The Pickwick Club discussion

Finally the moment has come, Fellow Pickwickians, and amongst them especially Peter ;-), for us to open discussions on the first five chapters of the novel.

Favourite quotations, favourite characters, observations, questions, inconsistencies - whatever crops up your mind ... place it here!

Narrator's voice - e.g. showing, not telling

Bearing in mind our running competition on grumpiness and knowing that it is hard to keep pace with some of you, I'd like to start my observations on this wonderful novel with some criticism of Dickens's tendency to use some very broad hints sometimes. Let me give you one example:

It is quite obvious that Dickens wants to tell us that Joe Willet and Dolly Varden are secretly enamoured of each other. The first time this fact is hinted at is when Joe inquires about Dolly's health and is fidgeting with Gabriel's horse's harness a great deal more than necessary. This fidgeting makes it quite clear that Joe wants to conceal his feelings about Dolly from her father. One gets the hint quite easily here. And yet Dickens does not seem to feel very confident about his readers' five wits because he has the intrusive - or shall I say, obtrusive - narrator add this, after a very skilful bit of dialogue, which also makes clear Joe's feelings very aptly,

"So saying, he raised his face, which was very red - no doubt from the exertion of strapping and buckling as aforesaid - ...

For all Dickens's art in telling the story, I find bits like these a bit annoying.

As Peter said, the first chapter is marvellous and very good at creating an unforgettable atmosphere. Solomon Daisy's story and its augural ending immediately kindled my interest in the story.

I like all the Maypole scenes, as they give me the feeling of sitting right there with the characters enjoying a glass of punch and one of those long-stemmed pipes that must be so pleasant to smoke.

I also think it's masterful how Dickens established a first parallel between the political level - the riots to come - and the private level - John Willet's tyranny over his son and Joe's urge to break free. However, Dickens's sympathies do not clearly lie with the young against the old, because next to the John Willet - Joe relationship we have the Gabriel Varden - Sim Tappertit relationship established two chapters later, and here the elder master is benevolent and just whereas Sim is a victim of his own delusions of grandeur. All this is very promising.

One of my favourite passages up to here is when John Willet starts philosophizing on mermaids and says that,

"'According to the constitution of mermaids, so much of a mermaid as is not a woman must be a fish.'"

It shows that John Willet has the whole world nicely categorized.

First, to quickly address the second poster who titled his comment, "Narrator's voice - e.g. showing, not telling." I understand what you are saying- how you don't want things to be stated in such obvious terms when they have already been established in a more subtle way. But for me such line as, "So saying, he raised his face, which was very red - no doubt from the exertion of strapping and buckling as aforesaid-...," provide that witty Dickens' comedy, and without such lines, my fondness for Dickens would wane.

My favorite character thus far is Joe. He appears to be a young individual with good values. Generally, these are the type of people that I root for not only in novels, but in life. I do hope that Joe and Dolly get together.

My least favorite character is Sim Tappertit. He is arrogant and egoistic, with a wicked Napoleon Complex. These are the exact qualities I root against in life.

Dolly appears to be another one of Dickens’ perfect fictional women, like Esther Summerson in 'Bleak House,' or Estella in 'Great Expectations,' that every man would give his left leg to have. The question thus becomes whether any man in 'Barnaby Rudge' will have Dolly?

As is always the case with Dickens, there are numerous great quotes. I too was fond of the “mermaid” quote mentioned by Tristram. I am a huge fan of Dickens’ descriptions. Within these first five chapters there are countless from which to choose. I found the description of Sim Tappertit to be particularly entertaining:

"Indeed he had been known to go so far as to boast that he could utterly quell and subdue the haughtiest beauty by a simple process which he termed 'eyeing her over'; but it must be added, that neither of this faculty, nor of the power he claimed to have, through the same gift, of vanquishing and heaving down dumb animals, even in a rabid state, had he ever furnished evidence which could be deemed quite satisfactory and conclusive. (Chapter 4) "

I am sure we all know individuals of this sort.

