Jane Austen discussion

Harriet receives a rather important letter, and consults Emma, who then responds to the letter for her - her plans for Harriet and Mr Elton will continue. Mr Knightley, however, is not happy with this interference... and is not afraid to tell her so! Emma and Harriet collect romantic riddles and are overjoyed when a certain gentleman contributes to their collection. Emma’s scheming continues when she and Harriet happen to bump into Mr. Elton on a walk. Meet Mr. and Mrs. John Knightley and their children who come for Christmas. Mr. Knightley and Emma reconcile after their disagreement even if their opinions still differ. We first hear about the accomplished Jane Fairfax.

CH 8

Harriet moves into a bedroom at Hartfield (Emma's decision.) Mr. Knightley visits Emma and (1) compliments Emma on Harriet's improved manners; (2) is concerned that Harriet sees Mr. Martin being socially inferior to her. Knightley believes that Martin is the perfect match for Harriet. Emma tells him that Mr. Martin proposed to Harriet (letter) and she rejected his offer. Knightley points out to Emma that Harriet cannot be "socially superior" to Martin due to her uncertain parentage. Emma counters that Harriet's beauty alone allows her to attract wealthier suitors. Knightley points out that Emma's efforts for Harriet to marry Elton will never happen. Elton desires his wife to be from the upper social hierarchy. Knightley knows that no respectable man would ever want to marry an illegitimate woman, despite her beauty.

Knightley regrets that he encouraged Mr. Martin regarding Harriet; and is very disappointed that Emma can only focus only Harriet's betrothal and her undesirable role in it.

Why does Emma not see that Harriet's illegitimacy is a stumbling block for Harriet?

CH 9

Knightley keeps a distance from Emma, discouraged with her behavior. Emma asks Elton to contribute some riddles for Harriet's book. Later Elton brings a riddle that belong to his friend for a lady he admired. Harriet tries to understand the riddle but is lost; Emma explains that it is about "courtship." The last two lines puzzles Emma since Harriet has no wit. But she is certain of Elton's love for Harriet. Later Elton arrives and to judge the reaction of the two women to his riddle. Elton's riddle was recorded in Harriet's book, and he notices that the last two lines have been written by Emma herself. Elton, so pleased with Emma, remarks that "his friend would consider it the proudest moment of his life for the honor done to him."

Obviously, Elton is in love with Emma and not Harriet. Elton believes that the riddle was for Emma, not Harriet. The relationship among Emma, Elton, and Harriet has become a kind of a riddle. Emma wants Harriet to love Elton (but he really loves Emma.) Harriet believes everything that Emma tells her, so she believes that Elton loves her. Emma is also convinced that Elton loves Harriet. Elton feels that he has won Emma's love.

CH 10

Emma and Harriet discuss about Emma not being married. Emma explains that she has not yet met any young man superior to her in intelligence, whom she can love. Also, since she has money, she is not afraid of remaining unmarried. Also she feels she does not need children since she has her nephews and nieces to love.

After they make a visit to help the poor and sick, they meet Elton (by chance? - I think not.) As they walk, Emma stays behind so that Harriet and Elton are together. Emma breaks her shoe lace and encourages them to continue walking. She hopes that Elton will propose to Harriet, but no proposal has been made.

CH 11&12

Christmas holidays have arrived as well as the Knightleys ( John, Isabella and their five children). They will spend the next 10 days at Hartfield. Isabella is a devoted wife, a doting mother, and a dutiful daughter. She is also delicate and overly concerned about her and the family's health. Her husband, John Knightley, lawyer, is a contrast to his amiable wife. He is reserved, short-tempered, and frank to the point of being blunt. He has little patience with Mr. Woodhouse, especially over his excessive concern about food and health.

Mr. Woodhouse refers to Miss Taylor's marriage with Mr. Weston. Isabella and John are happy about the marriage, and inquires about Weston's son, Frank Churchill. Mr. Woodhouse tells him about Frank's letter to Mrs. Weston in place of a personal visit. Isabella is sorry that Frank does not stay with his father. John blames Mr. Weston for neglecting his son and sacrificing his family life in the interest of his socializing with friends and neighbors.

George Knightley is invited to dine on the first day of the arrival of his brother at Hartfield. Emma wants to make up with Knightley. George arrives, Emma is holding her eight-month old niece in her arms, and he lovingly takes the infant away from her. Emma teases him that though they love their nephews and nieces, they differ in their views about people. He then tells Emma that she should trust his judgement since he is sixteen years older. He also reminds her that she needs to be guided by reason, not imagination and fancy.

