ROBUST discussion

I read these 5 pieces of writing advice tonight on Cracked.com and thought some Robust scribes might enjoy it, especially the idea that you don't need an MFA to write a novel.

The article starts here.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-bes...

I don't know that there are any MFAs that have written good novels. The writer of that article makes the good point that any education is good education and will be used sometime.

The article demonstrates that the writer could have received -- in fact did receive -- a whole education as a writer outside an MFA course by simply being alert to useful advice from leading professionals.

Oh, I know more than a few MFAs who have written good novels (heck, including least one Robuster), though I tend to suspect those people would have been fine without it, too.

My only issue with this is the idea that taking somebody else's idea and reinventing it with your own prose... isn't what makes a writer who they are.

The points seem valid, the sage advice sound. Then again, I nearly cried real tears for Mary Shelley, who is currently spinning in her grave, thanks to Koontz.

To me, that is the path this creates, and I simply cannot walk it.

This idea that being a writer doesn't require originality is just wrong. It takes the silly idea that there are only seven plots to its logically absurd conclusion that writers just write the same story in different words. I made my reputation on a novel idea in REVERSE NEGATIVE, which was published simultaneously by leading publishers on three continents, and widely chosen by my peers as one of the novels that influenced them.

I haven't said much about fanfic, among other reasons because so many indies rose through fanfic and are sensitive about it. So many seem unable to grasp that what a real writer does is invent characters and the doings that follow from conflict between unique characters, that it seems kinder not to say anything. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't consider fanfic flattering, I consider it theft. From "a right to write fanfic" it is a short step to claiming, as some have done, that they should have access to, for instance, the character of Sherlock Holmes without paying fees, as some kind of a right. Those folk also claim they will "do better than Arthur Conan Doyle" with the character. Yeah, right.

Daniel has made a telling point. The great writers invent the characters and create the genre. Mary Shelley is a prime example. Bram Stoker. Franz Kafka. Jonathon Swift.

Andre Jute wrote: "Mary Shelley is a prime example. Bram Stoker. Franz Kafka. Jonathon Swift.

Andre, I just tipped back the shot glass, a double that consists of 84 year old Scotch, in their honor. To highlight the seriousness of my toast, it's 10:41am my time. Yeah, an alcohol burn that early in the morning, deep within the belly.

May originality gift everyone here with their own timeless additions to this insane world we call Earth.

As for fanfic, I concur. When I was a teenager, I wrote only one fanfic piece based on my favorite comic book heroes of the time, the Uncanny X-men. After it was done, I whispered an apology to Stan Lee and put it in the trash can. (Those days, I wrote on actual paper in a typewriter. *Click-clack-click schwing of the return bar!* I didn't have my first Tandy 1000 EX computer yet.) I never did it again.

It takes courage to innovate, this I know. Some genres have a hard core set of rules, that breaking them can kill a career if one isn't careful. Like Romance. Harlequin has those requirements in a pre-designed format. It's not a Romance novel if there's no happy ending. I tried to break that formulaic grip with an original story, but I goofed not on the just format, but the reading level of the story. I was advised from an academic who was supposedly knowledgable in the field, that an 8th grade reading level was ideal for the majority of those who pick up a novel.

I will never, ever listen to that individual again. If I had the power to produce a blood curse, I would use it on him.

It's also why the 2nd edition is in the middle of a rewrite. It's only a quarter of a million words or so, but that is what's stealing the majority of my time these days.

Ah well, back to work! ^_^

As for fan-fic, my beef is less about originality, and more about intellectual rewards for my efforts. That is to say if I'm going to spend a lot of time creating a fictional world, I want my efforts to be associated with me and not with someone else whether or not I can allegedly do "better" than them or not. It feels like a waste of time to build up someone else's legacy, and we're past the oral tradition stage where this all becomes communal.**

A good example of this is H.P. Lovecraft. There's a rich, dense corpus of horror work related to the worlds, characters, and monsters he created. Many people who are familiar with the "Cthulu Mythos" attribute a lot of stuff to Lovecraft, but a lot of the stuff that fans of that sort of thing are aware of wasn't actually written by Lovecraft.

Though originality is a tricky issue. That is, there's a sliding scale of originality.

For example, Stoker's Dracula owes a huge debt to John Polidori's The Vampyre*. It's not a fanfic or a mere character reinterpretation, but it's definitely not 100% original in the "vampire as a aristocratic seductive manipulator" sense. Its an iteration and improvement on a previously completed novel (for the time character type). Again, though, not the same exact characters.

