AfterEllen.com Book Club discussion

From Page 237 until The End: What were your final thoughts?

One of the ONLY things I didn't like about the book was that we never got a good sense of Eva's feelings and what was going on for her. I kept waiting for Eva to tell Billie that their relationship was just because she was bored, just because she needed some escape from Ted's abuse. I'm ABSOLUTELY glad the author didn't take it in that direction, but I kept waiting for it because there was something in the story that made me question the depth of Eva's feelings for Billie. The ending cleared that up, for sure, because it was clear that Eva loved Billie all along. But still, I wanted some sense of that from Eva throughout the story.

But otherwise, I thought this was a beautifully-told love story. It broke my heart over and over, and in the end, I was just so moved and devastated that I couldn't stop thinking about it.

I think what was surprising for me was how much it hit home for me. The most devastating part of this book, in my opinion, was the fact that Billie never got over Eva, even though she built her whole life with someone else. Your first love burrows inside of you and never leaves. For the lucky people who end up with their first love, you never have to feel the loss of it. But when you lose that first love... there's always a part of you that's sad and missing that person, even if that person doesn't really exist anymore. You never really get over that... Billie never did. It's so true and honest and sad and human, at least in my experience. Obviously, others may feel differently.

I also loved how the book portrayed the limitless love mothers have for their children. Or at least some mothers anyway. Billie and Eva stayed for their children, loved their children, protected them as best they could... even when their children betrayed them. I thought that was a beautiful addition to the story.

This book was also sort of hard for me to read because it was such a painful reminder that if I had been born just two generations ago, that's probably the life I would have led. It's terrifying to think about. Today, many of us (but sadly not all) are able to live our lives the way we want to. Together. Openly. As ourselves. It destroys me to think about how all those closeted men and women suffered.

Ali... I agree w your comments about the era that Billie and Eva lived in, and it was nice to the acceptance come sorta full circle.

I didn't post about section two because it was just doom... Cancer... Dog murder... Abuse... Isolation... Separation... Guilt... Tragedy... And the sadness of Lou too.
Section 3 gave me back my hope. Effie and gussy were great... And although sad... It was so touching.

I'm sure this will sound cliche... But After reading on the afterellen interview w. Greenwood that she watched broke back mt. & Edie & Thea to do research on the era... I hope someone will make this into a motion picture. Not likely... But casting would be fun!

Like most of us I also loved this book. I really loved the story but I have a problem with Eva.

For example, Eva "loves" Billie, but after Billie loses her and eventually goes on with her life she has to lose Eva again because she has decided now that she' dying that she's going to contact Billie. That is one of the most selfish things I've seen in a story. She's going to die but she's going to leave Billie all alone (again). So poor Billie has to lose the love of her life a third time!
Then the worst happens, Eva has the accident, but then she stays with her husband? Why? Why doesn't she contact Billie, after she gets out of the hospital? Or maybe a one, two, three or even five years later?
I think Eva was too weak, if the accident wouldn't have happened I don't know if Eva would've stayed with Billie longer than a month.

But even though I thought Eva was weak, I really loved this story, it was very nice, I cried a lot. :)

Wasn't Eva supposed to have been institutionalize a post hospital?

Also... Was it selfish... Or does she realize that Billie has moved on & she's trying to be unselfish?

How would she find her? She left town... It's not do easy to locate her.

Oops... Institutionalized!

L.A:
Yes Eva was institutionalized but that was only for a while, after that she went back to Ted and her son.

She could've located Billie through her sister, the same way she was contacted all those years later. Billie left town eventually but Gussy stayed in the same place, but also Billie went back to her husband too, so she probably was still living there for a while.

Yeah but Eva was afraid of Ted. Remember the dog murder? He clearly sent the message that he would destroy everything Eva loved if he didn't get his way. He was dangerous, and she was deeply, deeply abused. Why would she stay with him all those years? Fear. Absolutely fear.

