Jane Austen discussion

Although Emma believes she may indeed be a little in love with Mr Churchill, she believes Harriet would do much better with him. Meet Mrs Elton, who does not make a favourable first impression. Unluckily for Jane, Mrs Elton decides to take her under her wing. Emma gives Mrs Elton a welcome dinner, and some interesting discussions cause suspicions to grow... Frank is due to return to Highbury before long.

I am surprised a bit that Mrs.Elton didn't look high then Mr.Elton with all her talk of Maple Grove you would think she would of tried to marry higher.I mean she never shuts up about Maple Grove.Or did she want to come to a town were she thought everyone below her and think to give them all wisdom rather then marry higher.What do you ladies think?

I HATE Mrs.Elton and she is one of my least favorite characters in Austen.I wonder if she will run Mr.Elton into debt trying to be like Maple Grove.I hope she does I can't stand that women.What do you ladies think?Will she run him into debt?

I can't believe that anyone would like Mrs.Elton better then Harriet.Harriet so nice and sweet tempered and Mrs.Elton so vulgar and always thinking herself to above everyone.

Poor Jane.She must hate being Mrs.Elton's favorite with her good sense.

Mr.Woodhouse was so nice to Mrs.Elton to give a dinner.He was was kind to worry about not giving her a bride visit.She didn't deserve one.

I think the Eltons are a match made in heaven. They are both so much alike. It is just that Mrs. Elton openly shows it while her dear Mr. Elton wears a facade.

I am glad Mr. Elton didn't choose Harriet. She is too good for him and he would be the death of her.

CH 31

As Emma analyzes herself, she shows her lack of true feelings for Frank Churchill. Even when she imagines him proposing to her, she always refuses with the excuse she cannot desert her father.


CH 32

Augusta to be an insufferable woman who lacks social propriety; she is horrified that she referred to Knightley without the proper mode of address and called her husband Mr. E. In contrast, Mr. Woodhouse finds Augusta to be a pretty young lady, although he complains about the quickness of her voice, which hurt his ears. He insists upon returning Mrs. Elton's visit despite Emma's strong objection

Augusta Elton, in many ways, is a vulgarized version of Emma, but also a contrast. Both women are conceited and vain, largely because of their wealth. Emma, however, is the daughter of a gentleman landlord of the upper class, while Augusta is the daughter of a wealthy tradesman. Like Emma, Augusta can be frank; she also desires to dominate and patronize, like Emma, but she lacks Emma's sophistication, good sense, and intelligence.

Emma is usually filled with social grace, but Mrs. Elton is inelegant in both mind and manners. She refers to Mr. Elton as Mr. E and speaks of Mr. Knightley as only Knightley, though she hardly knows him. She is inelegant in mind, hurting Emma's sensibilities by offering to take she and Harriet in her brother-in- law's barouche-landau to explore Highbury, by offering Emma introductions for a health resort in Bath, and by daring to suggest to Emma that they start a musical society for young wives. It is not surprising that Emma finds her detestable.

In this chapter, it becomes obvious that Emma really does not like any female that she cannot control. She is fond of Harriet, because the young girl does just as Emma pleases. On the other hand, Emma has no use for Jane or Augusta, because they are their own women and challenge Emma's dominance.

CH 33

The Eltons show their inelegance in manners when they decide to snub Harriet in order to take revenge on Emma. Mr. Elton wants to humiliate Emma for rejecting his proposal, and Mrs. Elton wants to demean Emma since she has refused to cooperate with her in a number of her plans for the improvement of Highbury. Since they dare not criticize Emma openly, they direct their dislike to the innocent Harriet. It is obvious that Jane Austen's sympathy is with the landed gentry, for she always depicts the middle class with a merchant background, as seen in Augusta, with ridicule.

Emma is still ignorant about her true feelings for Knightley; but their relationship progresses to the extent that he assures Emma that he has no romantic interest in Jane. She tells him that she hopes he never marries, because she does not want him to stop coming to Hartfield for regular visits.

Jane Fairfax, as Emma puts it, remains a riddle. Emma cannot understand much of the young lady's actions or thinking; she feels certain, however, that Jane is under someone's influence. The naïve Emma never suspects that it is Frank. She is relieved, however, to learn that Knightley has no romantic interest in Jane and judges her to be much too reserved. Knightley and Emma, like most of the upper class in Highbury, appreciate straight forwardness, frankness, and freedom from double standards.

