Jane Austen discussion
Emma Group Read
>
Chapters 19-24:
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator
(new)
Jan 12, 2014 08:53AM
Mod
reply
|
flag
Mr..Elton is going to be married to a Augusta Hawkins with no name,no blood,no alliance only 10,000 pounds.I would have thought Mr.Elton would have at least looked higher.I think he left to marry someone and someone he would have as long as they had money and were a gentlewomen.I don't think he was going to come back home unmarried after Emma turned him down and he found out that she thought he loved Harriet.What do you ladies think?When Harriet runs into the Martins Mr.Martin shows himself to be a true gentlemen and has his sister talk and be nice to Harriet and even says a few kind words himself.Mr.Elton my have been born a gentleman but IMO Robert Martin is the true gentleman of the two.
When Harriet returns the Martin's visit I only wish that Emma carriage had broken down and she would have to to walk to get Harriet.Harriet was the so happy when they were talking about old times but then Emma came and ruined everything.I think a visit to the Martins would have done away with her regard to Elton.
But she cut them and very rudely too.Even Emma thought she was making Harriet do a rude thing to cut the visit at only 15 mins with she had stayed with them for 6 weeks before.
Frank Churchill finally comes.He is quick to charm his way into everyone's hearts but Knightley of course.Plus he has meet and knows a little of Jane Fairfax who has just come for a visit and agrees with Emma that she is to reserved to like.
I have always liked Jane Fairfax and wish we could have seen throw her eyes for some of the novel.I would have loved to get inside her head a bit.In fact I wish she was the heroine and not Emma.
When Miss Bates says One takes up a notion and runs away with it.I think this quote fits Emma.
Mod
I agree. Elton definitely was not going to come back unmarried after such humiliation. He was going to marry the first respectable enough and rich enough woman he could. His choice is not made with good reasons or sense - a rash decision and just to get back at Emma really. He clearly regrets it later!
I also agree about Martin - he is clearly the gentleman in character and manners even if he isn't considered one in society's eyes, and Mr Elton is meant to be! He most certainly doesn't act as a gentleman should!
Emma getting them to cut the Martins acquaintance is harsh! After spending so much time with them and then only 15 minutes... but Emma does think it is for the best and is Harriet going to be the one to argue and dispute with Emma? No. Of course she will just do as she is told.
While I do not wish she was the heroine, I do wish we could have seen more to Jane's thoughts as well. I bet she had a lot she wanted to say but couldn't! especially later on!
'One takes up a notion and runs away with it.'
This is most definitely Emma all over!
Mod
But, I completely agree and wonder as well. I would have been really angry if I was her!
Comment from Samanta:
(view spoiler)
No problem, Soph....I still don't know how to do technical stuff here on Goodreads but I will be careful next time :)
Mod
I can't wait to discuss what you mentioned though. I have some strong opinions on his behaviour and treatment of her!
Sorry Soph . . . I am behind but I will finish this book tomorrow!!
CH 19&20Emma and Harriet visit Miss Bates, who is very proud of Jane, yet how Miss Bates goes on and on chattering about everything regarding Jane. I can't blame Emma for leaving Bates home as soon as possible.
Is Emma's reason of her dislike of Jane due to Emma's immaturity or is it that Jane is truly a step ahead of Emma, behaving like a dear young lady- do you agree? I think that Jane is more reserved and does what is expected of a young lady, where Emma is busy making up stories in her mind and acting immature?
CH 21Mr. Knightley is pleased with the change in Emma’s manners with regard to Jane Fairfax. Is it for real or is she just trying to get along?
Miss Bates shares with everyone that Elton has married Miss Hawkins of Bath. Miss Bates rambles on about her good neighbor, Elton. Harriet has a chance meeting with Mr. Martin and enjoyed it. Emma is not too happy because she still feels that Martin is not a suitable husband for Harriet. Why is Emma still trying to manipulate Harriet?
CH 22Elton returns with his betrothed, Miss Augusta Hawkins, and her dowry of ten thousand pounds (both of her parents are deceased.) They return to Bath to marry. Emma tries to help Harriet regarding Elton’s upcoming marriage.
CH 23Emma stops at the Abbey Farm, and misses Harriet; then she goes to the Westons, and they are out. But in passing she speaks with them and learns that Frank Churchill will be arriving tomorrow at Woodhouse.