And then of course, there's always the matter of her and Billie supporting themselves. Women didn't have the same opportunities they do now. It was a completely different world.

Yeah, fear is a valid reason and that's my main problem with Eva, in my opinion she was just too weak. She lost her kids in an accident and almost died herself, and after that she couldn't say "I'm done and I'm leaving this bastard"?

About the matter of supporting themselves, they were going to be together before, when Eva had the accident, so they had thought about that already. I don't think that was what made her stay with Ted.

Yoly wrote: "She lost her kids in an accident and almost died herself, and after that she couldn't say "I'm done..."

But that's not always how it works, especially given the level of abuse she had suffered.

Also consider the fact that a person in Eva's position would be experiencing massive guilt following the accident. Her children died. For a mother like Eva, there's no greater tragedy. And in her mind, her kids died because SHE was "being selfish" and taking them from their home so she could be with Billie. I don't think logic applies to situations like this.

And as far the point about the women supporting themselves... I don't think this issue can be disregarded so easily. Both women fled out of desperation. They had planned it out, but it's not like it was an air-tight plan. It was an escape from a abuse, a last-ditch effort at happiness, a dream. And then for Eva, that dream ended when her children died. She was broken and destroyed and didn't have the will to continue on with a plan that wasn't very strong to begin with.

But that's not always how it works, especially given the level of abuse she had suffered."

And especially if she's weak :)

Don't get me wrong, I understand her thinking, women in that time were raised to believe they needed a man in order to survive, so I understand her trying to be "realistic" and thinking she couldn't do it differently, especially after their attempt failed horribly. But I also understand that at one point a person says "I'm done with this" and this usually comes after something big happens like losing your children and almost dying yourself.

It wouldn't have been impossible for them to get jobs. Billie herself was a secretary before she married Frank, wasn't she? There were a lot of clerical jobs for women in the 60s. It wouldn't have been as easy as 2014 but it wasn't impossible either.

Ok, so Eva was destroyed after the accident and didn't have the will to continue with their original plan, but why on earth does she contact Billie when she's dying?! Because she's weak and selfish, she wants to see her again before she dies, knowing that it will do Billie more harm than good.

Yoly wrote: "There were a lot of clerical jobs for women in the 60s."

But who would have taken care of all their kids? They didn't have daycare like we do now. It was an imperfect plan.

Yoly wrote: "...but why on earth does she contact Billie when she's dying?!"

Because this is a book with a plot and authors love plot twists? And well, because, I imagine when you're dying, you might reflect on your life and want to rid yourself of any regrets. Sure, it's selfish, but I think if there's one time in your life you get to be selfish, it's when you're dying.

And I'm not sure it did Billie more harm than good. Perhaps others had a different interpretations, but it seemed to me that Billie cherished the chance to say goodbye... and to have the relationship with Eva she always wanted, even if it was only for a short time. It was about closure, I think.

Things that stay with me...

How much of our lives are if not dictated, then at least strongly influenced by the time & place we are born into.

How claustrophobic and scripted my mothers life was... And how incredibly free I have been in comparison.

How many ceilings have been broken in the work place, politics, education, sports and in society on general.

How grateful I am for the shoulders I Stand on, and how much I owe the next generation.

How important it is to be engaged in the world around us... Best remedy against loneliness!

:)

Ali,

"Because this is a book with a plot and authors love plot twists?"

If we go down that path we're not really discussing the book anymore, we're discussing the author and why she chose to write it this way. But of course "it worked for Billie" in the end wasn't that the story the author was trying to write?

Although there are a few things I'm not too crazy about, I have no problem with the story, I loved it, but I just don't like Eva as a character because she seemed weak to me. I don't like the decisions Eva made, and of course we can come up with plenty of valid excuses of why things happened the way they did but in the end I only see that Eva was too weak and scared and eventually destroyed Billie's life because of it. Billie never recovered from that. Does this make the story any good? Yes, absolutely, it makes you feel things and that's what a book like this one is about. Do I have any respect for Eva? Nope.