*Ironically, the proto-version of the novella was penned during the same writing session spooky story contest held by Lord Byron where Shelley came up with what would become Frankenstein.

**Is there any point where that does become a bit more valid. I mean beyond the legal sense. Five hundred years from now, is it still wrong for someone to reinterpret a character or setting, when the cultural milieu is radically different?

J.A. wrote: "**Is there any point where that does become a bit more valid. I mean beyond the legal sense. Five hundred years from now, is it still wrong for someone to reinterpret a character or setting, when the cultural milieu is radically different?"

That's an excellent question. I could go do my own version of Beowulf, as that story is as old as dirt, I believe, but then if I do it once there, and if it becomes a glorious success, I feel that any originality left in me would have possibly died of a stroke. To me, writing is a lot like sex. If there's a success among disappointments, and that happens to be a re-imagining of somebody else's plot, my brain might get stuck on it.

How many renditions of Batman can we mentally handle? I know, it's a movie and not a novel, but the premise is the same. Redone to death. I haven't watched a Batman film since Val Kilmer put on the suit. I internally shudder to think of watching another remastering of the same iconic hero.

It's the same shudder I got when I first saw Koontz adorning one of many Frankenstein novel covers at my local Barnes & Noble.

J.A. wrote: "Five hundred years from now, is it still wrong for someone to reinterpret a character or setting, when the cultural milieu is radically different?"

I watched the television adaptation of Death Comes to Pemberley the other evening. This is P. D. James' taking the Pride & Prejudice couple of Lizzie and Darcy a few years on into a murder mystery. I don't read her but she's a distinguished novelist, much more than a mere crime writer. It was successful enough, but I wondered if even P D James would have gained that big an audience for a country house murder mystery simply transposed to period dress -- were it not for the Jane Austen connection. In short, I wondered whether it wasn't more of marketing success than a literary or dramatic success.

Don't take this wrong; it was a superb production, gripping throughout, but without the Jane Austen contribution -- characters, interrelationship, mnemonic and nostalgic connections preplanted in the audience's collective mind -- it wouldn't have been quite as good, or quite as popular. But then I suspect that that is your point.

But no, I don't mind if P. D. James, towards the end of a distinguished career, perpetrates fanfic once for fun; she has already proved repeatedly that she can invent her own gripping characters. Dean Koontz messing with Mary Shelley is a different matter; there are clearly degrees of judgement involved here. And some "author" unblessed with either imagination or grammar, recycling either Austen or Shelley, is an outrage, and likely to result in an abomination.

At one point, the majority of science short works selling decently well on Amazon where all WOOL fanfic.

I can't speak to the quality of those fanfics, as I haven't read them, but still it was a slight shock.

Although I like WOOL and Hugh's done a lot to pay it
forward, in addition to actively encouraging that sort of thing, it still was a bit depressing.

If you want the ultimate example of a book that'd been nothing without being uplifting by the cultural cachet of someone else, I'd nominate Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.

I don't know whether to applaud the Seth Grahame-Smith's audacity or curse him for what is, on some level, a bit of a cheap stunt that only works because of the source.

I suspect PD James could still have drawn in a decent chunk of people with a period murder mystery. I'm doubtful to the extreme SGS could would have sold a million copies of a Regency zombie book if Austen's names and characters weren't attached.

EDIT: Also note that PP&Z contains actual Austen-penned text as well. So it's not even just a 'borrowing the setting' thing, it's a borrowing the actual words.

My next epic will be called The Bible, and it will start with Genesis. A cultural reference for everybody or your money back!

Hmm. I would hate to get in a war with you, Andre, but I'm not all that sure humans are capable of true originality. Rather, we seem to be more along the lines of re-arrangers. We muddle together story cocktails out of things that already exist. I think CS Lewis wrote an essay on that topic somewhere, though he refers to the idea as "sub-creators."

There are lots of painfully complicated ways to tackle this topic, but I suppose one worthwhile avenue is simply the fact that everyday life is full of people living out plots, both humdrum and bizarre, to the tune of millions of iterations at any given moment. That said, fiction seems to just reflect different glimpses of that swirling mishmash that eddies around us.

Christopher wrote: "That said, fiction seems to just reflect different glimpses of that swirling mishmash that eddies around us. "

We are all as snowflakes, my friend. From a distance, we all appear to be identical. Close up, however, we all have our unique differences. The same goes for our lives.

