The Malazan Fallen discussion

Discuss Chapter 3 only. Please make liberal use of spoiler tags when discussing other books/series-wide implications.

Holy shit! What a chapter!

Quick Ben as Magus of Dark... Hmmm. (view spoiler)[Could this mean he is Arathan?? (hide spoiler)]

Totally agree. Before we got here, I was a little bit put off that Erikson had us plow through about 100 pages of other stuff before we get a reading. Especially since we've already seen a Fiddler reading and a couple of Feather Witch readings. But the wait was totally worth it.

And it looks like the CG got himself a new fool. Now I'm just trying to grasp what it means that T"Avore would be Chain, and unaligned, which means not part of the House of Chains.

I don't remember Tavore getting anything, and that's why Fiddler apologized? The whole part of Tavore confused me.

If Tavore is Chain but unaligned, it must mean she is directly involved with TCG but not as an associate, I'm thinking of Tarot where there is a card that "crosses" the main query and is in opposition.

Ahhhh yes at the very end, I must have started snoozing! It's Tavore!

And they mentioned they were heading east. So wherever they are going has to do with TCG. The final battle? Fid doesn't know.

Finally, we get the reading. Everyone not at the reading has been battoning down the hatches, setting their magical wards, hoping that whatever comes through will ignore them. Lether has been in a magical vacuum as far as the warrens go and the reading is the catalyst that pops the cork resulting in an explosion or implosion of magical energies.

The two elementals Bugg brings along to protect Trull’s unborn baby melt to goup – though Bugg seems to think they’ll pop back up somewhere else. Curdle and Telorast are forcibly transformed into their true dragon selves – at least temporarily, before veering back into their smaller chicken suits. And the members at the reading are forcibly struck as the gods mark their players in the end game of their cosmic war. Only Tavore seems to know what that endgame actually is – and she’s not telling.

So the reading – first Fiddler locks down three cards effectively taking them out of play. Master of the Deck is already assigned to Paran – Knight of Shadow is already Trull’s unborn Son. – Spinner of death – have no idea who that is . In any case, Fiddler is able to exercise a measure of control over the outcome of the reading by mitigating some of the impact.

The caster held back, Acquitor. No one attacked Ursto and Pinosel. Even your unborn son’s card did not try forhim. The caster locked it down. As would a carpenter driving a nail through a plank of wood. Abyss take me, the sheer brazen power to do that leaves me breathless.

Sinn gets the Virgin of Death
Sceptre goes to Grub – I’m not sure what Sceptre stands for, but we do get an epigraph from the future in HoC that tells us Grub will be the First Sword of the “Late Empire” – so perhaps Sceptre is an instrument of rule?
Magus of Dark goes to Quick Ben – which surprises everyone because Quick isn’t even Tiste Andii? But Quick’s POV hints at some past association that Fiddler’s sniffed out

Magus of Dark. The bastard! You got a nasty nose, Fid, haven’t you just. And don’t even try it with that innocent look. One more disarming shrug from you and I’ll ram ten warrens down your throat.
Magus of Dark.
There was a throne once... no, never mind.

Mason of Death goes to Hedge

You’re needed,’ Quick Ben snarled, ‘to build us a road.’
Hedge stared. ‘Gods below, where are we going?’

Queen of Dark goes to Sandalath Drukorlat
Champion of Life goes to Lostara – surprisingly as she was previously working for Shadow
Obelisk – goes to Bottle – and we’ve already been discussing Bottle’s magic being associated with Burn – and Obelisk is often used to denote Burn
Orb – goes to Gesler – I’m not sure what Orb stands for exactly but I’m thinking a looking glass – so something associated with divination?
Throne goes to Stormy – So some position of authority?
Fool in Chains goes to Banaschar – Banaschar duplicitous nature is revealed
Herald of Life goes to Ublala – even though Fiddler didn’t play this card publicly
Chain goes to Tavore – even though this isn’t played publicly either – What does Chain mean – it’s unaligned so nothing to do with the House of Chains - not directly at least. I think it does have to do with the CG representing his chaining to Burn maybe?