I agree that them being together wasn't a perfect plan but do we really wait for a perfect plan to come along before we do anything? I don't think there's such thing as a perfect plan, there's always something that can and will go wrong and something that can be fixed along the way.

http://www.afterellen.com/t-greenwood....

This is a link to the interview w the author.
An interesting read.

Yoly wrote: "I don't think there's such thing as a perfect plan, there's always something that can and will go wrong and something that can be fixed along the way. ."

Yeah, but my point is that for the character of Eva, her actions made sense. To me. Obviously, they didn't to you. That's fine.

Yoly wrote: "If we go down that path we're not really discussing the book anymore, we're discussing the author and why she chose to write it this way."

Discussing the book and discussing why the author chose to write it that way aren't, in my mind, mutually exclusive.

L.A. wrote: "How grateful I am for the shoulders I Stand on, and how much I owe the next generation. "

Well said! Totally agree.

Ali wrote: "Discussing the book and discussing why the author chose to write it that way aren't, in my mind, mutually exclusive."

Yeah, you're right. In my case I was discussing the characters motivations, not how the actual story was written or why the author chose to write it a certain way.

Ali, I, too, wondered about Eva's true feelings for Billie for a long time and came to the conclusion that that's due to Billies insecurities. We see the story through Billie's eyes, so of course we can't know Eva's inner feelings. But Billie's point of view is biased by her seeing a prettier and more worldly Eva.

A lot has already been posted about Eva's motives, while I had a busy day. This is what I agree with: We know too little about what happened in between. (I would have loved to read about it, but that just didn't belong in this story.) We don't know when Billie finally left Frankie, moved to California, met Lou, Lou died. Eva was devastated after the accident plus was put away. She needed time to recover and didn't see a way to get away from Ted unharmed. I figured by the time she would have been able to contact Billie, Billie had already built a life with Lou and Eva might not have wanted to intrude, destroy that. And I don't think it did Billie more harm than good to see Eva in the end. It gave her closure.

Kim wrote: "We see the story through Billie's eyes, so of course we can't know Eva's inner feelings."

Kim, you're right about that. I suppose I'm just so used to stupid lesbian tropes that I was afraid one would find its way into this story. I was afraid Eva would just blow their affair off as boredom, so I guess I started reading everything with that expectation.

Just wondering... Do you all think that Gussy knows about Eva when she calls to summon Billie to visit? Or just suspect? Or does she really just believe in that 12 steps making amends story she cites?

Just wondering...

L.A. I'm guessing that she knew. Just like she knew about Billie and Eva but never said anything.

I also wasn't sure of Eva's feelings until the end. I felt like she was disconnected, or mirage-like, made up of bits and pieces that seemed slightly less than a whole earthy picture. However, as I thought about it, it seemed fitting as Eva was not only told through through the eyes of Billie, but told through those eyes decades after the events transpired. In that sense, it seemed right that Eva had a certain dream like quality to her. Also, Eva was quite terrified of her husband and, therefore, would be afraid to reveal too much.

At the end of the day, I am a bit...confused as to my feelings of the book. I was very moved while reading and zipped though it, but as I had some distance from it, I couldn't help but feel that my heart was wrenched in a wholly melodramatic fashion. Something struck me as a little too much. Yet, then I tell myself that the time in history at which the story takes pace would, of course, lend itself to such a story dipping into melodrama. It had to. The stakes were just so high then.

Lots of feels for sure.

I can't stop thinking about this book. I loved it.
I finished it late last night, literally crying into my pillow. I dove whole heartedly into the story and didn't have any qualms with either character, Billie or Eva, until near the end.
It was hard to imagine Eva going so long without reaching out to Billie, especially since she was usually the more daring of the two. She even returned to making mobiles, because of Billie, even after having stifled that part of her life for so long.
But then I had to remember them as living beings and not as fictional characters— beings who had lives across all of those years— and it could have been for a plethora of reasons that their paths never crossed again until the bittersweet end. That's a part of the story that we were never meant to be privy to and had things gone flawlessly for the women and their plan, their love story wouldn't have been as poignant.
Ah.
Rambling

I loved this book.