Consider this. No grain of sand is identical in shape to the other, on a microscopic scale. Now think about the dunes of any desert you care to name. To our naked eyes, it's all just sand. In the eyes of an infinite universe, they're all individual grains, each one an original shape.

Emotions, plots, sub-plots, may seem similar from a distance, even the stories that we write. Once we get to know them, that's where the originality comes from.

^_^

Perhaps "highlighters" rather than "re-arrangers".

There must be at least a few true originals. What about Shelley's Frankenstein? Can it be traced?

Creation of an artificial life form that goes rogue precedes Shelley a bit (e.g., the Golem of Prague), though I don't know how much she was influenced by that sort of thing, and to the best of my knowledge, she wasn't.

Arrogant inventors/natural philosophers precede her.

She was inspired by scientific experiments at the time concerning things like electricity and people thinking it could be used to promote life, but I don't think that's a knock against her originality per se, given we're all inspired by well, the nature of reality we're aware of (whether history, what we believe the laws of nature are, human psychology, et cetera).

Much like luck, I suppose originality is where opportunity meets preparation?

Her combination of elements though, is pretty original (or maximally rearranged). I've often argued that she was the mother of dark sci-fi and sci-fi horror accordingly, even if in some absolute paradigm sense, her work on every level wasn't 100% original (which, I'd argue is somewhat impossible, but I also don't think 100% originality is unnecessary).

EDIT: is necessary. :)

Thanks, Jeremy. I knew that much; I was hoping for some Polidori revelation as further above. I guess Shelley then stands, as you say, as a true original. (Is there a typo in your last sentence, turning an intended "necessary" into "unnecessary"?)

It seems the conversation percolated along without me. Yesterday I tried to write a response to a reply earlier in the thread stream, but Chrome chose to freeze on me and I lost a rather lengthy composition. Meanwhile, Christopher wrote something along the lines of what I'd written, only he did it better. And then J.A. made a point that I'd also hoped to make: "we're all inspired by well, the nature of reality we're aware of (whether history, what we believe the laws of nature are, human psychology, et cetera)."

One of the things I recall from my days studying how to query literary agents was the problem of writing "original stories" that somehow fit a genre or could be clearly marketed to an audience based on similar titles. Even the best-read wannabe authors don't have the greater experience of agents and publishers about what's already been published and what types of queries and manuscripts are crossing their desks. So while a writer might query a story that she thought was original and fresh, the agent could say that it wasn't. Throw in the added problem that readers are often looking for something just like the last bestseller that entranced them (or conversely, they're hungry for something they'll only know when they read it), and writers are tasked with walking a line between writing the next great vampire story that's somehow got its own original hook.

I looked at uber-agent Donald Maass's Web site several years ago. His agency had taken to suggesting stories that the agents would like to see based on their vantage point, but I believe they were blasted for trying to prescribe or dictate what stories writers would write, thereby taking away from their intellectual ownership and limiting their imagination. Yet some might argue that they were trying to increase writers' odds of getting published.

I believe the problem of originality may be exacerbated by the efficiencies of categorization and search online, especially if originality is in some sense in the eye of the beholder. Then again, there are almost an infinite combination of a multitude of story elements, and I seriously doubt that we've seen more than a fraction of them. So it will also depend on your definition of originality.

About Beowulf: he's a Johnny-come lately by several centuries. My ancestors by the second century AD had already produced Woden, a god who lived at Gudme on the island of Fyn off the Baltic coast of Jutland (in modern Denmark, look for Odense, which means "Woden's sanctuary"). All the early English chieftains and kings were descended from him. Hengist, who led the way by founding the Kingdom of Kent, which was where Anglo-Saxon England started, for instance, was related to Woden through his father, grandfather and great-grandfather Wecta who was the son of Woden. Woden was the god of the English until the Christian era, and of the Vikings (and plenty of Germanic tribes of the Forest and the Steppes) centuries into the Christian era, and is still worshipped by some.

That's why when, if, I decide to write fantasy, it will be historically based and be called FROM THE LEGENDS OF MY FAMILY. It will open simply, awe-inspiringly, with the creation by God of the first man, Jute the Scythian, called by some Adam.

Did you fellows think I was joking when I said above: "My next epic will be called The Bible, and it will start with Genesis. A cultural reference for everybody or your money back!"

Of course, the descendants of gods don't actually give anyone's money back, but the offer looks good on my PR guys, er, I mean priests.

