavell books :)

Steve wrote: "Do you have any other recommendations for authors or titles that are more in the realm of historical fiction rather than fantasy to share?"

Try Alexandre Dumas. The 1st couple of musketeer books are top stuff, palace plots and betrayal, stabby fights etc. Not the kids stuff that most modern film versions portray (the last few books are a bit more work). Also his The Count of Monte Cristo is a huge classic of revenge. He's done loads more.
War and Peace is also a chunker that is epic and worth the effort if you're not scared of the size.

RaptorSaur wrote: "Steve wrote: "RaptorSaur wrote: "I'm the same - I love massive stories that completely capture me and take me away to some other place.

Have you tried any of the other James Clavell books? My pare..."

Not dismissed at all! Just looking for something specific at the moment. I've added all of your series to my "to read" list =)

Martin wrote: "If you enjoyed Shogun, and after books in a similar vein, then I highly recommend Lian Hearn's "Tales of The Otori" series.

There are five books (four and a prequel). Start with "Across The Nighti..."

I am too! Thanks, I'll check them out!

Steve wrote: "RaptorSaur wrote: "Steve wrote: "RaptorSaur wrote: "I'm the same - I love massive stories that completely capture me and take me away to some other place.

Have you tried any of the other James Cla..."

Thought that might be the case - let me know if you find anything that fits the bill, I might take a look in the future! :)

There was a book I read about 20 years ago that reminded me very strongly of Shogun, but I cannot for the life of me find it again.

It was something like "Warlord" or "The Warlord." It took place in China around the early 1900s. The main character reminded me a lot of Toronaga.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: The Warlord by Malcolm Bosse.

Bill wrote: "There was a book I read about 20 years ago that reminded me very strongly of Shogun, but I cannot for the life of me find it again.

It was something like "Warlord" or "The Warlord." It took place ..."

Nice! Sounds great! I'll check it out.

Alexandre Dumas is a good suggestion.

For more Japanese stuff: Musashi. Check that one out.

I,Claudius is very good.

A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century is amazing non fiction.

The Name of the Rose is really well written thought out historical fiction.

I second the Claudius books, and by extension any of Graves Hx fiction.

Is it Hx fiction in general or are you more interested in certain periods/cultures? Or is it mainly big old chunkers you're looking for?

A real hidden gem is The Fifth Sacred Thing by Starhawk.

I highly endorse Martin's recommendation of Tales of the Otori. He's also right about reading them in the order they were published.

Along that same vein, Under Heaven and River of Stars by Guy Gavriel Kay are standouts. These two books are set in the Song and Tang dynasties in China. Although they're labeled fantasy, I prefer to think of them as historical fiction with a fantastical element because of Kay's meticulous research. He is also a poet, and the beauty of the language of these stories is part of the attraction. I will say that after reading these books, it helped me to understand better what I was seeing when I had a chance to visit Xian, China a couple of years ago.

If you like a more realistic approach, I also have several recommendations:

The Sunne in Splendour by Sharon Kay Penman is one of the best historical fiction novels I have ever read, right up there with Shogun. It's the story of Richard III. You may wind up with a very different opinion of him than that of Shakespeare, who was, after all, writing to please the victors in that particular episode.

Pillars of the Earth and World Without End by Ken Follett, about cathedral building in medieval England.

Also about cathedral building, but translated from the Spanish is Ildefonso Falcones' Cathedral of the Sea set in medieval Barcelona.

Finally, one of my favorites set in India, M.M. Kaye's The Far Pavilions.

I hope you find something in this list intriguing. I know I loved all of these books!

It also struck me as I was writing this how often the name Kay(e) popped up in relation to these recommendations. And they say there's no such thing as coincidence!

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "I second the Claudius books, and by extension any of Graves Hx fiction.

Is it Hx fiction in general or are you more interested in certain periods/cultures? Or is it mainly big old chunkers you're ..."

Just historical fiction in general...

Peggy wrote: "I highly endorse Martin's recommendation of Tales of the Otori. He's also right about reading them in the order they were published.

Along that same vein, Under Heaven and River of Stars by Guy G..."

Thank you, Peggy! This thread will serve me well for years!

Oh my my I do! How about Herman Wouk - starting with War and Rememberance (building up to WWII), W.E.B.Griffen - Brotherhood of war series (starting at the end of WWII, Diana Gabaldon - Outlander (Sci-Fi, but with historical situations, etc.), Ken Follet - Pillars of the Earth (12th century), and John Jakes - The Bastard (beginning 1760's in France). These are not big books in themselves, but they are series that will keep you happily entertained for awhile! Please look at my Historical Fiction for other ideas.

If you like historical fiction, anything by James Michener or by Edward Rutherfurd are treats not to be missed!

Another great one is Leon Uris, specially his books "Exodus" and "QB VII".

6138, I agree. I tend to get carried away by my recommendations so I tried to limit it a little ;) Uris's "Exodus" flows GREAT with Herman Wouk's "The Hope" and "The Glory" and James Michener's "The Source". I also love "London" by Rutherford.

Valerie wrote: "6138, I agree. I tend to get carried away by my recommendations so I tried to limit it a little ;) Uris's "Exodus" flows GREAT with Herman Wouk's "The Hope" and "The Glory" and James Michener's "..."

Agree with you Valerie, "London" was the first thing I read by Rutherfurd and I was immediately hooked... "New York" was also very good. Now I'm reading "Paris", it is not his best, but so far so good.

