Feminist Science Fiction Fans discussion

A thread to carry on the discussion started under the Introductions thread re: women as a class and men as a class.

We live in a supposedly class less society, and yet it exists.....the haves and have nots...it's all quite easy to put us all into different baskets especially if you break it down into gender, but what about transgender folk?

Jaq, I think transgender folks face discrimination which is greater than that faced by either men or women. I also think we are all transgender. I'm a heterosexual woman, but the way I think and behave is in some ways more like a man. Supposedly male and female brains differ by how they handle spatial thinking and visual rotation. This is the result of progesterone. I excel in these areas. I high school I took a drafting class, the only female in the class and left the guys in the dust. My physical development also shows evidence of more testosterone than is usual for woman. I have more muscle mass than is typical of women and I lack flexibility.
If we define male and female as how brains work then I'm a transgender homosexual male. I suspect I face discrimination for thinking like a man but having a female body. It's subtle. People expect me to think as a woman would and assume I can multitask(a female though pattern) and when I can't they think something is wrong with me even if my style of thinking would be accepted and celebrated if I had a male body. Some discrimination is not so subtle. I was never given model airplane kits as a child even though I would have enjoyed the activity, and would have been given this type of toy if I were male. Also when people need someone to move furniture they automatically mask for men to help, even though I've got the necessary strength. I think what happens is that in assigning work people assume my skills are typically female and so give me the job of secretary or childcare instead of the job of doing construction or moving furniture. I end up looking like an idiot because I'm doing the wrong job. So I think male and female shouldn't be seen as binary social classes. I think dividing us up this way is in itself discriminatory.

Exactly Lizzie. I've gone through similar experiences, because I don't fit the societal norm for female behaviour (I loved Maths at High School and found myself in Advanced Maths with just one other girl who also enjoyed it, and we were made to feel ashamed because we weren't seeking out subjects more "appropriate")....by dividing us, we will never achieve what we are truly capable of - they'll assign tasks based on what society deems to be our roles.

I have a son, and I'm striving to ensure that I don't fall into the easy traps of defining him by his gender. instead we explore other areas, and he loves it. But I fear for what he'll experience when he leaves primary school and enters high school.....because then he'll find the gender roles reinforced.

But society controls through discrimination, and you just have to look at what mainstream media spills out, and you realise that anyone who isn't deemed to be "normal" is marginalised and labelled. I've lost count of the times I've been called names because I don't fit what is expected of me by society.

I just have to look at how marginalised transgender folk are here in Australia, and the lack of any legal recognition. It will be a long time I fear before a government will be enlightened enough to address this...

Its seems to me it's rather telling that transgender is sometimes used as a synonym of transsexual.

I've had a slightly transgender upbringing, was given the "wrong" toys and stuff but I don't think it amounted to much in the end. I think parents often overestimate their roles. A sexist society will give children a sexist education anyway. What matters most is whether a child wants to conform.

I've had female math and science teachers, females classmates who went to to do math in college and so forth... what of it? I can't recall anybody behaving as if that was remarkable. And that was all in the 20th century. This is 2014!

There are statistical differences between males and females. They're changing, as are brains, chemicals and stuff. But they're valid... as long as you use them to characterize large enough groups about which you have relevant data, NOT individuals.
That much should be obvious. No doctor will simply assume that your symptoms can't possibly be lung cancer because you don't smoke, right? So why should you be this way or that just because it's statistically more likely than if you were part of another group? Unlike those who set insurance prices and stuff, people you are meeting don't need to guess blindly using statistics.


As to the thread's topic, well, the person who wanted to say something about it ended up not posting anything...

I was confused by the distinction between "transgender" and "transexual," so I Googled the topic. It seems "transgender" is the umbrella term and "transexual" means those who wish to change their bodies. But I think the difference between the words is connotation. "Transexual" suggests a person is deviant. "Transgender" is more neutral emotionally.

I'm inclined to see the terms "transgender" and "transsexual" as nigh well synonymous with people who wish to transcend their original gender and embrace the lifestyles and norms associated with the other gender.

What if you want to change your body without embracing those lifestyles and norms?
The distinction between sex, gender and sexuality matters.

See Outis, that's what I'm trying to buck, by helping my child be exposed to different experiences, I'm hoping to grow a child that won't necessarily buckle under a sexist institution and choose instead their own path in this world. Instead of having to wade through a lifetime of "predetermined" out dated nonsense.

The issues still exist for children wanting to pursue careers that are not traditional especially for those who are in small country towns (as I was back in the 70's trying to do Maths which at the time was deemed a male subject - taught by men, to boys, because girls were meant to be married off when they left high school, and you don't need Maths to raise babies do you?????.....). I see it still happening and my country town isn't that small......but society still pushes people down paths, because it can't accept the change....or won't....

"Original gender" could mean genetics(X vs Y), appearance of genitalia(inny vs outy), type of reproductive equipment(ovaries vs testes), or spiritual gender. Some people view souls as having gender. These characteristics don't always match up neatly. A person may have a Y chromosome but develop with female genitalia. So what would be this person's original gender? I confess I'm puzzled by those who wish to change their bodies to match cultural norms or one gender or the other, but then I view the soul as without gender. I assume that if we accept that souls are made with gender that the original gender would be the gender of the soul. Those changing the appearance of their bodies are bringing their bodies in accord with their original gender.I suppose another view is that God made souls male and female, but never puts a male soul in a female body or vice versa. I understand these two positions but don't accept either because I see the soul as arising from the body and not separate or primary. If this is the case then all the bother about transgender and transexual is a bunch of fuss about not a whole lot, sort of like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Jaq wrote: "See Outis, that's what I'm trying to buck, by helping my child be exposed to different experiences, I'm hoping to grow a child that won't necessarily buckle under a sexist institution and choose instead their own path in this world. Instead of having to wade through a lifetime of "predetermined" out dated nonsense."
I got that.
Only I don't think this is the sort of experience that's decisive.
Will the kid even see conforming as buckling as opposed to making the most advantageous moves?

Having a good time not conforming and a bad time trying to fit in matters a whole lot more in my experience and according to the research I read about.
Anecdotally, I don't think that playing with girls or passing as a girl taught me anywhere as much as horrifying my mum by picking up the boys-will-be-boys thing from machos (or being victimized by bigots for that matter). Doing what one's parents want is just another way to conform.
Another thing which might be useful is meeting people who have a different religious background, sexuality and so forth and who are nevertheless doing well.
Ultimately how people end up the way they are is complicated and kind of mysterious. It seems much easier for parents to pass on verbal stuff (theories, vocabulary and so forth) than attitudes.

I guess from my own experience, my main aim is to ensure my child is a free thinker, who is resilient enough to cope with not fitting in, or conforming. I just get horrified by the amount of bullying that is looked on as character building. I've made a conscious effort to ensure that my child does meet a wide variety of people - I was brought up in a family that didn't, where fear of others was like banged into us, above all else...and I'm not having that nonsense passed on anymore.

It's also a case of doing things, rather than just saying it....and having them witness it.....it's the only way true change will occur....

Lizzie wrote: ""Original gender" could mean genetics(X vs Y), appearance of genitalia(inny vs outy), type of reproductive equipment(ovaries vs testes), or spiritual gender. Some people view souls as having gender..."

What happens when the original gender is medically altered? For example when a woman undergoes a complete hysterectomy? We use the word desexed about animals, does that same term apply to women who have undergone this radical surgery? Does gender change? Outwardly you may be the same, but you'll never be the same inwardly......