I am so fond of Dickens’ descriptions because of his extremely unique outlook on the world. Most authors provide descriptions in a straightforward way. But, Dickens provides them in such a strange and unusual way that they almost become amusing little riddles to solve (although the Tappertit example above is fairly straightforward). As long as you can figure out all the little nuances to which Dickens is referring, you will be greatly entertained. Take for example this description of Varden's house, also from chapter 4:

"It was a modest building, not very straight, not large, not tall; not bold faced, with great staring windows, but a shy, blinking house, with a conical roof going up into a peak over its garret window of four small panes of glass, like a cocked hat on the head of an elderly gentleman with one eye...it was not planned with a dull and wearisome regard to regularity, for no one window matched the other, or seemed to have the slightest reference to anything besides itself."

If you can put together all the little subtleties of this description, then you get quite an entertaining picture of this house.

Lastly I will touch upon my impression of Barnaby Rudge thus far. From what I know after five chapters I find it hard to believe that this character is going to be the title character of this novel. Through five chapters Barnaby has not had much to say, and I can't see him ever having much to say on account of his apparent mental retardation. From this I suppose that at some point Barnaby's actions will play a big role. Having neither read this novel before, nor any book review, the back cover, introduction, nor anything to give me any idea as to the substance of this novel, I am guessing that Barnaby in some way plays a role in the murders or the attacks that seem to be going to take place repeatedly throughout the novel. Perhaps he is a witness or perhaps he commits some of the murders himself. It just seems to me that often these kind of dim witted individuals play some such role. But, to add a further reason to why I am such an admirer of Dickens, these first five chapters are set up in such a way that this book can go in numerous different directions. We just have to wait and see where Dickens takes us.

Well Robert, the title is Barnaby rudge a tale of the riots of 80.
Ponder that.

I feel thus far all characters are on level playing ground . they are just people so far

John willet and crew are in a time capsule. Joe's rearing and subsequent life are like wildflower seeds to john. Throw em into the yard see what happens. In the end he will do what we do ,what has always been done. But that world is gone. Joe is young and knows he needs more to carve a path and live well. I love the maypole and would want be be old and fading by the fire believing it all, sure. If l were young and change were a brewing. Different story.

Sim seems unsavory but he's young. He wants to be someone some day. These locksmiths are gonna by phased out. He knows it. He wants dolly , that's all Gabriel is really good for. Another reason I love dickens. Belief in ones self. Sim feels worthy of all he aspires to be in mind and body!!?? I have to giggle because I picture him as a short sally brass!

I think Gabriel is a sweet guy. Such a good heart.

The scene where Mrs rudge is negotiating the three ring circus is hysterical!!!!! She's got the injured guy in one room. Barnaby in another. Gabriel dithering about telling her barnaby is gonna catch up ,like he's an idiot too. This marauder comes to the widow ..... It was like arsenic and old lace. Very slapstick!!

As for dolly . she neither here nor there.

I love Solomon daisy. For no reason other than I do.

So far these people are just going about their lives while A) change is brewing in the way life is lived and B) someone is skulking about scaring and beating and who knows what else. And to boot stranger is in town that was not impressed with daisy's story...? That is suspicious

People being people. In one night their lives begin to change.

I like the way we are taken into the maypole. We are seated about the fire and a story is told. Meanwhile the STORY begins...

This is a tale of the riots of 80. This little town is right outside the city even though disregarded by the city. I think that clue in the title is important to feeling the real tension and resistance to change here. As well as the need for change.

I could feel the politics of that city pressing in when joe rebelled.

I was unaware of the full title as my Wordsworth edition only says "Barnaby Rudge." Yes, this clue does fill in some context.

Tristram wrote: "Finally the moment has come, Fellow Pickwickians, and amongst them especially Peter ;-), for us to open discussions on the first five chapters of the novel.

Favourite quotations, favourite charact..."

Hi Tristram

Yes, I've been bursting at the seams, and it seems (pun intended ;) ) you have touched on some wonderful points.

