Classics and the Western Canon discussion

So here we finish the backstory which led Gwendolen to the spa at Leubronn. But just as we finish her backstory, we go back to Deronda's childhood and growing up. It seems an interesting approach to novel writing, giving us lengthy flashbacks (hardly flash in these cases; what do you call a lengthy flashback??) of both the main (to date, at least) characters.

And both Gwendolen and Daniel have met people of the opposite gender they are, let's say, interested in. Gwendolen's ends abruptly, at least for the moment. Daniel's is just beginning -- where will it go?

Oops, sorry -- Goodreads grabbed the post before I was finished with it. This is editing, in case you got the original post sent out.

One thing that doesn't quite ring true to me is Grandcourt's character. He doesn't seem to me the kind of man to have a long-term mistress and four children by her. Does anybody else see an issue here, or do you think Eliot presents a persuasive picture of him?

Also, do you think Gwendolen over-reacted to Lydia Glasher's news? After all, she didn't even stop to confirm it, or ask Grandcourt about it. She just fled.

One does wonder what she would have done if Grandcourt had proposed the day before and been accepted. Would she then have stuck with her engagement, or would she have broken it and fled? We don't of course know, but it's fun to speculate, isn't it?

Yes, it is an interesting way to introduce us to the characters, having these grand flashbacks. I think I enjoyed Gwendolen's backstory a bit more than Daniel's childhood background, maybe because I liked Gwednolen's conversational habits - her sarcasm and quick comebacks were quite amusing.

I had not thought of whether Grandcourt's character was not in line with having a mistress and four children. But yeah, now I have some doubts about it. His mannerisms seems a bit cold and calculating, he doesn't have the loving personality which I think someone might need to find themselves swept up in an affair and have that many children with. I can see him having the character of a man who will get what he sets his mind to, but to have a mistress and then produce not just one child, but four, seems a bit of a stretch.

I did wonder why Gwendolen did not check into Lydia's story. I thought that she, like Grandcourt, would be willing to go after what she wants no matter who says what about it. Perhaps she had strong inner doubts about marrying Grandcourt all along, even if he would be able to provide for her all that she dreamed of. And so, having this woman come forward with very good reasons why Gwendolen should not marry Grandcourt was the reason she needed to give in to her doubts about marrying him, so she didn't feel the need to check out the story.

I think if Gwendolen had already accepted his marriage proposal and then Lydia had shown up, Gwendolen would have kept on with the engagement. I think she doesn't like to draw attention to herself in an embarrassing manner (such as when she didn't want anyone to know she was pawning her jewelry, or that her family's finances were in trouble), and to break of such an engagement would have been an embarrassment.

Linda wrote: "I think I enjoyed Gwendolen's backstory a bit more than Daniel's childhood background, maybe because I liked Gwednolen's conversational habits - her sarcasm and quick comebacks were quite amusing."

I did also. She seems, at least so far, to be a more interesting person than Deronda. Though there is much more mystery about him. But he was basically just growing up a normal, fairly uneventful life, which isn't all that interesting to read about, whereas Gwendolen was gambling her money at an exotic gambling palace, becoming impoverished, gamboling in a social setting worthy of Austen, almost getting married and then coming crashing down to despair finding out that her almost betrothed had feet of clay, or worse. It made, for me as for you, much more interesting reading.

But I get a sense that the Gwendolen story is the appetizer, and Deronda will be the main meal, more meaty and substantial. But time will tell!

Hmm… Mr. Gascoigne seemed a bit aware of some rumor(s) but dismissed its/their relevance; one wonders if indeed it is the rumor of Grandcourt having a mistress and children. However, how is such a rumor easily dismissed? As for Grandcourt, I suspect he uses people for his needs but gives no more than is necessary (as with his alleged mistress). Convenient…no need to find another. I suspect he did not have a particularly warm or engaged relationship with the mistress beyond physically. Now perhaps he is wanting an heir and wants to find one suitable (and attractive) and thus now interested in settling down with the spirited Gw…only to have her dash off. What an inconvenience and certainly not handy for his plans. I can see it is possible. On the other hand, maybe it is a large ruse by Lush…maybe Grandcourt has no such history (perhaps not even that interested in women, per se)(beyond obtaining an heir) …ah..tis a ponderment indeed!