In the evening, the brothers talk with each other about estate problems, and Mr. Woodhouse talks with his Isabella about health concerns. Emma tries to change the topic of conversation by talking about the Bates women, but no one listens. Isabella, however, brings up Miss Bates' niece, Jane Fairfax, whom she occasionally meets in London. She wishes that Jane were in Highbury, for she would be a good companion for Emma.

* Why should George Knightley still be disappointed with Emma?
* Isabella and her father are very similar -- they both are delicate, and share the same overly concern about health issues.
* What is so mysterious about Jane Fairfax? Why does Emma dislike her?

Finished Volume 1!!

@Carol CH 8

"Why does Emma not see that Harriet's illegitimacy is a stumbling block for Harriet?"
I think she allowed herself to overcome this obstacle in her mind and allowed herself so think what she wished to think about her friend. She convinced herself she was a gentleman's daughter and so why should it be a stumbling block? Well, that is what Emma told herself. She is very blind to this as being a huge stumbling block!


@Carol CH 9

Yup that is exactly what happens, and what a mess! Emma is completely blind to Elton's true intentions - or rather, Emma is seeing what she wants to see, that he is interested in Harriet. And then poor Harriet begins to believe it because of her faith in Emma!


@Carol CH 10
I understand Emma wish to remain unmarried, (well, I understand it but cannot at the same time, that only being because I cannot not getting married eventually!) she really does not need to. She is well set up and will not need money. She does have the love of her nieces and nephews and she already is mistress of Hartfield. What more could she want?


@Carol CH 11&12
Although he does have a short temper, I find I really like John Knightley! He makes me laugh! He and Emma have a fun relationship actually (- I particular love how it is portrayed in the 2009 mini series. I love Emma and John in that series!)

* !Isabella and her father are very similar -- they both are delicate, and share the same overly concern about health issues."
They are very similar indeed, which is why Emma was always the clever and the quick witted one. It seems she took after her mother and Isabella her father.

* "What is so mysterious about Jane Fairfax? Why does Emma dislike her?"
Emma is jealous of Jane Fairfax - she has matured into the accomplished woman, with the skills on the piano forte and everything else which a woman should be skilled at. Whereas Emma, although accomplished, has not tried as hard as she could - she doesn't like reading and she doesn't practice the pianoforte as much as she should. Jane is almost a 'better', in terms of accomplishments, version of Emma - and Emma doesn't like competition and all the praise Jane receives, when really she is jealous.

@Parinita
Mr Elton definitely would behave differently! I wonder what he was really like when only among the men!
Mr Knightley is always the better judge ;)

Thanks Soph!!

I think the comparison of Emma and Jane when it comes to piano playing is kind of unfair. Jane is obviously a highly developed piano player, a professional even. If Emma practiced more it's not a given that she'd ever reach Jane's level. It's not uncommon for girls to feel this way anyhow, but someone ought to note here that Jane is very unusual in her musical skill.

Emma seems to see only what she wants to see about Elton and Harriet.

I think that Harriet would have married Robert and wanted to intil she talked to Emma.I feel so bad for him.I agree with Knightley he wouldn't have asked if she hadn't shown that she liked him.Knightely says he never hears better sense then form Robert Martin and I don't Robert asking Harriet is she hadn't shown by some sign that she liked him.What do you ladies think?

When Emma and Knightley are fighting about Mr.Martin and Harriet I like that Emma still had a respect for his judgement and didn't like having him so loudly aganist her.She didn't repent what she had done but at least still have respect for his judgement.(these are almost her own words)

@Carol Emma is so blind to Harriet's parentage.I don't know how with her being so snobbish that she doesn't think that is a problem.Would she marry someone who didn't know who his parents were?No.(view spoiler)[She freaked out when Elton dared to think of her and he is a gentleman with some indepentant money even.No he doesn't have as much money has her but look at Darcy and Elizabeth.Elizabeth said he is a gentleman and I am a gentleman's daughter. (hide spoiler)]What do you ladies think?

It is so hard doing a reread without talking about other things that happen in the book chapters later and not wanting to ruin it for anyone else I have added spoiler tags.


Harriet says one of the teachers at the school has gotten into her head the Mr.Elton likes Harriet so I can't but think that people have gossiped about Emma and worked out her plan and are gossiping about it.How
very embarrassing this is going to be for Harriet.

How could Emma not pick up that the riddle was for her.Ready Wit I don't think even Robert Martin would have called Harriet witty.