CH 34

As a newly wed couple, the Elton's are often entertained. Emma, with the approval of her father, invites them to a dinner party. Besides the Eltons, the guests are to include the Westons, and Knightley. Harriet has decided not to come, for she feels embarrassed in Elton's presence. At Knightley's suggestions, Emma invites Jane in place of Harriet.

Two days before the dinner, John Knightley and his two sons arrive. Mr. Woodhouse objects to dinner for nine. Luckily, Mr. Weston quite unexpectedly has to go to town on business. This sudden change in the guest list puts Mr. Woodhouse at ease. When the party starts, John converses with Jane. He had met Jane in the morning when he had gone to the post-office in the rain. When Mrs. Elton hears about Jane going to the post office in the rain, she insists that she must not go to post-office under any circumstances. She says she will have her servant collect Jane's mail and deliver it; Jane, however, opposes this arrangement. This makes the imaginative Emma believe that the letters Jane receives must be from some one very dear; she does not, however, imagine that the letters are probably from Frank, but suspects they come from Mr. Dixon. She tactfully does not inquire of Jane who the writer is.

Jane changes the topic and praises the post-office staff for delivering letters at the right places and deciphering all kinds of handwriting. This prompts Mr. Woodhouse to praise the handwriting of his daughters. Mr. Knightley observes that Emma's handwriting is stronger than that of Isabella, while Frank's handwriting, which Emma praises, is too small and lacks strength. When dinner is announced, the vulgar Mrs. Elton says, "Must I go first? I am really ashamed of always leading the way."

CH 35&36

After dinner, the women go to the drawing room, where Mrs. Elton avoids Emma and takes Jane aside to inquire about her chances of getting a job as a governess. Jane tells Mrs. Elton that she has not yet attempted to find one. The bold Mrs. Elton tells Jane that with her brother-in-law Suckling's recommendation, she can find a good situation with a rich family, especially with her musical talent. Jane states that she is in no hurry, for she wants to visit with the Campbells after their return from Ireland.

Mr. Woodhouse is the first of the men to come to the drawing room and Mrs. Elton comments on his gallantry. Mr. Weston then enters in a happy mood and gives his wife a letter from Frank; he has come straight from London. While Emma and Mrs. Weston read the letter, Mr. Weston informs the others that his son and the Churchills will be in London for a month, and he will visit them frequently. Mrs. Weston is happy to think about Frank's visits to Randalls, but Emma cannot decide whether the news makes her happy.

Mr. Weston tells Augusta that he opened Frank's letter even though it was addressed to Mrs. Weston. His reading of his wife's letter is not a serious offense since it is just information about Mrs. Churchill's recovery from her illness and their plan to stay in London for a month. Mrs. Elton suggests that it would be better for her health if Mrs. Churchill were to visit Bath or Clifton. Mr. Weston then turns the conversation to Frank, who is planning another visit in May. Their conversation ends when tea is served.

After tea, the Westons and Mr. Elton play cards with Mr. Woodhouse. John Knightley tells Emma that she must send his sons back to London if they stand in the way of her social engagements. Before Emma replies, George Knightley tells him that the boys can be sent to Donwell Abbey. As their uncle, he will watch them. Emma is hurt by Knightley's suggestion, for she realizes that he knows there is no social life for her in Highbury. She is seldom away from Hartfield for as much as two hours. Emma also knows she certainly has more time to care for the boys than George Knightley does.

@Nicole D

I know why Elton rushed into it, but I think she just accepted because I think she is all talk and no facts. She always talks of Maple Grove and all and she talks of visits from them but does it ever happen? No.

I hope she does run him into debts, although she is pretty well off! I cannot stand her! I think she, or Mrs Norris, is my least favourite character! She is abominable! So rude and so boastful! I cannot stand her and her wish to always be the centre of attention! Her I am with Emma's judge of character!

@Samanta
I agree - they deserve each other. And I hope they will be very UNhappy together :)


@Carol CH 31

I am glad she examines her feelings and realises it was all just a pleasing idea, but in reality, she doesn't want to marry him, even if Mr and mrs Weston do.