CH 24Emma is instantly attracted to Frank Churchill. He is handsome, good manners, and fun to be with. Frank visited the Bates house and Frank states that Miss Bates if very talkative (really!) Emma inquires about Jane, and Frank informs her that Jane is ill and pale. Emma asks Frank about Jane at Weymouth, and Frank replies that answer “is a woman’s privilege.” Emma makes it clear to Frank that she and Jane are not good friends and blames it on the fact that Jane is so reserved. Frank agrees that a reserved person cannot be easily loved.
Emma is pleased that Frank seems to be anxious to marry for love, which pleases Emma. When Emma asks Frank direct questions about the nature of his acquaintance with Jane, he avoids answering her by changing the subject.
Re Ch 19 & 20The Bates' are hilarious bores! However, I think it can be credited to JAs genius that reading such useless chatter is fun! However, I would hate to have to listen to someone like Miss Bates as poor Emma did. I don't blame Emma for fleeing.
I think Emma is not very mature (due to her youth) by making up scenarios and stories that are all in her head (in this case about Jane F.) and then acting on them. She still had not learned her lesson from the Harriet/Elton debacle.
Though I think Emma's questions to Jane F about Frank C were harmless, I think that Jane showed maturity in not allowing herself to be drawn into what she (Jane) may have felt was gossip.
Re Ch 21Why is Emma still trying to manipulate Harriet? Because of an unwillingness to learn from the debacle of trying to manipulate Elton into a mésalliance with Harriet, that's why. People who don't learn from their mistakes are not very wise. Emma seems willfully stupid where this experience and Harriet herself are concerned. I really think that Harriet is a "project" for Emma, who is in want of something to do. What arrogance!
The Martin family all trying to elevate their status by an alliance with Harriet!?!? It looks like Emma is still making up stories and scenarios on her head.
Again, if Harriet is not of sufficient rank as Emma's so called friend, to call her anything but miss Woodhouse, why would she think Mr Elton should enter into a alliance with an inferior partner?
Re Ch 22Emma's solicitude and concern for "what is to become of Harriet," are a detriment to Harriet. Although Emma is trying to "control" Harriet's level of friendship with the Martin ladies, I still hope Harriet and Mr. Martin will end up together in the end.
Re Ch 23Oh dear! If Emma is pleased with Frank Churchill, I must wait for Mr. Knightly's assessment. His understanding and judgement is very keen. I will guided by Mr. Ks opinion of FC, even if he is jealous (as someone of you have said when K and Emma discussed FC in a previous chapter).
Will Emma make up stories and scenarios about FC?
Re Ch 24I felt some alarms about FC in ch 23, but now bells are ringing away!
@NicoleI was taken off guard by Elton's betrothal and in his choice of a bride. Although he is not the. "True gentleman" that Mr. Martin is, I thought Elton could have looked higher for a wife.
Although I have seen little of Jane F., I like her. Apparently there is something unpleasant in her previous dealings with FC. I commend her for not being drawn into gossip about him when Emma asked her some questions about him before he arrived.
Emma's influence of Harriet's rudeness to the Martins has reinforced my view that she is a meddling menace.
Mod
I really think that Emma feel Jane as competition and a reflection of the refined young lady she ought to be.
@ Carol CH 21
I do think Emma does genuinely try her hardest to get along with Jane. I do think she is genuinely trying rather than putting on a front to please everyone.
I think Emma continues with Harriet because she messed up with Elton. Seeing Harriet upset Emma feels she cannot stop now for she needs to rectify what she has done, and so she must keep going and find someone else for Harriet!
@ Carol CH 24
Frank puts a lot on the unattractiveness of a reserved person, like Jane. He goes on about it too much!
@ Andrea Re Ch 19 & 20
I love reading Miss Bates talk! She says nothing and it is hilarious - Jane Austen is a genius!
Jane is definitely more mature and refined than Emma.
@ Andrea re Ch 21
See above reason for why I think Emma continues to play around with Harriet's feelings.
@ Andrea Re Ch 23
You are very wise to believe in Knightley's judgement over Emma or FC's!