Ok. Ok. I'm going to say it. I did not like this book. I understand that I am in the minority here. I hesitate writing this because not only did you all like it a lot, but you all also seem to have been moved deeply emotionally while reading it. I, on the other hand, was not.

I could not get invested in these characters. Even from the beginning, I did not like Billie. Old Billie seemed so detached from life; making a show of her daily routine and people she encounters when in reality it is just a system she has put in place so she will be found quickly if she dies in the night. Also Billie (as well as the author) is so indifferent to Lou. In fact, the idea of Lou is probably where I felt the most sadness in this book. Lou, whom I guessed was a woman long before it was revealed, was there for Billie. They chose to have a relationship. They both entered this relationship older and scarred by life, but regardless they chose to be there for each other. But in Billie's retelling, she seems completely emotionally detached from Lou and the life they shared. Even if Billie is supposedly continuously mourning the loss of Eva, it still seems unbelievably cruel to refer to Lou this way.

I think Billie is selfish and a bad mother. There. Though, these are not reasons in themselves why I don't like her. It's the way that this book is told in Billie's voice, mostly as a memory. She wants to play the victim and the book is her trying to convince us she has been wronged. Wronged so far as to try and lay guilt on Johnny, first as a small boy who tattled on what he saw, and then as a grown man who has had a lifetime of troubles which can be traced back to her involvement. I think there is a struggle between a Billie of wanting to be the victim who had her whole life ruined and can never love again, innocent of all that happened and a Billie who wants to take blame for destroying two families and is struggling with the guilt of those consequences. But I think the narrating Billie is, in a way, too self-righteous about it all. I think in the right hands, it could have been an extraordinary story to read. Unfortunately, I felt that Greenwood mishandled it. The book was too melodramatic. Too many moments of foreshadowing doom and gloom. Too unbelievable is the twist of finding Eva still alive- but never having gone back to Billie. Just, too much. Unfortunately I spent most of the book rolling my eyes, not wiping tears from them.

I did read the AE interview with Greenwood. Honestly, I was a bit horrified that her methods of research were watching queer movies set around the '60s. And even if I can't explain it, I think that sums up the disappointment I had in this book and more so, the author. However, I did appreciate the comments she made about her devoted readers not having issues with the fact this is her first book with a same-sex love story. So I do have hope that a new audience will begin to understand that a love story is a love story, regardless of the sexes involved.

I'm sure I've upset some of the readers here. I am totally open to discussing it further even if I am very bad at articulating my thoughts. But I would like to say, as much as I disliked this book, I am enjoying that so many people did read it and are participating in the discussion. This book club is one of my favorite things happening and I look forward to a new book and a new set of thoughts and ideas each month. Thanks, everyone.

I agree with what you wrote in the 3rd paragraph, about Billie's 'selfishness' and placing guilt and blame on others. However I don't think it bothered me as much since she seemed self-aware and, as an older woman, seemed to be chastising her former self for ever being that way in the first place.

Also Billie was in the process of blossoming into her 'true' self, that is accepting and allowing herself to be in love with another woman, and I think that her plan to be with Eva in that era could not have been orchestrated in any less of a 'selfish' fashion. Unfortunately for Billie and Eva, it was not as simple as getting divorced from their husbands and running away together. Though not completely excusable, the lies and manipulation were a product of their time.

As for being a 'bad mother', Billie admits time and time again that she doesn't view herself as a good mother, so I didn't expect her to be a shining example of maternal instinct, but I don't think she was a terrible mother either.

I was able to overlook her 'flaws' and in fact think they made me enjoy reading her story all the more. But I can also understand how these attributes can be a turn-off to some readers.