LeAnn wrote: "Throw in the added problem that readers are often looking for something just like the last bestseller that entranced them (or conversely, they're hungry for something they'll only know when they read it), and writers are tasked with walking a line between writing the next great vampire story that's somehow got its own original hook."

That's the unvarnished truth, right on the spot. Even though I, as in me personally, feel that Vampires are overdone, saturating the market with isotopes that are both radioactive and poisonous, that I would never write one. Sometime back, in a different thread here on Robust, I went ahead and took twenty minutes and wrote a vampire short story, making an ironic twist that actually mixed it with the horrors of alcoholism.

Then I did one about the old-time vampires, that are ugly, not sexy, and are creatures that need to be killed. That was also a short story I did in about a half hour.

So I go ahead and offer them for free, I mean, why not, right? On Barnes & Noble, one of those stories has like 106 or so reviews. But my other non-vampire freebies have only a small fraction of that.

So what do I do? Write a vampire story to appease the masses and garner sales? It's not my special interest, I was writing to make points with the short stories... not gain vampire fans.

Shall I sell my soul to the blood suckers? Shall I sit in my own special place until it becomes popular again?

How can I stay original if my topic is vampires? I'm sure Bram Stoker, and several others before him, will end up waiting for me in the afterlife with baseball bats.

Like all writers, I want to write something that people want to read. Sales are a side effect of that want, not the goal. The goal for me is to have a person turn a page and enjoy it.

But then, is that goal not in conjunction with what the readers want?

My heart demands originality. In my Valinthia series, I've toyed with vampires, but only as a supporting cast, not a main character. Then again, there were also wizards, sorcerers, zombies, wraiths and the occasional space marine. I had to shake things up, to make it fun somehow. And the free novel of that series starter, Defenders of Valinthia, has remained in the top 50 to 100 in rank for more than a year on Amazon alone.

Sometimes I feel lost, sometimes I feel I'm on the path I should be. Today, I'm agreeing with LeAnn over what she replied with.

I need a drink. I'll be back later. LOL

Daniel wrote: "LeAnn wrote: "Throw in the added problem that readers are often looking for something just like the last bestseller that entranced them (or conversely, they're hungry for something they'll only kno..."

So is now the appropriate time to tell everyone that I did write the next great vampire novel? Shall I say that I read up on vampire mythology (after having read The Historian, Dracula, and even Twilight)? Should I tell you that nowhere in the promotional or marketing materials is the word vampire used because it is in fact not a vampire novel as people understand vampire novels? That the word vampire is scarcely mentioned in the novel itself? And that in fact I had to ignore worries about writing about such an over-saturated character type and write what my muse compelled me to write?

Though now that a professional reviewer has dubbed it a vampire novel (and motivated by this confession), I think that I should consider promoting it as one, risking the ire of Stoker devotees, Twilight aficionados, Daniel, and Andre.

Here's a quote from the review:

The Last Stratiote contains the relentless pace of James Patterson’s novels; the political intrigue and pragmatic characters found in Daniel Silva’s and Jeffery Archer’s books; and the historicity, philosophy, and theology of Anne Rice’s work. The novel is a reinvention of the vampire mythos, bringing new blood to the tired trope. It is infused with intensity and intelligence that does not emphasize vampirism. The vampires and mythical creatures in Rice’s books and Stephanie Myers’s Twilight series long for their humanity and glisten in the sunlight. The vampire aspects of Reilly’s novel are understated, making it more horrific. For example, the following excerpt describes an action that is terrifying because it is unexpected and almost banal: “A grin widened his features as he placed his palms flat on the sidewalk and lowered his head to lap the blood.” The brevity and simplicity of the passage strike a chord of fear as it illustrates that drinking blood for this character is an ordinary, everyday thing. He isn’t a count in an opera cape or a handsome young man brooding over his inability to love. Evil is given a face in the novel, and the monsters are real and familiar on its pages.

LeAnn,

I would never in a million years deliver an ounce of ire in your direction. I know my own sandbox, my own mental theater, so when I express my disdain for writing vampire novels, it's a product born of my own Id, nothing more. ^_^

Yes, it is always the appropriate time to reveal what you wrote. What you've done with the genre is original, illuminated by the talent that resides in your fingers. If my ire was to be tempted, you would probably have to name the novel "Dracula" and use the pen name Betty Stoker. Maybe then, but not with your work.