And Brys gets King of Life – which to me is probably the most significant appointment as far as the Errant and the House vs Hold thing is concerned. It comes clear to me during this reading that the Empty Hold has been usurped by High House Life – and the Empty Throne is now no longer Empty given that Brys is King of Life. This is what has the Errant so incensed. The Empty Hold and the Empty throne has been his domain for so long now – and he just got ousted. He wanted the position Brys just got marked with. It’s why he tries to kill Brys.
Fiddler threatens the Errant with the Master of the Deck – a bluff but the Errant backs off but attacks Brys after the meeting. Ublala Pung steps in to the rescue.
This is the second time the Errant has tried to kill Brys

‘I warned you, Brys Beddict. This time, there will be no mistakes. Yes, it was me who nudged you to take that mouthful of poisoned wine—

And Tavore gets ready to move out where they will rendezvous with their allies on the borders of the Wastelands and then march east – but to where?

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "Quick Ben as Magus of Dark... Hmmm. [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I think Erikson has said somewhere that Quick Ben is somewhere in FoD. There is some speculation on some Malazan boards that Arathan is Tayschrenn - and maybe Korya Delath is Ben Delat (hide spoiler)]

Oh!

Really nice summary. The other thing that drew my attention was Tavore's comments about Paran. I was surprised to hear that she didn't know if he was an ally, and also a little surprised that she was somewhat relieved that he did not come through and that Fid was just bluffing.

Thanks Duffy - I think Tavore still has residual guilt re Felisin and she also served up Mum to the Empress in the last purge in DG. Ganoes being Master of the Deck must know a lot of this, but... silence. Tavore gets neither condemnation nor sympathy - so Tavore is left not knowing where she stands with her brother.

That makes sense on a personal level, and her guilt is only a thimbleful compared to what she will feel if she ever learns of Felesin's fate. In the bigger picture, she has had no contact with her brother, but she definitely knows that the deck now includes a House of Chains. The question is whether she knows her brother well enough to know why he recognized the House. And it appears that she does not. Interesting family.

I was disappointed with this chapter because the built up was surely good but most of the reading did not make sense to me, also se has to give his reader some slack because 9 books in and we are still figuring what means what he simply is overdoing the hidden meaning thing as far as i am concerned.

Well this reading wasn't really a divination except for Tavore's "Chain" which seems to have some significance to her - the rest was the gods marking their mortals in a free for all grab for a piece of the pie.

I really enjoyed this chapter a lot. The alternate chapters aren't doing much for me so far, but the stuff with the Malazans makes up for it a lot.

David Sven wrote: "Curdle and Telorast are forcibly transformed into their true dragon selves"

I think this is the first real confirmation of this. There have been hints, but I'm not sure with out you all saying so, I would have known they were dragons before now.

Sumant wrote: "I was disappointed with this chapter because the built up was surely good but most of the reading did not make sense to me, also se has to give his reader some slack because 9 books in and we are s..."

I didn't pretend to understand what happened or what the roles mean, but that's just sort of par for the course. I just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Here's a question that's been bothering me. Before, I had a theory that Hood's death was going to create a big change in the deck. God's were going to have to receive there own dead. And I thought that the House of Death would be out of the deck entirely. I also thought that was the favor that Hood had asked of Paran a few books back.

But the reading shows that, even after his passing (and I'm assuming this book takes place after the close of TtH), the House of Death is still ensconced in the deck. We now have a Virgin of Death and a new Mason of Death.

So how does the reading square with the ending of TtH? And even more troubling, if the Gods are tagging their new officers in this reading (and I think David is right on this), then who is doing the tagging for Death. I thought Hood was out of the business.

That's an interesting question about Hood. I had sort of assumed this was taking place AFTER TtH as well, in which case, I agree: WTF?

Did someone already come in and take over for Hood? It wouldn't be a first. Look at Shadow for instance.

I wondered if the Bridgeburners were in charge for now? There's still millions in the realm of Death from before.

I thought all the bridgeburners followed WhiskeyJack into Dragonpur..

But when Dragnipur was destroyed wasn't everyone released?

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "But when Dragnipur was destroyed wasn't everyone released?"

I'm not sure what the heck happened to them..

We probably aren't supposed to know yet. And of course I can't remember, so I'm looking forward to finding out.