Dickens's descriptions are so grand, so original. For The Maypole: "The Maypole was an old building, with more gable ends than a man would care to count on a sunny day." How perfect is that? And then inside The Maypole we have a mysterious traveller, a mystery tale told which is a murder story to boot. I really enjoy the names as well. Solomon Daisy ... Solemn Day. Great name for the role he plays early in the story.

Following up on your observations of the early political and private levels introduced in the novel by way of character we have another early use of foreshadowing when Dickens notes how it is always better "to turn aside [caprices] by temperate remonstrance rather than by ill-timed rebellion."

Christine wrote: "Well Robert, the title is Barnaby rudge a tale of the riots of 80.
Ponder that.

I feel thus far all characters are on level playing ground . they are just people so far

John willet and crew ar..."

Hi Christine

Did the initial descriptions of Sim Tappertit remind you of Quilp? Sim's "hideous and unparalleled contortions" as well as Sim's stature and height just rang a faint comparison bell in my mind.

I also liked your comments about the city feeling tense. " ... sounds arose - the striking of church clocks, the distant bark of dogs, the hum of traffic in the streets ... tall steeples ... unequal roofs ... the noise swelled into a louder sound"

Great stuff to begin the novel, don't you think?

Robert wrote: "First, to quickly address the second poster who titled his comment, "Narrator's voice - e.g. showing, not telling." I understand what you are saying- how you don't want things to be stated in such ..."

Hi Robert,

and welcome to the group!

As to what you say about Dickens's description of the Varden house, I agree that Dickens has the gift to describe places in a very graphic way. He often, as in this case, does this by means of personification - probably because his characters are so memorable, too. Another impressive instance of personifying a house occurred in Nicholas Nickleby, where evil Arthur Gride's house also shared in its owner's greed and scantiness in appearance.

As several other people have pointed out, the description of the Maypole Inn is also a little masterpiece. I especially like the optimistic ending of the description,

"It was a hale and hearty age though, still: and in the summer or autumn evenings, when the glow of the setting sun fell upon the oak and chestnut trees of the adjacent forest, the old house, partaking of its lustre, seemed their fit companion, and to have many good years of life in him yet."

Mark how he says "in him" as though he were talking about a person.

As a character, but not completely as a human being, I also like Sim Tappertit because it surely must be terrible for him to be confined to his small body and at the same time to be in love with Dolly, who would probably never consider him to be a suitor that can be taken seriously. Of course, Joe Willet is much more likeable, but Sim is the more interesting character to me.

Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Finally the moment has come, Fellow Pickwickians, and amongst them especially Peter ;-), for us to open discussions on the first five chapters of the novel.

Favourite quotations, ..."

Hi Christine and Peter,

I like this idea of "solemn day" being hidden in "Solomon Daisy" - what an instance of foreboding, and surely one that is not too obvious.

It likewise never occurred to me that you could see Sim Tappertit as some sort of Daniel Quilp what with his tendency to make grimaces and his inferiority in height. However, I don't really think that Sim is as pure an incarnation of evil as Quilp - but he seems to share some of the disgusting prurience that is so eminent in Quilp.

A smaller version of Sally Brass, that is what also occurred to me - especially if you compare the illustrations.

I also liked this little sentence when Gabriel is on his way to London,

"...and London - visible in the darkness by its own faint light, and not by that of Heaven - was at hand."

Is there some criticism of London as the realm of Man in opposition to the Realm Divine? It might also be read as a foreboding of the riots - as though the city were already in flames. Plus it reminds me of one of my favourite quoatations from Hitchcock - when in The 39 Steps the hypocritical and morose farmer says that towns were made by men, whereas the land, the countryside, was made by God.

Yes. Sim is quilpy! I didn't think of that on my own but he is! Certainly not as gross nor as controlling. But he could be young quilp.

Sim is designing but so far not evil. There's a long way to go though. I am intrigued by mrs rudges marauder. She knows him and Gabriel thinks he does. Hmmmmm. So much is going on.