I think there should probably be some disdain for vampire novels, Daniel, which is why I feared sharing that about my novel. And why "vampire" isn't mentioned in the book description.

But I shouldn't be too high-minded and see if I can benefit from the perennial "thirst" for vampire tales that readers have (if you'll pardon the pun).

Any suggestions for doing that? They'll be most greatly appreciated.

I don't care what you write about, LeAnn. What I care about is that you write it well. The reviewer seems to think you did. Congratulations.

BTW, LeAnn, you should add your book to our group books. Click on ROBUST above to go to the front page, scroll down, find the ADD button, and Roberta's your auntie. It allows people to see your book, perhaps even to ask for a review copy if it looks like their sort of thing, or to buy it if they don't intend writing a review.

I'm enjoying the conversation.

I have nothing to add.

:-)

Well, as my mother might have said, the review and $4.50 will get me a cup of coffee. Actually, at this point, I'll never be able to afford a cup of coffee again given the debt I've incurred for advertising. :-)

But thank you for your congratulations, Andre, and your invitation to add my book to the group's books.

And Daniel: despite that glowing review paragraph, I have yet to sustain a top 50 ranking on Amazon for a year. So here I properly hail your creative genius, mental theater, sandbox, and Id. You're clearly doing something very right. I would join you in a celebratory drink, but I think a cup of tea for my sore throat is more in order.

LeAnn wrote: "I would join you in a celebratory drink, but I think a cup of tea for my sore throat is more in order."

I'm having a cup of Vanilla Chai Tea. (_)?

I just wish the ranking was for a 'paid' ebook, LOL.

Top 50 to 100... it varies. Sometimes I'm lucky enough to land somewhere in the top 20, but I don't keep it long.

Right now, it's on the upswing to 100 again. Here, take a peek. http://www.amazon.com/Defenders-Valin...

As of this second, it's number 80. Yesterday it was 46.

You're breaking your bank on advertising? Mind if I ask whom you're using? I have frugality oozing out of my skin where most people have sweat. I'd gladly help you land an inexpensive gig or two, if you wish.

^_^

I ran mostly online ads using Amazon but also some print ads in Kirkus and ForeWord Reviews.

I haven't yet run a Goodreads giveaway, but that's because the last time I did, I mailed 10 books and got 2 or 3 reviews.

I try to spend wisely on promotion, but it's not my area of expertise. Even though I think it's essential to spend some, lately it feels like spending the milk money on lottery tickets.

LeAnn wrote: "I ran mostly online ads using Amazon but also some print ads in Kirkus and ForeWord Reviews.

I haven't yet run a Goodreads giveaway, but that's because the last time I did, I mailed 10 books and got 2 or 3 reviews."

Out of that lot, unless you can trace specific sales to the ads on Amazon, Kirkus and ForeWard, I'd say Goodreads was your success story.

20% or 30% reviews is the right stuff already. I doubt anyone does better, and most won't do that good.

Giving away ebooks on Librarything gets you about 10% of reviews these days, and the reviews may take months to arrive, but they're value-added reviewers, so we don't mind.

Ah. I haven't been at all active on LibraryThing. I can't seem to juggle it all. Goodreads requires print books, and I would have expected the same from LibraryThing.

Actually, my best campaign came from running two blog tours. I got dozens of reviews and lots of sales.

Some of us have also had good reviews out of an annual bash thrown by Sue McLarty, our Christmas Giveaway Queen.

LeAnn wrote: "I ran mostly online ads using Amazon but also some print ads in Kirkus and ForeWord Reviews.

Those ads cost a fortune. They also depend quite a bit upon discovery, meaning somebody has to see it, like it, decide upon it, and if we're lucky, buy it.

What you need is repeated exposure that doesn't drill holes in your profits. A two part approach. Hit customers where they don't expect, and have somebody backing you up.

You don't have to go this route, but when you see the returns in the next quarter, well, let me just say that my own sales quadrupled, and tapered off only a little bit when I didn't run with this strategy in the following quarter, to measure the true effectiveness.

First Step, Go Here: http://fiverr.com/ahnold/record-anyth...

Write a 70 to 100 word blurb/pitch promo and ask him to use the 'movie voice guy' for it. He's superb at his work. Total cost if you don't go over 100 words, $5.00

You take that audio file, once done, and go to the Second Step, Right Here: http://fiverr.com/codabass/advertise-...