I agree that Emma behaves very badly towards the Martins in this section of the book. However, she does have enough heart to feel badly about it, and at the end of the book she realizes that she behaved like a fool.@Nicole D: you say that you wish Emma's carriage had broken down. How funny! In my The Highbury Murders: A Mystery Set in the Village of Jane Austen's Emma, I do have it break down just there.
@VictoriaI am glad to hear that Emma will come to realize she has been a fool. I certainly think she is one at the point where I am in the book.
Mod
Carol wrote: "CH 19&20Emma and Harriet visit Miss Bates, who is very proud of Jane, yet how Miss Bates goes on and on chattering about everything regarding Jane. I can't blame Emma for leaving Bates home as so..."
If I had to listen to stories of the Wonderful Saintly Jane all the time I would hate her too! Also, as I recall, Emma feels snubbed when Jane refuses to share anything personal about herself. In fact I don't like that about Jane either: she is private and almost unfriendly. Of course, we find out later she had a reason for it, but at this point we're clueless.
But why would she have to share anything with strangers? Why does everyone have to know everything about other peoples' lives?
Mod
I have to disagree with you here. Emma, with all her good breeding and sophistication, is one big gossip. I, personally, would expect much more of her. She does not want to befriend her out of goodness of her heart. Don't get me wrong, I like Emma, but I wanted to shake her and give her a good scolding many times during the reading of the book.
Mod
I don't know. I've always found annoying how people want to pry into other people's affairs and it was the main form of entertainment and nothing has changed to this day. I guess I'm just allergic to that. :)
@SophI took Emma's seemingly harmless questions to JF about FC before he actually arrived as leading down the road to gossip. I realize having not ever read this book before that JA is building up to something about JF and perhaps FC as well.
I do find it odd that JA does not want get started with finding a "situation." She seems to want to put off her search. Good positions probably didn't grow on trees then any more than good and desirable jobs do now.
Mod
I think Emma's interest in FC is not really to spread gossip but I think it is just natural and expected curiosity. She has heard so much and yet so little about this FC and then to come across someone who has met him, she is bound to want to ask her about him.
It is strange that JF will not take a position. Mrs Elton finds it very strange indeed and silly I think for positions do not grow on trees.
Even if Augusta were not odious, I still don't think that Emma could have liked her since she would not be the doormat that Harriet is. Augusta is her own person (an odious one to be sure!). An ignorant insecure younger girl who will dance to Emma's tune suits her (unfortunately) down to the ground. If Harriet, despite her low position in life had been more of her own person, Emma would lose interest in her in a hot minute!
@AugustaI know if Harriet wasn't so leadable Emma would have lost interest in her and I do wish Harriet had a little more backbone.
Emma is slow to learn any lesson.She drives me crazy and I just want to shake some sense into her.I don't understand how people love Emma but hate the heroine of Mansfield Park who is very sweet and kind.Reading Emma always tests my patience and I do want to throw the book at the wall almost the whole time.
@Samanta
I agree I think Emma is gossip and just as noisy as Miss Bates but with less good will.I love Jane Fairfax and wish she was the heroine everytime I read this.Just because she doesn't want to tell her life story to Emma she doesn't like her.Plus she is the real lady Emma isn't.I agree she may be too private but respect that she wants be private.
@Victoria
Really?I will have to read your book.
@Carol
I agree with you 100 percent that Jane is a true lady and Emma is immature.
I’m running a little behind, I hope you’ll forgive me!Um… I wouldn’t say that showing an interest in someone’s acquaintance is trying to gossip, Emma was trying to find a subject that she and Jane could talk about and asking about someone’s friends is quite natural. It’s Jane’s reserve that starts her thinking that there must be something not quite right about the situation, and if that sets off her over-active imagination it’s a shame but doesn’t change her original intent. If Jane had talked to her and showed some enthusiasm about anything, even books or music, it might have led to a friendship.
Don’t forget that Emma had been kept in a very closed society, she wanted to hear about new things and Frank Churchill is a subject that means a lot to her on her friend’s behalf, but it’s not just Frank that Jane will not speak about.
Mod
Jane seemed to not be open to conversation with Emma at all right from the start. They have been acquainted for most of their lives. JA doesn't say so, but could it be that perhaps Jane senses that Emma isn't all that her?