Being a city girl ( philly). The most important line so far is " 12 miles outside London " . They might as well be in London but they are oblivious. Under a rock. The elders that is. I was afraid for them from the get go. But joe and sim are young and want to be part of the changes. When I first read this story I read up on the Gordon riots. It made a big difference. I figured that the riots had been a somewhat recent history and the original readers were living the social aftermath . I wanted to read it as they would have. With the riots too clear in my mind.

I like the way dickens made Bardeen so much like a preacher. Gentle , selfless, tolerant, everyone's friend... As a locksmith he has access to EVERYTHING. Only natural that he would ooze trustworthiness.

And his house! I can't even picture it. I read , get so far , then it falls down!! It's like the old lady's house in little dorritt. But as with dickens characters. They are house proud just the same.

God created me but dickens wrote my lines , I am a force to me reckoned with faults and all. I think I am ALL THAT. What a great writer!!

You've all echoed my thoughts, pretty much. I'm loving his description of the Maypole Inn and the atmosphere he creates on that night. I also feel like I'm sat there with them. I wonder if the London that he shows on that night is also foreshadowing? I don't know the story, so I guess I'll find out. :) The story of murder also has me captivated. I can't resist a murder or ghost story.

The characters are just so rich. From Dickens description, I feel like I have a very good idea about who they are. I wouldn't change the way Dickens writes for the world. Like Robert has said, I think it shows his wit. And perhaps, as Peter believes, he has purposefully characterised people as they are because of the format in which they were produced. I wonder if his characters would be so eccentric had he just written them as a novel?

I'm enjoying all the personalities, but I don't like Sim. Sly, arrogant, selfish. That's what I'm picking up so far. Barnaby Rudge. Well now, I'm intrigued. He's far from the character of a title holder I'd expect. Interesting...

So, now I'm in a quandary. Do I wait 4 or 5 days to read the next 5 chapters so it is really fresh to make a valuable comment, or give into curiosity and just read it now? LOL!

I love this story so much I say both!

Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I have to head back to work, so I'm making the most of the time, besides from looking after my own kids, of course. :)

Kate wrote: "Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I have to head back to work, so I'm..."

Hi Kate,

If I were you, I'd resist the temptation of reading too far in advance. I'm voicing my own experience here because when we were reading NN I just couldn't help reading on and on, and then in two cases I inadvertently let spoilers slip into my comments. One of them was even about the death of a character, but I forgot that the death had not yet occurred in the reading bit we were discussing then. I may have lived it down by now - though for no money on earth would I want to trespass again.

About Dickens's characters

What Peter said in the other thread about Dickens finding himself at a necessity to invest his characters with memorable features because of the serialization of his novels is a very interesting thought. However, I think Dickens does infinitely more than just add one or two memorable features to his characters. So maybe one could say that Dickens even made a virtue out of necessity and imbued his characters with so much life - most female heroines and Oliver excluded, though - that they seem to be able to even live outside the books. For example just consider my favourite character in Dickens's universe, Mrs. Gamp, and her inimitable ideolect. What's more, if you look closely, many a Dickens character has an ideolectic way of speaking. [This would, by the way, make a good subject for a thread in its own right.]

The Maypole was based on a real inn found in Chigwell, Essex, the King's Head Inn. In 1844 Charles Dickens wrote to Forster:

“Chigwell, my dear fellow, is the greatest place in the world. Name your day for going. Such a delicious old inn facing the church–such a lovely ride–such forest scenery–such an out-of-the-way rural place–such a sexton! I say again, Name your day.”

Here is a picture of the Inn now:

Chapter One certainly does give the feeling of a murder mystery. There seems to be a great deal of mystery anyway. One of the customers in the Maypole, a young gentleman

"of about eight-and-twenty, rather above the middle height, and though of somewhat slight figure, gracefully and strongly made"

who is in love with the niece of Geoffrey Haredale the owner of the nearby estate the Warren. She is the daughter of the murdered man in the story that Solomon Daisy tells those gathered at the Maypole. I am already interested in her story and the story of her young man.