@Carol I agree that Isabella takes after her father.When they are talking about health and there Mr.Perry and Mr.Wingfield it is so funny.I really like John Knightley even if he is a little rude sometimes.He is homebody and loves his family even if he gets a impatience with Mr.Woodhouse.He isn't a favorite with Emma and I can understand why him sometimes being rude to her father and sister.I like how Jane Austen says his manners may have been overlooked had he flattered Emma.I agree.Only Austen does say his losing his temper with her father would still have seen many faults in him even if he flattered her.She was willing to overlook faults in Mr.Elton because he flattered her.

I do like how Emma takes such good care of her father.I do love Mr.Woodhouse he is one of Austen's greatest comedic characters I am always laughing at him.I love it when he says the sea almost killed him once.

@Parinita
I agree I don't Emma would have liked Mr.Elton for Harriet if he hadn't flattered her.She even finds him sometimes laughable.

@Marcy
I am not saying that even with constant practice Emma would reach the same standards (some people just are not as musically gifted) however I do feel like Emma felt that way. Almost, a book is mentioned, has Emma read it? No. Has Jane? Yes. or can you play this piece of music? Emma no. Jane yes. it seems to Emma she is always one up on her accomplishments wise. She has also grown up with Jane being praised by Miss Bates every week - no come on, that would get annoying, especially if she is talking about all the things Jane can and has done, which perhaps Emma hasn't, as if often the case.

@Nicole D
I agree. Harriet and Martin are very much in love and Knightley is right - he is a sensible, rational man and he would not have offered for Harriet had he not believed he had some chance of succeeding. I do feel for Martin.

I also agree about Knightley and Emma's argument - she clearly does not like it when Knightley is displeased with her (as becomes obvious later in the strong as well). His opinion and his approval of her and her behaviour is very important to her and she does not like to displease Knightley, the man's who's opinion really matters to her.

I know it is so hard not to refer forward!
I love that quote from P&P which you used as it is so true. The parentage is so important and that quote really shows how important, and also how it is no wonder Elton was so surprised when Emma even suggested an attachment to Harriet!

I know! A ready wit indeed - of course that is not Harriet!

I agree that Emma would not have like Elton but for Harriet. She does find him laughable sometimes, understandably. (That is Mr Collins and Mr Elton both being laughable....)

Funny how Jane Austen always makes vicars (did I use the right word?) the laughable lot. :)

I know! Although she doesn't *quite* always make them laughable.
Edward Ferrars wants that profession, as does Edmund Bertram.

Hm...don't know what to think of that. Wish we could just ask her :D

There are many things I wish I could ask her!

Like Soph said she had some good ones Edmund Bertrum,Edward Ferrars and let's not forget Henry Tilney.But I think she wanted to show that just because they are victors doesn't mean they are going to be good at there job and act like men of God.

Oh how could I forget Henry! Silly me!

I think it is a good thing for her to write about both, for so many used it as a source of income and as an easier profession they say a solider, rather than for the proper reason of wanting to be a man of God preaching His word. And Jane Austen knew this.

I am in the middle of ch 12 where Emma's sister and brother in law are visiting. It occurs to me that JA has such a gift for dialog where the characters say absolutely nothing, but I still enjoy reading it just the same.

You are right. She does have a wonderful skill. This you will also notice with the prattling on of Miss Bates where she communicates practically nothing!

Oh, Miss Bates! Now there's a comedic character! Even if she wasn't bragging about Jane she would drive me crazy; I think Emma is remarkably patient with her. People were kinder in those days! Knightly is so kind (later on) to her.

I always marvel that there are so few professions for men in Austen's books. I guess that's specific to upper class men? They have it almost as bad as women! No, cross that out!

@ Andrea I know it is amazing how in Jane Austen nothing really happens but they talk and travel a little then talk some more but you don't want to stop reading.

@ Marcy To be called Gentleman there were few professions you could go into church,army/navy,and the law I think were your only choices in less you were the eldest son and got the estate.You come across this in Mansfield Park with Edmund and Tom Bertram.Oldest and Youngest sons.I can't wait to group read Mansfield Park.

I so agree with Emma about men falling in love with a pretty face instead of well informed minds.One person said in chapters 1-6 about Jane Eyre's being made plain because Charlotte Bronte wanted to rebel against pretty heroines but I think she wanted a hero to fall in love with her heroines mind and not face.

Nicole D. wrote: "Like Soph said she had some good ones Edmund Bertrum,Edward Ferrars and let's not forget Henry Tilney.But I think she wanted to show that just because they are victors doesn't mean they are going t..."