@ Carol CH 32

I sort of see your point about Mrs Elton and Emma - but Mrs Elton is soo much more vulgar and unrefined than Emma! there is a big difference!

It makes me angry when she starts referring to Mr Knightley as Knightley! Emma has never done that and has known him for so long!

@ Carol CH 33

I think her admitting she doesn't want him to ever marry because she likes him visiting so often is sort of Emma starting to realise and even admit without realising it that she has feelings of another sort for Knightley.

@Carol CH 34

Jane is becoming more and more of a mystery you are correct. the whole ordeal about the letter is very intriguing indeed.

"Must I go first? I am really ashamed of always leading the way." Oh she is so annoying!!!

@ Carol CH 35&36

I like to see Jane continuing to refuse Mrs Elton's persistence for her to get a job as a governess! Stand your ground Jane!

Emma is starting to realise how she has never left Highbury and knows so little about the world.

@Carol Re Ch 32

That is a very keen observation that Emma dislikes women whom she cannot control. Both Jane F and Mrs. Eldon are their own women and don't feel the need to follow Emma around and to do HER will.

Is Emma somehow a well of insecurity that she is only comfortable with women who openly admire her?

JA has has written Mrs. E in such a way as to not arouse Sympathy in the reader (she called my beloved Mr. Knightly only "Knightly" after all). However, this is not true if Jane F. Jane F arouses sympathy and admiration in this reader. I admire her especially since she does not fawn over Emma and follow her around like a puppy.

Oh Jane Austen is very clever with her characters - she knows who she wants you to like and not like. Jane she wants you to feel for but Mrs Elton... No. Not at all. And I don't! She is awful!

@Soph

Yes JA is indeed clever with her characters. In the beginning, I thought Rev Eldon to be ok and took exception to Emma's trying to induce him into a marriage with an unequal partner when she would never do it and I thought he could do better for himself. I even thought he could marry someone better than his chosen bride to be when she and her estate were described before we met her. Now JA has chosen to turn the reader against him.

Oh yes you do turn against him. I have to say a pity him a little, but only a very little!, because Augusta is so awful! But his behaviour is also appalling so yes we have been turned against him!

@Soph

Augusta is indeed detestable. However, I can't help but admire her independence for not allowing herself to be controlled by Emma. It would have been easy with her middle class merchant background to be obsequious and try to gain Emma's favor (which she would not have gotten) by fawning over her. Although Emma has rejected her overtures, Augusta is still trying to establish herself in her new community independent of Emma and seems none the worse for it at this point in the book.

You do have a point. But she still annoys me!!

Carol wrote: "CH 31

Emma has no use for Jane or Augusta, because they are their own women and challenge Emma's dominance..."

That is such a negative spin on Emma! She doesn't like Augusta because Augusta is insufferable! We already know she doesn't like Jane because she's had to listen to stories of her constantly, plus she feels inferior to her. I don't think Emma wants to dominate and control other women. I am so surprised by the terrible feelings people here have towards Emma.

I get where this idea comes from but I don't agree with it. I don't think Emma wants to dominate everyone! Mrs Elton is just so.... Urgh!!

@Marcy

If Emma does not want to dominate and control, I feel she wants to be preeminent. I don't feel she wants to be on equal footing as friends with women. I feel since her high social position seems to be in the forefront of her mind, she can't have a genuine friendship with persons of her gender. Her rank is a known fact, but I don't think that she needs to be thinking of it or the fact others are not of her rank.

I used to really like Mrs. Elton in the different movie adaptations. She was so ridiculous and high-and-mighty that I found it rather funny, but in the book she is downright insufferable!!

And the reverse happened with Miss Bates; I found her annoying in the movies, but in the book you really see how nice and kind and happy she always is!

I never liked Mrs Elton but I agree she comes off worse in the book.
Since re reading and re watching different adaptations Miss Bates has grown on me more and more, although she never really annoyed me. I always liked her and her long speeches conveying nothing!

I expected that reading Miss Bates's speeches would be a dead bore, but I actually enjoyed it! She's so funny and so kind to everyone!

She is pretty sweet!

I love reading Miss Bates speaches.They are some of my favorite parts in the book.She moves for one subject to the other so fast.I think it is very impressive that she even remembers what she is talking about.