When Solomon begins his story of the murder he says this:

"It happened that that night, an old gentleman who lived at Chigwell Row, and had long been poorly, deceased, and an order came to me at half after twelve o'clock at night to go and toll the passing-bell.'

I have never heard the tolling of a bell for a death. If we did that here, the church bell would have been ringing at two in the morning the night when my mother died, so I decided to look up this interesting practice. Here you go:

"Tolling" a bell refers to the slow ringing of a bell, about once every four to ten seconds. It is this type of ringing that is most often associated with a death, the slow pace broadcasting a feeling of sadness as opposed to the jubilance and liveliness of quicker ringing.

Customs vary regarding when and for how long the bell tolls at a funeral. One custom observed in some liturgical churches is to toll the bell once for each year of the life of the deceased. Another way to tell the age of the deceased is by tolling the bell in a pattern. For example if the deceased was 75 years old, the bell is tolled seven times for seventy, and then after a pause it is tolled five more times to show the five.

THE "passing bell" is the herald of death, but the custom of ringing it has largely been abandoned in America. Its object was to call attention to the fact that a soul was "passing" into the next world, and asked your prayers. More than this, it was believed that the ringing of the bell frightened the ever-present evil spirits, who would be making a special effort at the moment of death to obtain possession of the soul. It was at one time a common practice to ring the church bells during a thunderstorm, for Wagner (quoting Jurandus) says, "It is said that the wicked spirits that be in the region of the air fear much when they hear the bells, and this is why the bells be aringing when it thundereth, to the end that the foul fiend and wicked spirits should be abashed and flee, and cease from moving of the tempest."

A special bell was reserved for this purpose, known in Scotland as a "mort-bell," and another called the "soul-bell" tolled after death had taken place. It was possible to tell by the sound of the "soul-bell" if it was rung for an adult, or for a child, for in the former case the tenor was sounded and in the latter, the treble. It was, moreover, customary to distinguish the sex, by tolling three times for a man and twice for a woman, followed, after a pause, by a stroke for each year corresponding to the age of the deceased.

Gabriel Varden reminds me of the Cheeryble brothers of NN. I know there are some of you grumps that won't like that since the brothers were such good characters, but that's who I'm reminded of. I find it interesting that originally Dickens signed a contract in 1836 to write the book, then titled "Gabriel Varden-The Locksmith of London", for Richard Bentley of Bentley's Miscellany, he eventually changed publishers and the book didn't get published until later, with many changes.

Tristram wrote: "About Dickens's characters

What Peter said in the other thread about Dickens finding himself at a necessity to invest his characters with memorable features because of the serialization of his nov..."

Hi Tristram

Further our discussion about Dickens's creation of characters is the fact that since there were far fewer forms of entertainment available to the population, and roughly 2/3 of the population were functionally illiterate reading the novel was necessary. One of the major forms of recreation was a literate person reading to others in a pub, in a home, an understairs, in a croft, hovel etc. It is estimated that each individual part of a Dickens novel was heard by up to seven people. Thus, the verbal image, sight, dress, and language cues that were embedded in each section could be more easily remembered if they were constant and repeated. As we know, Dickens himself was famed for his readings, and perhaps died before his time because he was so driven by the need to act/read his work to others.

Sim also reminds me of another Dickens character, but one we haven't come to yet, so I'll wait for the comparision. Meanwhile, he seems a comic figure to me. As pointed out in an earlier post, he seems to think he can win any beauty just by eyeing her over and demonstrates this in Chapter 4:

"Although Sim Tappertit had taken no share in this conversation, no part of it being addressed to him, he had not been wanting in such silent manifestations of astonishment, as he deemed most compatible with the favourable display of his eyes. Regarding the pause which now ensued, as a particularly advantageous opportunity for doing great execution with them upon the locksmith's daughter (who he had no doubt was looking at him in mute admiration), he began to screw and twist his face, and especially those features, into such extraordinary, hideous, and unparalleled contortions, that Gabriel, who happened to look towards him, was stricken with amazement.