I was just about to say a similar thing. Back then Church was more a profession used for making a living than a real calling. But she wanted to show both sides, the calling and the money making profession. :)

The heir took care of the family's finances and business. He took care of the tenants, providing them with livings so he could gain profit from their production (a win-win situation if the "master" was not a jerk :) ). If the family was a member of the house of lords, he would also have to participate in the parliament sessions.

Did anyone else struggle through chapter 12 (the visit of the Knightleys clan). I honestly almost gave up on it and moved to the next one because I could not stand Isabella and Mr. Woodhouse. Can they talk of nothing else except ilnesses and doctors etc. I know they are supposed to be like that but it really was a trial for my nerves.

Samantha, when I read ch 12 where Isabella and her father spoke of illness, I wondered why John Knightly married her. I spite of seeming to get along, they seem a mismatched pair In temperament. JKs calm good sense combined with a scatterbrained wife. I don't hold it against Isabella, she seems genuinely nice.

I guess opposites attract.

I wondered the same thing. I think that Isabella genuinely adores him but he might not be so in love with her. I mean, he probably loves her but I do not think his is the lasting love.

Samanta, I think you are right . Isabella loves definitely her husband JKnightly, (dotes on him) more than he does her.

However, unlike Mr and Mrs Bennett, the Knightly 's seem to get on well.

That's because Isabella and Mrs. Bennett are totally different persons. Isabella may not be very smart but she is a very good person. Mrs. Bennett on the other hand is stupid and conceited....a very dangerous combination IMHO :)

Yes, Mrs. Bennett and Isabella are different, but I thought them both silly. Isabella seems to have more wits than. Mrs. Bennett though. I made the comparison bec the Bennett's and the Knightly's seem oddly mismatched couples. Mr. Knightly is a smarter and kinder man than Mr. Bennett. He is more of a gentleman than Mr. Bennett could claim to be.

Isabella's not being so smart might of been one of the reasons John fell for her.She looks up to him and almost always agrees with everything he says.Austen herself says his temper might have improved but with such a worshipful wife it wouldn't.

I guess since his agrees with him always, JA is right. There is no reason for JKnightly to improve, but so far I like him anyway. I think he is still a good guy.

He is agreeable and perceptive, but the fact that he needs an "inferior" companion to feel good about himself does not say much good about him.

Oh dear! I think that you are right about JKnightly's choosing an inferior companion. I have never married, but I observe that this still goes on (choosing an inferior companion). Nothing has changed since JAs time.

Nope, nothing has changed :D It's only human nature after all :)

@Marcy
See this really shows Emma's kind nature - putting up with her boasting and constant annoying and trying chatter! She really is very patient and kind to her. Knightley even more so as you say.

Nicole D has pretty answered the questions about professions for gentleman and the eldest son who inherits.

@Parinita
Samanta has explained what running an estate entails brilliantly :)

@ Andrea and Samanta
Interesting discussion about John and Isabella.
Thet are definitely better matched that Mr and Mrs Bennet! I do think that they love each other even if Isabella is very different to John - as you say, opposites attract - and Isabella is very attached to John, but I do think that that he is in turn attached to her as well.

I enjoyed seeing the portrayal and interpretation of John and Isabella in the 2009 mini series - the affection between them was clear in the series, even if it is more strong on Isabella's side, and actually after seeing that and now re reading the story I am sort of seeing the relationship between them different, a little. I know when I first read it I wondered at John and Isabella, but on reading it again I do think they are well matched and I don't think John is so unintelligent to not marry without at least some affection and be trapped in a marriage like the Bennets - Mr Bennet talks of how he fell for a pretty face in Mrs Bennet, without really thinking about his actions, and clearly he regrets his marriage to Mrs Bennet as they do not get on well! Whereas, the Knightley's do get on well. Well, that is what I perceive it as, even though she is like Mr Woodhouse and John does get irritated, but to me John gets irritated with Mr Woodhouse not his wife.

I am going to have to really pay close attention to mr & mrs JKnightly. I'm intrigued by them. Although the two of them seem unlike each other, they have most likely known each other all of their lives since the Knightly's and
Woodhouse's are close. Mr. Woodhouse and his wife were probably close friends of the Knightly brother's parents when they were alive. Uh oh! I've gone outside of what JA has written at this point!

They have definitely known each other for years, just like Emma and George Knightley have. (There is a great sequence which touches on this again in the mini series, at the very beginning.)

I personally think their marriage should be given more credit that there is mutual affection. What is the quote... 'love is blind'. JKnightley is bling to Isabella's flaws or annoying part of her nature she has got from her father.