From the conversations between Brood and the Darujistan Cabal at the end of the last book - it is assumed anyone who survived the onslaught of Chaos in the sword would spill back out somewhere in the world.

Also - maybe Dragnipur has not been destroyed yet as of the reading because as Duffy says nothing seems to have changed as far as Death goes. So we may yet see the results of the events of TTH pop up somewhere in this book.

Yes, here's what I'm thinking are the possibities:

The ramifications haven't occured yet, as David said.

Someone has taken Hood's place and there is a House of Death still.

Paran hasn't yet gotten around to changing the Deck, so the House of Death still exists, but it won't for very long.

Erikson made a huge mistake.

I'm discounting the last one, and we haven't heard yet from Paran. So that's still where my money is.

On FIddler.

Bugg:
Abyss below, this is no ordinary caster of the Tiles!
Abyss take me, the sheer brazen power to do that leaves me breathless

Errant:
The caster had been......frightening

So a couple of ancient gods are in awe of Fiddler. Not your average marine.

When Quick Ben was discussing why Hedge became Mason of Death, QB tells him he needs to build a road and that Tavore had told Fidder, him and no one else.

So Fiddler now is the only person who Tavore has told of the master plan.

I think Tavore still has residual guilt re Felisin and she also served up Mum to the Empress in the last purge in DG. Ganoes being Master of the Deck must know a lot of this, but... silence. Tavore gets neither condemnation nor sympathy - so Tavore is left not knowing where she stands with her brother.

....and there is Yostara standing 2 feet away with all the knowledge to crush Tavore with three words....."you killed Felisin".

So how on earth did Sinter know that Brys was in trouble and needed help? More fishing needed.

I was assuming we've skipped back to before the destruction of Dragnipur.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have known Telorast and Curdle were dragons either.

I think explanations about Tavore and Ganoes on the level of family drama are true. But Tavore clearly has picked a side in the big war - or created her own side - so there could well be some real uncertainty whether Ganoes is an ally or an enemy.

I've been waiting forever for DoD to come on Interlibrary Loan! I'll catch up soon.

Bottle knew they were dragons

from BH
'Sergeant? Oh, sorry. I was just wondering.’
‘Wondering what?’
‘Well, why Apsalar has two dragons in tow.’
‘They’re not dragons. They’re tiny lizards—’
‘No, Sergeant, they’re dragons.’

The ramifications haven't occured yet, as David said.

Actually the timelines are very much blurred after the first few books because erikson has not given us the time of burn's sleep or anything by which we will be able to assume that these events are taking in parallel or event is occurring before/after.

I know you guys finished ages ago but I'm gonna comment anyway.

The reading was really interesting and I loved how the power sort of surged through Letheras. I actually took notes so it's all in front of me. Fiddler is a lot more powerful than he wants anyone else to believe. I totally missed Tavore getting the unaligned Chain card. I wonder what that means exactly.

As for High House Death, I believe that the events here predate the end of TtH so it hasn't been reflected in the deck. That and/or Paran hasn't changed it yet. I wonder what he's up to....

Dara wrote: "As for High House Death, I believe that the events here predate the end of TtH so it hasn't been reflected in the deck. "

Yes. There is some time overlap with TTH. When those events happen from last book it has a noticeable impact at some stage through this book.

David Sven wrote: "Dara wrote: "As for High House Death, I believe that the events here predate the end of TtH so it hasn't been reflected in the deck. "

Yes. There is some time overlap with TTH. When those events h..."

Cool. I hadn't thought about it at all when I was reading it but after going through this thread I had a lot of questions about wtf was going on with the timeline. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm reading DoD for the first time, so the timeline in relation to TtH is still unclear to me. However, when Shi'gal Gu'Rull is wandering the skies in the Prologue, Erikson gives the following subtle hint that the timeline is indeed directly following the events toward the end of TtH (if I am misreading it, please do enlighten me somebody!):
"The assassin soared through the night, high above a blasted, virtually lifeless landscape. Like a shred of the murdered moon."

Also, i haven't seen anyone else mention it in this thread yet, but it's interesting that the Errant briefly described drowning Featherwitch, as proof of his new-found mojo and swagger! Whether he went all the way or not remains to be seen, but I hope it wasn't just me going "whoa whoa what???"