I'm going to go outside the box a bit, and recommend some alternate history.

"Alternate history" novels are a sort of "what if?" look at certain events in the past, and how they would have affected us as time went on.

First, I'll recommend The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson. It supposed a world where the Black Plague wiped out 99.9% of Europe, so exploration and such were dominated by Muslims and the Chinese. It's told through the eyes of 3 spirits who are reincarnated into several eras. It's an amazing book, and I recommend it to just about everyone who's a history buff.

Second, I'll recommend Harry Turtledove's Timeline-191 series, which starts with How Few Remain. It supposes a past where the Confederate States of America won their independence from the U.S., and the repercussions that follow. Over the course of 11 novels, Turtledove follows "history" from the Second Civil War in 1880 to the end of a very different World War II. It's so realistic that I've often wondered why I can't find Upton Sinclair in the list of American presidents.

Hi, Martin;

Yes, they're recent novels; Under Heaven was published in 2010, and River of Stars came out in 2013, so you should be able to find them easily.

Here's a link to a very useful website:Fantastic Fiction; http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/

My library includes it on its homepage. You can look up an author by last name, and it will bring up a brief bio with a list of books in publication order, and grouped according to series. If there's ever a question about which book came first if you're trying to read in order (like The Tales of the Otori), this is the place to find the answer. Mr. Kay has also written books about the troubadour tradition in medieval France, Moorish Spain, and the empire of Byzantium that might also be of interest.

Hope you enjoy them as much as I did!

Steve wrote: "Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... ..."

Have you read any Phillipa Gregory? English historical fiction, well researched and written.

Steve wrote: "Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... ..."

Patrick O'Brian's Aubry/Maturin series.

I agree with Valerie and the John Jakes Bicentennial Series.

I also recommend Trinity by Leon Uris and pretty much anything by James Michener. A couple of my Michener faves are Hawaii and Poland.

Michener books are sometimes ground into a fine dust and used as sleeping gas.

Michael, like any other thing, Michener's not for everyone. I like him; you don't; so...

Michener is used as a form of torture in some countries ;-)

;-)

This book far out weighed the movie. Loved it-highly recommend it

Steve wrote: "Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... ..."

Anna Karenina (Tolstoy)
East of Eden (Steinbeck)
Noble House (Clavell)
The Grapes of Wrath (Steinbeck)
The Seven Pillars of Wisdom (T.E. Lawrence)

One more to add - Sea of Poppies by Amitav Ghosh.

Megha wrote: "One more to add - Sea of Poppies by Amitav Ghosh."

What about Saigon by Anthony Grey?

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Steve wrote: "Do you have any other recommendations for authors or titles that are more in the realm of historical fiction rather than fantasy to share?"

Try Alexandre Dumas. The 1st..."

I was looking through comments to see if County of Monte Cristo was on the recommend list. I would second your suggestion, truly an epic book where you get to "live" within the era. A very different, but also book that captures an era, in my opinion, is The Last Hurrah. Boston politics from another era but a really wonderful story. And then Le Carre's "Karla' Trilogy another epic book that captures a certain time period.

All the best, RC

Tai Pan and Noble House are definitely excellent. I liked Gai Gin because I could relate to it, but it was less interesting. King Rat is a different type of book but good (if you enjoyed Catch 22 or Slaughter House Five you'll probably like King Rat. I haven't gotten to Whirl Wind yet.

If you like the historical Japanese aspects try some classics. 47 Ronin is good. Something a little more out there, but with similar themes are Cloud of Sparrows and Autumn Bridge. If you can get past the phantasmagorical nonsense they are great books. I wish there were more of them, the author wrote other novels, but not in English. Oh well.

"Accordion Crimes" by Annie Proulx
"A Thread of Grace" by Mary Doria Russell
"Cold Mountain" by Charles Frazier

and if you're willing to drift a little into fantastical realism:
"American Gods" by Neil Gaiman

That said, I also concur with those who recommend Steinbeck and Dumas (especially if you get a good translation) and add "War and Peace" under those terms as well.

Steve wrote: "Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... ..."

I really enjoyed "The Far Pavilions" by M M Kaye. Epic of the British raj. Remember reading it and "Shogun" many years ago along with Michener novels. Liked them all.

Hi Martin

I read Aztec by Gary Jennings and really enjoyed it. Tai Pan and Noble House are totally worth reading.
I also have Taiko and Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa on my list, but I haven't read them so I don't know if they are good or not.

Hi Martin,
Another series I thoroughly enjoyed was Conn Iggulden's Emperor series based in Rome. Though it can be a much discussed story, but it is good. He has also written a Conqueror series based on Kublai Khan- not read it though..

But seriously after reading an epic like shogun, I just felt like taking a break. Not that I disliked the story, but it has its own kind of hangover. I am presently reading "Book of Five rings" which was written by Musashi- a Ronin Samurai.

Steve wrote: "Loved Shōgun. Just finished it, and I'm truly devastated it's over. Felt the same was about Shantaram. It's not that I have an unhealthy obsession with epic novels... ..."

If you liked Shogun, then you will probably love The Shackles Of A Name.

It's set about 200 yrs before Shogun, during the civil war - it has a little more fantasy, but follows the first twenties years of the legendary swordsman, Nenami Jion.

As with also historical fiction, some liberties are taken, but I really enjoyed it.

I would highly recommend
London A Novel by Edward Rutherfurd

It is superb