The regular five dollar fee gets you six spots a day for an entire month, but if you upgrade with the $20 (Total cost $25) to get aired over the other channels, you'll be upgraded to 12 slots a day for a total of three Internet channels. They will share the broadcast schedule with you ahead of time, so you can listen and hear it yourself.

So far, we've allocated $30 total. That will get you expose to people who listen to those channels while at their computer, tapping a unique market. With your ad running for a month, your book will stick in their heads.

Now for the other half, and there's no money investment there, just time and a little typing.

I can PM you seven or eight fun questions. Pretty much an Interview, if you like, but I won't post it on my obscure blog. I'll write the Interview and submit it to Yahoo Voices for publication on Yahoo.com and see where that goes. All I would need is your nod/permission to post your book cover with the article. That process can take anywhere from one to two weeks to get published, but once I have a working link (Yahoo vets everything, that's why it takes time) and I can promote it, Yahoo will promote it, and you can promote it however you wish.

People who read on the Internet will see your work. People who listen on the Internet will get told verbally of your work. Thirty Bucks total.

Let me know if you're interested, LeAnn, and I'll get those Interview questions written up. As I've promised, frugality is my specialty. ^_^

Andre Jute wrote: "Some of us have also had good reviews out of an annual bash thrown by Sue McLarty, our Christmas Giveaway Queen."

I hope that happens for me, Andre, because I certainly jumped on her offer to bundle my novels for her giveaway. Then I carefully reviewed all the blogs in the blog hop and queried the half dozen or so blogs that I thought might be interested in reviewing me. At the end of that, I got two bloggers to agree to at least look at my book. So I'm hopeful there.

And I guess that means I should thank you, too, for sending out the message beforehand. And also for originally inviting me to join Robust. You'll probably do more for my bottom line than all those ads did. ;-)

Daniel wrote: "LeAnn wrote: "I ran mostly online ads using Amazon but also some print ads in Kirkus and ForeWord Reviews.

Those ads cost a fortune. They also depend quite a bit upon discovery, meaning somebody ..."

Well, yes, they cost a fortune, but I'd hoped that the print ads were at least targeted to book buyers and readers. As for Amazon, I'm not sure which sites they targeted, despite being told at the outset that I'd get a list of advertising sites. I did get screen shots of the first ads that ran, and one ran in the online book section of a reputable newspaper.

I also sent a book to a popular political blogger, who promotes book titles on his blog (he's an Amazon affiliate). So I'm pretty sure that his linking to my Amazon book page on Christmas sold a few books.

I'll take a look at those two links. I think I can still afford $30, though at this point I'm reluctant to spend much more or I'd reconsider the book blog tour route.

Daniel, I'll send you a PM for the interview questions.

Thank you both from the bottom of my heart for your generous advice and help. I may not recover my expenses, but I'd gotten pretty bummed about the whole situation and wasn't sure how to go on. You've at least breathed new life into my work ethic. I may even be able to start writing again ....

LeAnn wrote: "Daniel wrote: "LeAnn wrote: "I ran mostly online ads using Amazon but also some print ads in Kirkus and ForeWord Reviews.

Those ads cost a fortune. They also depend quite a bit upon discovery, me..."

Oh, man, Daniel! That voice guy is awesome! I don't know how many books I'll sell, but I love the idea of having a radio commercial featuring one of his voices. My husband suggested having fun with it and maybe having "Bane" or "Arnie" describe being terrified of my protagonist, a kick-ass heroine who could eat either of them for lunch -- literally.

I don't think I have much to offer in return, but for $39, you can use Animoto to create a pretty slick book trailer with music. I've got the trailer for The Last Stratiote linked to my GR author profile if you'd be interested in taking a look.

LeAnn wrote: "I don't think I have much to offer in return, but for $39, you can use Animoto to create a pretty slick book trailer with music. I've got the trailer for The Last Stratiote linked to my GR author profile if you'd be interested in taking a look.

I'll most certainly take a look. ^_^

If I ever refer a person and they aren't awesome, then I'm not really me. I'm an evil clone. Destroy the clone, and for goodness sake, find the real me!

All joking aside, I'm happy to see your creative side flare back into life. :)

I'll have those questions PM'd back to you in a bit. Doing the Interview is going to be fun!

LeAnn wrote: "You'll probably do more for my bottom line than all those ads did. ;-)"

Happy to help.