'Why, what the devil's the matter with the lad?' cried the locksmith. 'Is he choking?'

'Who?' demanded Sim, with some disdain.

'Who? Why, you,' returned his master. 'What do you mean by making those horrible faces over your breakfast?'

'Faces are matters of taste, sir,' said Mr Tappertit, rather discomfited; not the less so because he saw the locksmith's daughter smiling.

Peter wrote: "One of the major forms of recreation was a literate person reading to others in a pub, in a home, an understairs, in a croft, hovel etc"

That sounds like so much fun! Just sitting here in my home with people I care about, or hope to come to care about, just listening to someone read Dickens. Unfortunately for me, I can think of no one that, if I started reading a Dickens novel to them wouldn't either 1. start yawning or 2. have absolutely no idea what I was talking about. My family doesn't understand Dickens language.:-}

Kate wrote: "Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I have to head back to work, so I'm..."

Hi Kate, Christine and Kim

I am trying very hard to avoid reading BR ahead of schedule. It is really difficult to do, and I believe I will fall off the wagon before the end of the novel.

Perhaps my wife should take my e-reader and hid it from week to week. I'd then just go to the library.

There is a delightful, and perhaps romantic story that is passed around that goes like this.

One day a lady was at a Smith bookseller at a train station and asked the vendor for the next installment of the most recent Dickens novel. The vendor said that he had not received them yet. She persisted and said he should have it in stock by now. The lady became irritated on the station platform.

A rather short, well-dressed man approached her and said:

"Excuse me. My name is Charles Dickens and I have not yet even begun the next installment. It is not due until next week."

I'm not sure how accurate or even true the anecdote is, but I choose to believe it since it is so great.

Kim, as always, you are the research guru of all Pickwickians. Thanks for The Maypole pic.

Chapter 5 is more mystery. Gabriel Varden goes to the home of Barnaby and his mother Mrs. Rudge. We know she is a widow and we know why she is a widow, her husband had been the steward for Mr. Haredale and they had both been killed probably by the missing gardener. Dickens tells us that people who knew the Maypole story

" could call to mind that when her son was born, upon the very day the deed was known, he bore upon his wrist what seemed a smear of blood but half washed out."

So now who is this mysterious man who comes to her door while Gabriel Varden is visiting? She seems to be almost expecting him and certainly knows him. She seems afraid of him and stops Gabriel from chasing after him saying

'Come back, come back!' exclaimed the woman, clasping him; 'Do not touch him on your life. I charge you, come back. He carries other lives besides his own. Come back!'

Now I can't tell what exactly the man did to make Gabriel to chase him in the first place but what other lives does he carry but his own? I think he may be the long missing gardener.

Tristram wrote: " "So saying, he raised his face, which was very red - no doubt from the exertion of strapping and buckling as aforesaid - ...

For all Dickens's art in telling the story, I find bits like these a bit annoying. "

I found it quite the contrary. I thought it a very nice touch, showing not only the attraction to Dolly, but how significant it was to Joe -- not just a casual attraction, but something more serious than that (which tends to be harder to show in Victorian literature than in more morally looser modern writing).

Like Robert and Christine (and maybe others) I really enjoyed the Maypole, and hope we get back to it later in the story. It reminded me a lot of some of Hardy's writing, particularly the rehearsal scene in Under the Greenwood Tree.

Christine wrote: "This is a tale of the riots of 80"

It's not a spoiler to say that since it's in the title. But I have no idea what the riots of 80 were or what they were about. Presumably Dickens's original readers knew all about those riots, and so had that information available to them when they started reading BR, so it's fair game for us to research and discuss that before we get into the heart of the novel.

Does anybody know what these riots were about, or is it time to start doing some research?

Tristram wrote: "Of course, Joe Willet is much more likeable, but Sim is the more interesting character to me. "

We have commented before in this group that Dickens's unpleasant characters seem to be more interesting than his nice ones. It's back to the Milton/Satan paradox.