Thanks Nicole for not ripping into me. I understand the reasons most of you have given for enjoying the book. Unfortunately, it is many of the same reasons why I disliked it.
In a strange way, actually, this book reminds me of The Awakening. And maybe, just maybe, I wanted it to be this good. A reason why I am so disappointed(?).

Amy, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the book. And you make a lot of valid points, and though I disagree, it's really, really good to have different perspectives on a book in a group like this.

All the things you disliked about Billie made her human, in my opinion. She might have been selfish, but so are most of us to some degree. Her mothering skills might not have been amazing, but that's human too. She might not have been head over heals, passionately, "the sun rises and sets with her face" in love with Lou, but, again, that feels Real (with a capital R). Old Billie read, to me, like a woman who had experienced a lot of hardship and a lot of loss and who had settled into a routine that wasn't exactly happiness, but wasn't unhappiness either. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, that feels very human and natural in my opinion. Maybe she wasn't likable, but that's true of a lot of real people.

BUT... the joy of groups like this is to hear everyone's perspective. I can only speak for myself, but please don't feel bad about disagreeing! That's the point!

Amy (folkpants) wrote: "Thanks Nicole for not ripping into me. I understand the reasons most of you have given for enjoying the book. Unfortunately, it is many of the same reasons why I disliked it.
In a strange way, act..."

Yes a lot of parallels!
I think I liked this better only because Billie got to live, and 'get out' so to speak, and find a place in the world.

Ali wrote: "BUT... the joy of groups like this is to hear everyone's perspective. I can only speak for myself, but please don't feel bad about disagreeing! That's the point! "

Completely agree!
I like reading all of these comments, not searching for anyone to be 'right' or 'wrong', but rather to see the text from a fresh perspective :)

Feelings!!

Ali wrote: "All the things you disliked about Billie made her human, in my opinion."

Ali, this is true, and I agree. I think the real problem I had was the book itself. Something about the narrative and writing style. I'll go back to the word "melodramatic" but that doesn't seem entirely correct. Like I said, I think the story had amazing potential. But for me, it was handled the wrong way. I don't know how to describe it, and it may make me sound a bit snobbish anyway. But I just didn't like the writing.

But I can understand the points you've made. I can see and understand Billie's actions to a degree. But, I really did feel like I was watching a bad soap opera at times. Which is a shame.

And YES! I love everyone's perspectives here!

Amy (folkpants) wrote: "But, I really did feel like I was watching a bad soap opera at times. Which is a shame."

Yeah, I hear you on that point, Amy. I suppose I was able to forgive the piling-it-on aspect of this book ("another horrible thing happened ON TOP of this other terrible thing...etc") because I connected personally with the story on a level that I wasn't expecting. But yeah, it was a lot of drama in one story. Didn't bother me, but I can see how it could bother some.

Amy, I got the bad soap opera vibe every once and awhile as well. I can't say that it ruined the experience for me, but it made me...cringey...on occasion. On the other hand, I kind of told myself that the melodrama lent itself to the period of the book.

Like you, I just can't put my finger on exactly why I did not love this book in total despite being fully engaged at certain parts.

I found this story engrossing and disturbing. I too am profoundly grateful to be living near NYC in the present day. It have me chills to think about what it would be like to feel stuck in a marriage to a man I never really loved, pretending, and having no economic independence. I think the constant depiction of Frankie and Ted being drunken bruisers was supposed to make Billie and Eva's story sympathetic. I was rooting for them knowing that it was all going to crash and burn eventually, I just hadn't imagined how bad it would crash.
The author's writing definitely bothered me and at times detracted from the story. I too chalked up the melodrama to the time period. I was able to accept as believable that Eva did not contact Billie until she was dying, and was a testament to just how broken and damaged she must have felt after her children died. The guilt must have buried her -- even after Ted died and the threat was gone, she was still in a cage not seeing the door was open. That to me was even more heartbreaking than Eva and Billie never being together, the fact that Eva wasn't strong enough to unshackle herself and that Billie was held hostage by her own guilt and memories of Eva. The time period was cruel and bitterly unaccepting for gay men and women. As much as I wanted Eva and Billie to tell their husbands to F off and take the kids with them I also realize without the proper support that would have taken a tremendous amount of strength.
I thought the scene where Billie was in the airport admiring the two young women together was touching and revealing of how much positive change has taken place in the past 50 years.