The problem with advertising books is that the connection to reviews/sales is like two looooong, thick bungee cords. You can never tell which of your actions at this end caused the sluggish reaction months or even years away at the other end. But experience teaches that if you do enough, eventually down the line the thick, sluggish bunjee cord starts rippling. When I worked in advertising I was paid in the high seven figures among other things to make and prove such connections, so I know precisely how difficult it is, When indies who came into the business yesterday start pontification about what works, I roll on the floor laughing.

Contrast with the advertising of book the business of newspaper mail-order advertising for lifestyle items, basically gimmicks. You spend the money on advertising, carefully placing your ad in a section of the paper your target market will read, and paying the loading for it. The paper with your ad appears. For the sake of argument, we'll call it a Sunday paper. All the sales over the next week is related to that one ad (they aren't really; there is an element of trust built in readers seeing your ad week after week, name recognition being established, but never mind). You can therefore fine-tune your ad from week to week because you know what works: you can count actual sales because advertising and sales are directly linked in and limited to a very short space of time. But the actual number of examples where this is true I can count on the fingers of one hand, and probably have a finger left over to pick my nose. Duh.

Hey, there is one example of mail-order that relates to books, but the problem for analysis is that the purpose was never selling individual books, which isn't a hugely profitable endeavor, but motivating people to join a book club so that you could grab them for yourself and sell them many books, promoted to them by mail rather than expensive newspaper ads.

You've at least breathed new life into my work ethic. I may even be able to start writing again .... "

Nothing sells like another book and another book. Being an indie distorts that truth by forcing writers to do so much for themselves that traditional publishers used to do for the writer, taking away grossly, grotesquely from writing time.

The important takeaway from all this is:

Nothing sells like another book and another book.

Andre, indeed, I believe that having more than one book is a plus in terms of selling books. I've always wanted to write books, not just a book. I just haven't started writing the next one despite a promise to myself to always have something in the pipeline. It's there, I just haven't been able to focus on it. Life, and not just excuses, has been stepping in the way lately. But, hey, at least now I'm spending a bit more time on Goodreads chatting in groups with other readers, writers, and authors.

I'm not completely green when it comes to advertising, marketing, and promotion. I took courses in public relations and marketing way back when. My husband learned a lot about online advertising with his tech company a decade ago. Of course, I understand that experience is what counts, so I defer to yours.

Online advertising resembles mail-order advertising more than newspaper advertising in that advertisers can target ads directly. What online advertising has over all the other forms is metrics: Amazon not only tracks who clicks on an ad, but how long those people spend on a product page, and where they go after leaving the product page (and obviously whether clicks turn into sales). They're also able to be more flexible. Two weeks into my campaign, after none of my ads had been clicked, Amazon reviewed metrics and changed where ads were displayed.

At the end of the campaign, I got final numbers in terms of impressions and clicks. Amazon didn't tell me how many purchases were directly tied to ads, however. As you said, even if no click led to a purchase directly, the ads might still have played (and continue to play) a role in sales.

When all is said and done, I don't see how to replace word-of-mouth recommendation and perhaps a recommendation from a trusted authority, whoever that may be. A recent piece in Poets & Writers had publisher Richard Nash predicting that in the future the distribution of publishing success will be even more skewed than it is today. He believes that every two years, a series will be published that sells tens of millions of books, while millions of titles will only sell hundreds, or tens or ones. There will be no titles that sell thousands of copies.

What do you think of that prognostication?

That Nash prognosis isn't new, and it isn't news, it's just a reality that always existed. Literature is a cruel lottery. Amazon's typical KDP "author" sells zero copies, of their authors who sell anything the median (a headcount of the most heavily populated part of the sales distribution, generally but not always closely related to the average) author with sales has fewer than 5 sales. Why do you think Amazon stopped publishing numbers? Two or three years ago Amazon published some PR for themselves in which the numbers clearly showed that only around twenty writers sold more than a 100K copies. That page soon became unavailable... But that isn't new. In the days of the gentleman publishers books broke even around 2000 hardcover copies, known as the "library press run" because libraries would take near enough that number of copies of a quality novel from a top literary publisher. I of course regarded this baseline with disdain, but I learned later that I joined the fewer than fifty novelists in the world who could get their books commissioned (paid for before they were written) because from the beginning my library sales were strong. But, regardless of this safety net, the situation was the same back then, with only a few writers actually making it to 2000 hardcover sales and a future in the profession, and as far as I can make out, the situation was the same forever before that. At that time, the top half per cent of writers sold over ninety per cent of books. In the time of the conglomerates (the current Big Six, who got in their stride about 1990), that situation became worse. My own opinion is that KDP possibly relieved it somewhat, by the pure numbers of authors selling five copies each to their families.