Kim wrote: "Sim also reminds me of another Dickens character, but one we haven't come to yet, so I'll wait for the comparision. Meanwhile, he seems a comic figure to me. "

Interesting. I don't personally see the comic aspects of his character (though I agree that some of his antics are funny to us, who watch objectively as he tries and fails to impress Dolly). But it will be interesting to see whether he does indeed develop into a comic figure, or whether his fate is too sad to justify considering him as such.

Two things confused me.

One, I had trouble sorting out the two strangers in the Maypole. The first left on foot for London, the second later on his horse. But I got them mixed up in the Maypole conversation, and still am not sure I know exactly which one was saying what.

Two, when Gabriel Varden ran his cart into the stranger's horse, the stranger was headed for London. So presumably Varden was coming away from London. But later we find that he was headed home toward London. How is it then that he was apparently going away from London when they collided? It seems pretty clear that they were heading in opposite directions, not that the horse overtook Varden's cart -- "he bore down so suddenly upon a vehicle which was coming towards him." And a few lines later, "Gabriel Varden quietly turned back, determining to get a light at the Maypole, and to take nothing but a light."

So who was going which way and how could they collide in the way Dickens says they did?

What's up there? Who was going which way and why was Varden

Everyman wrote: "Two things confused me.

One, I had trouble sorting out the two strangers in the Maypole. The first left on foot for London, the second later on his horse. But I got them mixed up in the Maypole ..."

Me too. I thought the same thing, and it is clear they both end up in London, so does the young guest. But why they passed each other on the road is beyond me. I even went back and re-read it to make sure he didn't just catch up to the vehicle and try to pass it but it definitely says "he bore down so suddenly upon a vehicle which was coming towards him" so sorry I have no idea.

Everyman wrote: "We have commented before in this group that Dickens's unpleasant characters seem to be more interesting than his nice ones. It's back to the Milton/Satan paradox."

Yes you have commented on it before, wrongly. I like the good guys. :-}

Kim wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Two things confused me.

One, I had trouble sorting out the two strangers in the Maypole. The first left on foot for London, the second later on his horse. But I got them mixed u..."

Me three. I'm confused about the directions.

Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: "Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I have to head back to..."

I'll take your advice Tristram. I wouldn't read ahead, but just want to read as close to the opening of the discussion date as possible, so not to forget. LOL.

Kim wrote: "The Maypole was based on a real inn found in Chigwell, Essex, the King's Head Inn. In 1844 Charles Dickens wrote to Forster:

“Chigwell, my dear fellow, is the greatest place in the world. Name y..."

Just as I imagined Kim. Being from England, I've frequented many a place such as this. One being one of the pubs in my own village. Up until several years ago it had lovely cosy chairs around the big roaring fireplace. Unfortunately, some fool thought they'd turn it into a wine bar, so now it has lost it's old world charm. As Ned Kelly once said, "such is life".

Kim wrote: "When Solomon begins his story of the murder he says this:

"It happened that that night, an old gentleman who lived at Chigwell Row, and had long been poorly, deceased, and an order came to me at h..."

The bell still tolls in my home village, though not in the middle of the night! LOL. It would be in the day time. Usually it's for people who belong to the church. Obviously, nowadays people are not expected to go to church, so it doesn't occur often. I think it's a nice idea though. We have a lovely eerie church and church yard, plus many old homes, around our village. I feel very fortunate to have experienced the English village life.

This part of the story also gave me flashbacks to Dickens' "The Chimes". I read that story just after we read ACC. I really enjoyed it.

Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "About Dickens's characters

What Peter said in the other thread about Dickens finding himself at a necessity to invest his characters with memorable features because of the seriali..."

And I'm thankful that we've had some amazing actors who have been able to pull of some of Dickens' characters on screen. One, I will never forget, being Pete Postlethwaite's role as Montague Tigg in Martin Chuzzlewit. Awesome. But Pete was one of my favourites, so could be slightly biased there. He certainly had the facial features of a Dickensian character. :)

Peter wrote: "Kate wrote: "Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I have to head back to..."