@Parinita....no problem. It is a lot of work if you do not happen to be a spoiled brat and an uncaring bonvivan :D

Not many I wouldn't say! It was normal for slaves to be treated like dirt. Darcy and Knightley are exceptions - that is why it shows Lizzy so much about Darcy; the housekeeper has such high and genuine praise about him and his treatment on tenants and servants, and this was rare.

I don’t think it is flattery that recommends Mr Elton to Emma. In a society where men and women can only get to know each other in the most subtle of ways, Mr Elton appears to be a very personable, attractive young man with a respectable position in society and a reasonable income. His flattering attentions to herself and her friend are what she would expect of someone in his situation, even if he over does it a bit at times. Emma is conscious that he is below her station in life, though that might not weigh with her if she was actually attracted to him. She does however deem him fit for her friend and it is not her vanity that is touched because she does attribute his more particular attentions to her friend, not herself.

That Mr Knightley would get to see a different side of him is not at all unusual and it is still true today, we all act differently depending on who we’re with. It’s not that Mr Knightley’s judgement of Mr Elton is superior in this, it is simply that Mr Elton is not trying to impress him in the same way. We’ve already said that Emma has never had any reason to mistrust her own judgement, so she completely misreads Mr Elton’s attentions, attributing her own causes to his actions.

Harriet is a young lady who has been brought up not to think of herself too highly and always relies on others judgements, of course she seemed interested in Mr Martin, she looked up to him but she said herself that she hadn’t realised he thought of her that way. She would have married him because she has an affectionate heart and could persuade herself easily that her gratitude was something more. I do think there was genuine attraction there but Emma did not have to do very much to redirect her thoughts, did she? Mr Knightley thought Harriet should be grateful for the favour of Mr Martin’s attentions, and indeed her birth does make her dependant on the goodness of others, but I have to agree with Emma here… Harriet is a 17 year old girl who is apt to agree with anyone with a firmer mind than her own (which is nearly everyone), should she, at 17, marry the first man who shows an interest in her? Back then, possibly she should, nowadays definitely not, but by recognising her, Emma gave her a choice she would not otherwise have had.

I don’t agree that Emma is blind to Harriet’s parentage, she sees in her what she considers to be the qualities of a gentleman’s daughter, the daughter of someone who has means enough to see that she has some education and instruction in social graces even if they don’t intend to do more for her. She doesn’t see why Harriet should suffer for her parent’s indiscretion (a way of thinking that is closer to modern standards in fact), but she is not ignorant of society and has to take all that into account when choosing a husband for her.

1. To a certain point, money can overrule birth. No one questions Emma’s friendship with Harriet because of Emma’s standing, she can’t change Harriet’s birth but she can make people in her own circle recognise her and as long as Harriet doesn’t do anything to disgrace herself or Emma, this will stand. A man with money can do even more, if his standing and her behaviour is good enough, society will overlook the circumstances of her birth.
2. A man of very high standing might well want a woman whose birthright increases his own consequence, or fortune and is not likely to find much in common with someone of Harriet’s level.
3. Emma considers a lovely face and an easy going, affectionate nature to be more important to a gentleman than brains, and I think she had reason to think that. (This might even apply to her sister).

Elton was not too high, and could have made a respectable match with Harriet if he had chosen to.


I’ve always loved the interplay between the Woodhouses and the Knightleys, it’s a very funny book and Mr Woodhouse has some of the best lines. These scenes also show the relationships between those characters very well, it’s beautifully done (naturally). I don’t find John and Isabella to be particularly mismatched, I’ve always believed they hold each other in affection… they were long past gazing at each other but they must have known each other very well since they practically grew up together.
I think it’s more the case that Isabella and her father bring out the worst in each other, and whilst Emma hears John say certain things she does not like, clearly they don’t bother her sister. They seem comfortable together at the very least and, with 5 children, he definitely can’t be said to be bored with her! Soph is right about the 2009 adaptation, they’ve put in some scenes around this which for once work quite well.

@Louise
Great insight as always Louise and I agree with you on many points.

Regarding Mr Knightley knowing the real Elton and it still happening today is true. A guy trying to impress a girl will act differently around that girl than when he is around his friends who he is not trying to impress.

Interesting point when you bring up that Emma's view on Harriet's background is very modern, Emma not wanting Harriet to suffer for the indiscretions of her father.

I agree about John and Isabella in that I also think they do hold each other in affection. When you have Isabella and Mr Woodhouse together I agree that they will highlight and bring out the worse in each other. When they are apart, which is most of the time, not so bad I wouldn't think.