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Nothing has really changed, whatever the indies pretend. The problem is still becoming known, rising above the herd. All that's different is that now there are scads of incompetent manuscripts by people who have zero talent, and scads of pornography from quick-buck trash, all of which probably makes it more difficult for a legitimate and serious writer to be noticed.

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That's a lot of information Amazon gave you, but then they made it all worthless by not giving you the one crucial piece of information: how many sales were made to people who clicked on the ads. Why, if their advertising works, should they give you everything else and withhold that from you? That's to show the children the pudding before locking it away in the cupboard.

Andre Jute wrote: "Nothing has really changed, whatever the indies pretend. The problem is still becoming known, rising above the herd. All that's different is that now there are scads of incompetent manuscripts by people who have zero talent, and scads of pornography from quick-buck trash, all of which probably makes it more difficult for a legitimate and serious writer to be noticed."

Bingo. My situation in a nutshell. A few years ago I told the head of the English department at my alma mater, where I'd been invited to speak to the creative writing students, that the idea of banned books week was preposterous. With the Internet, it's nigh impossible to prevent any book from being banned. I said the real problem was going to be finding worthy books in the deluge. I don't think he believed me because I still get notice from the department about its annual banned books week in which banned books are read aloud publicly.

I sometimes wonder if my sales wouldn't be helped by some sort of controversy, such as banning.

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Yes, Amazon kept that number back. I could query them to see if they'd cough it up, but I think you and I know why.

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Given the numbers you cite, I'm a runaway success story! So in a few weeks when I travel back to my graduate alma mater to impart words of wisdom to undergraduates, I'll be able to hold my head high and speak from a position of authority.

You give it to them straight, LeAnn. "Qualify as an actuary. Get the dullest but safest and highest paid job in the world. Retire to play golf. Being an artist is tough even if you're talented."

Oh, I certainly will. I've been steering my own children into interests that will lead to paying careers, while encouraging them to remain creative in their hobbies. Two of the three naturally incline toward science and technology, but one of them has dreams of making it as a singer/musician. We're still working on her.

Daniel,

I just thought I'd update you on using those Fiverr referrals. I ordered a "movie trailer voice" to read a script and then ordered radio ads on the NY radio. Then I got carried away and added an order to an AM radio station in Las Vegas. I thought it was worthwhile to try to cover both coasts, though it will make it harder to identify which one has the most impact on sales.

It was fun if nothing else! Thanks for pointing Fiverr out to me. I love resources like that.

LeAnn,

I'm glad you found the site useful. For the mild investment, you get a lot of boom and bang for the buck. ^_^

As for updates, the Interview is still under review. The moment they update the queue, I'll get a working link by the next day. I'll PM that to you the moment it happens.

Ha ha! "Qualify as an actuary. Get the dullest but safest and highest paid job in the world. Retire to play golf. Being an artist is tough even if you're talented."

I am of the opinion that great writers actually need the hardship of trying to make a life through their other talents, not through writing. A kid starting a 60-years long life as a writer has a terrible and faulty time ahead of him/her. I am thinking just as an example, about people like Kafka, giants scribbling in anonymity for no good reason, and certainly not for money. Leaving clear instructions that their ms be burned. Another curious example that comes to mind is Balzac, who all his life tried to start some business and lost money all his life. Writers need hardship, otherwise the violin does not hum.

Nah, garrets are overrated. Mind you, I used to fly a thousand miles back and forth between one of my early jobs and a college where I was still attending postgrad tutes. This was before I learned to put the teachers on the company payroll as my consultants, so that they came to me. I rented this large room over a pharmacy. It didn't have a kitchen or a bathroom or anything (I ate in restaurants on my expense account -- thanks, shareholders!, and I had a wholesale stack of sturdy brown paper bags that I would give every girl when she left as a hint to bring me something from her mother's kitchen the next time she came, and mothers competed to have me to dinner over weekends), but it was convenient to both the college's extramural faculty and the fast road to the airport. There was a handbasin, and I had a large zinc tub that I filled by letting the basin overflow, and just emptied out of the window onto the street, onto the employees of the building on the opposite corner, who were the Internal Revenue, which fixed my relationship to them for the rest of my life.

I feel tired just thinking of how much energy I had then. Okay, I'm for my Nordic air strider. Ciao.