If only we could go back in time. I would definitely want to meet Dickens. Can you imagine bumping into him at the train station. LOL.

Kim wrote: "Sim also reminds me of another Dickens character, but one we haven't come to yet, so I'll wait for the comparision. Meanwhile, he seems a comic figure to me. As pointed out in an earlier post, he..."

One of my most favorite passages ever!!!

Everyman wrote: "Christine wrote: "This is a tale of the riots of 80"

It's not a spoiler to say that since it's in the title. But I have no idea what the riots of 80 were or what they were about. Presumably Dic..."

I did some research, because I always like to know the context in which a story is written. What I found is that the story is set around 'The Gordon Riots - June 1780'. This link provides details on the riots - http://www.victorianweb.org/history/r....

I haven't made comment on it because I'm a bit confused. I was hoping someone would put their ideas out there about it.

There is also an article written by Peter Ackroyd in The Guardian, about Barnaby Rudge. Warning, no doubt it contains spoilers, but I did a quick find without reading all the content and he confirms that the novel is about the Gordon Riots. If you're interested, the link is http://www.theguardian.com/books/2005....

:)

Everyman wrote: "Two things confused me.

One, I had trouble sorting out the two strangers in the Maypole. The first left on foot for London, the second later on his horse. But I got them mixed up in the Maypole ..."

Hi Everyman. I found it a bit confusing at first, but I eventually read "he bore down so suddenly upon a vehicle which was coming towards him" as, he was travelling at such a speed, coming up from behind the cart, that he was quickly coming towards it (even though they were both going the same way). I think Varden had already gone past the Maypole, or near it, but had to go back after their collision.

Everyman wrote: "Christine wrote: "This is a tale of the riots of 80"

It's not a spoiler to say that since it's in the title. But I have no idea what the riots of 80 were or what they were about. Presumably Dic..."


The Gordon riots. There were in 1780 ( I think) still laws existing the put penalties and restrictions on Catholics . well, there started a no popery campaign. Meaning no anti pope laws anymore!!! Of course these laws were left over from the Tudor debacle . when for years it flip flopped without mercy. Henry the 8 the started it. Kill the catholic. Kill the Protestants. Burn all the catholics. And so on. Even though the laws were largely forgotten they were used here and there to bully people etc. About 60,000 people staged a protest .marching on parliament. It went awry. Not only did it
Become a riot but Newgate prison was destroyed and all the prisoners set free.

Lord Gordon was the leader of movement. That's all I will say about him.

Joe, sim, dolly ,barnaby, miss haredale, and any other young people we might meet . are part of a new way of life beginning. The brewing of the riots , to the uneducated public represented their possible ability to effect change. Any change. That drove them as well as the religious aspect.


That is what's brewing.

Kate wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Kate wrote: "Christine wrote: "I love this story so much I say both!"

I might have to Christine. So many books to read though. LOL. I have 3 weeks of holidays left before I hav..."

Good for you! Its nice to have others weigh in on such things.

I reject self discipline for the most part. Lol. I'm on chapter 45!!

Kim wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Two things confused me.

One, I had trouble sorting out the two strangers in the Maypole. The first left on foot for London, the second later on his horse. But I got them mixed u..."

Nor have I ever figured this out. I just allow myself to be confused. It helps me feel vardens confusion all the more.

Kate wrote: "Kim wrote: "The Maypole was based on a real inn found in Chigwell, Essex, the King's Head Inn. "

The building still stands. It's The Old King's Head, and the site of Sheesh restaurant. From the History link on their website:

Built in 1547, Ye Olde Kings Head is one of the oldest public houses in England and is possibly the most renowned in Essex having been immortalised in Charles Dickens fifth novel ‘Barnaby Rudge’ as the Maypole Inn.

Famous visitors are said to include everyone from Dick Turpin and Winston Churchill to American actor and director Orson Welles.

Although Dickens says that the Maypole was 12 miles outside London, the Old King's Head is actually only 7 miles from London (again according to their website).

Their website:
http://sheeshrestaurant.co.uk/