Selwa wrote: "...I think the constant depiction of Frankie and Ted being drunken bruisers was supposed to make Billie and Eva's story sympathetic..."

I think it was too convenient for the author to have both husbands be abusive drunks, it makes the reader want to root for Eva and Billie by default, and given her audience it seems like a safe way to go. But I wouldn't mind seeing at least one of the husbands be a caring decent guy, which would added a bit more to the story in my opinion. Having Ted be a caring nice guy, for example, would've helped Eva's feelings for Billie seem a bit more real and not the "I-just-need-to-get-away-from-this-monster" scary feeling that seemed like until the end.

I'm putting together some final thoughts and questions to post on AfterEllen this week, and just want to thank all of you for the awesome participation this month and the wonderful conversations that went on about this book. I also wanted to double check that you all don't mind if I quote some of you on the site. :)

Selwa... I was also thinking in a similar vein about the tenderness/acceptance that Effie and Devin offer Bille and Eva. Interracial couples would have faced discrimination too.

Jill - don't mind if you quote me :) loving all this discussion, too!!

Jill- Quote away!

Yoly- Fair point about the abusive husbands. It did make the story pile-it-on dramatic. But, I don't know, it didn't ruin it for me.

This was a great discussion and glad I participated, even if it was late. Quoting is fine with me.

I am rather happy that this was the first discussion I was alb to participate in as it was a really good one. Great book choice and great analyses. Thanks, all. (no probe with quotes either)

Yoly - I understand your point however we should also consider that both women married their husbands not out of love but circumstance. If both Billie and Eva were heterosexual romantics, they probably would have found their loving, tender, male counterparts and this story never would have existed. I think the behaviours of both Ted and Frankie are a reflection of the fact that neither women were participating in a life that they actively 'wanted'.

Also, Frankie reminds me a lot of my own father and relatives; it's possible to be kind and loving but still have a short-temper, especially when drinking.

Needless to say, I didn't think that the author was using the 'abusive husband' trope out of convenience.

Yoly, this fact about the husbands irritated me, too. And Nicole, you make a good point about them and the women.

I just saw it as lazy writing. (Not a fan of this one.) But also, I noticed that Billie's irritation of Frankie seemed to elevate only after she met Eva. In the beginning, Billie actually gushes over what a great father Frankie is. It seems that after she met Eva and dealt with Ted's rath, Billie began to see all of the faults in Frankie. And when she finally leaves him it is after an episode which Billie describes as horrible. Although, it really does not compare to the horrors that Eva suffers with Ted. Not that I am making excuses for Frankie, but this bit was annoying for me. I tried looking past it and was glad she finally left Frankie only to become incensed when she returned to him after Eva's "death."

Jill, I guess we are all answering your question: I am fine with being quoted, even though I am the grumpy gus when it comes to this book.

Very interesting thoughts this last week. I enjoyed reading all of your comments and am looking forward to the next discussion - as well as the post on AfterEllen. Being quoted wouldn't bother me, either.

Unpopular opinion: I think it was pretty realistic that Billie would go back to Frankie... It was a traumatic time and familiar routines, however loathsome, are sometimes necessary in the coping process.

This book gave me a bit of insight into the climate of (non)acceptance of same-sex sexuality in a very personal way that I haven't really thought about before. I particularly appreciated that the two women got to experience a bit of "freedom" in NYC, but their hopeful plans for escape from White Picket Fenceville went awry. The story might have been too implausible if they had that happy ending. But, I am really glad the author chose to...resurrect? Eva.

Some happy endings are appreciated :)