It is impressive she can remember ahahan

Nicole D. wrote: "I love reading Miss Bates speaches.They are some of my favorite parts in the book.She moves for one subject to the other so fast.I think it is very impressive that she even remembers what she is ta..."

Ah, I am not the only one!! Most people find her speeches annoying, but I agree with you and I liked reading them too! She does jump impressively from subject to subject!

There's no harm in Miss Bates. She never says anything bad and she's kind to everyone. She's so pathetically grateful for even the slightest kindness that is done to her and Mrs Bates.

I enjoyed reading Miss Bates' speeches because of the skill of Author. In JAs capable hands, they are fun to read. In another writer's hand, probably not so much ;-).

I agree Andrea!! Only JA could male her long speeches interesting!!

Only Jane Austen indeed!

Only One other writer has that talent for me Georgette Heyer.That authoress can make almost anything wonderful like Jane Austen.

There is a character in one of GHs books called "Black Sheep" who babbles in exactly the same way as Miss Bates. I'll bet GH got that idea for that particular character from JAs babbling Miss Bates. I recall thinking of the Black Sheep babbler when I read Miss Bates' stream of meaningless chatter.

I haven't read Black Sheep yet.Know I can't wait to read it even more.

Nicole, Black Sheep is in my top. 6 GHs novels (I couldn't keep to top 5 ;-P). It's delightful. I hope when you read it that you'll find it so also.

Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Nicole, Black Sheep is in my top. 6 GHs novels (I couldn't keep to top 5 ;-P). It's delightful. I hope when you read it that you'll find it so also."

I have loved almost every book I have read of hers.The only one I didn't like was Powder and Patch.

I wasn't crazy about Powder and Patch either.

I love how JA does her characters. Yes, Mrs. Elton is annoying and amazingly self-centered. I love how she presumes in one situtation after another - how she assumes that the ball is being given in her honor - how she constantly turns the conversation to herself - and how presumptuous she seems to the denizens of Highbury, with the way she shortens everyone's name: Mr. E, Knightley, and Jane.

Miss Bates ... yes, she talks on forever, but if you look carefully you will see that she is not dumb (obviously not mute-dumb) at all. She had noticed something between Elton and Emma before. And some of her comments are really funny... like when she is telling Mr. Woodhouse that they will use the meat he sent them (actually Emma sent it) to make roast pork, just after he was saying that no one should ever eat roast pork.

She is brilliant with characters, annoying characters in particular!

Mr. Woodhouse is funny too.

Andrea IS Catsos Person wrote: "Mr. Woodhouse is funny too."

Yes, I adore Mr. Woodhouse. His obsession with gruel, his fondness for his daughters and Mrs. Weston - and yet sometimes he hits on just the right thing.

Marcy wrote: "Carol wrote: "CH 31

Emma has no use for Jane or Augusta, because they are their own women and challenge Emma's dominance..."

That is such a negative spin on Emma! She doesn't like Augusta because Augusta is insufferable! We already know she doesn't like Jane because she's had to listen to stories of her constantly, plus she feels inferior to her. I don't think Emma wants to dominate and control other women. I am so surprised by the terrible feelings people here have towards Emma. "


I completely agree Marcy, I’m a little surprised by the negativity too. I do not see Emma’s behaviour as a need to dominate at all, rather she is conscious of what she owes to her position and is very aware of what good manners are. If she was not, she would not invite Mrs Elton or Jane to her house, because she cannot warm to them. Mrs Weston is the closest she has to an equal in Highbury but having grown up with her, their relationship is different. She is drawn to people with open feelings who show her affection (aren’t we all?), that does not mean she wants to dominate them. Miss Bates might get on her nerves but she never means to slight her and Harriet is just easier to get along with than Jane but what she does, however misguided in Harriet’s case, is done with good intentions.

I love the scene in chapter 36 where Mrs Elton is describing the sort of people she doesn’t like to Mr Weston in response to his description of Mrs Churchill and is oblivious of the fact she is describing herself, it was beautifully written. I think Augusta would have looked higher for a husband if she could, but the truth is, Mr Elton is the best she could do. Emma is forced to accept her because of the status of her husband (a point Emma tried to make about Harriet) but she would no doubt have been snubbed in the higher circles of London.

Georgette Heyer is a favourite of mine too 