Everyman wrote: "Linda wrote: "I think I enjoyed Gwendolen's backstory a bit more than Daniel's childhood background, maybe because I liked Gwednolen's conversational habits - her sarcasm and quick comebacks were q..."

I think the two stories are great foils for eachother, one filled with emotional upheaval and excitement; the other profound and steady. I love the way they connect and anticipate further connections if other Eliot works are anything to go by.

Don wrote: "Those are some thought-provoking prompts! I've been noodling the question about how persuasive the Grandcourt character is for a while now. The character is somewhat similar to that of Godfrey Ca..."

I'm thinking we are being kept as much in the dark as Gwendolen about Grandcourt. It makes him seem more intriguing and villainous.
Don, you mentioned 4 children (and a mistress) being a bit much to keep hidden, I agree. But I've noticed in books from this era that there are characters with mistresses and children where their existence IS common knowledge but is ignored on the basis of 'if we don't see something bad then it doesn't exist'. So maybe, more people do know, yet choose to ignore this fact.

Yes, as Lisa wrote, perhaps people choose to ignore the possible…or probable....existence of "unpleasantries". Such as in Book 2, chapter 13, it reads (re Mr.Gascoingne's ponderment before speaking with Gw): "Gossip is a sort of smoke that comes from the dirty tobacco-pipes of those who diffuse it: it proves nothing but the bad taste of the smoker. But if Grandcourt had really made any deeper or more unfortunate experiments in folly than were common in young men of high prospects, he was of an age to have finished them. All accounts can be suitably wound up when a man has not ruined himself, and the expense may be taken as an insurance against future error. This was the view of practical wisdom; with reference to higher views, repentance had a supreme moral and religious value." Hmm…so does this mean as long as a man of high prospects has not financially ruined himself, there is hope for a good match yet as other indiscretions may be swept under the rug? Also, this does not seem to account for four children still existing, or does it? Or is the referenced "expense" the keeping (away) of the children? Upon talking then with Gw, Mr. Gascoigne is much relieved to hear that Gw has not heard "the gossip he had heard". Of course, news did not travel like it does today so obtaining information (or accurate information) was more difficult in those days.

Lisa wrote: "I think the two stories [Gwendolen and Daniel backstories] are great foils for each other, one filled with emotional upheaval and excitement; the other profound and steady.."

That's a nice comment. I like the idea of the contrast between them. I think you have a point that the difference enhances the interest of each; having both have the same emotional and intellectual values would have been much less interesting.

Lisa wrote: "But I've noticed in books from this era that there are characters with mistresses and children where their existence IS common knowledge but is ignored on the basis of 'if we don't see something bad then it doesn't exist'. So maybe, more people do know, yet choose to ignore this fact. "

And we see that very specifically in Daniel's tutor's comment on the "nephews" of priests.

Lisa wrote: "Don, you mentioned 4 children (and a mistress) being a bit much to keep hidden, I agree. "

But let's not forget that this was an age without telephones, Internet, and the like, and also with a much less mobile population. So maybe it was easier to keep secrets then, especially since apparently for most of the time she was still married (her soldier husband presumably off fighting abroad some of that time and with no easy way to keep tabs on his wife back home).

And let's not forget that even quite recently most Americans weren't that aware of President Kennedy's or MLK's mistresses. And Eliot Spitzer (sp) was able to keep his prostitution activity quiet for a long time! So maybe it's not all that unrealistic.

Everyman wrote: "One thing that doesn't quite ring true to me is Grandcourt's character. He doesn't seem to me the kind of man to have a long-term mistress and four children by her. Does anybody else see an issue here, or do you think Eliot presents a persuasive picture of him? ..."

I seems to me, as has been stated earlier in this thread, that Grandcourt is somewhat cold, but I don't believe that he has four illegitimate children. In fact, I suspect that Lush is Lydia Glasher's husband and father of the four children based upon the following passages from Chapter 12:

"The habit of fifteen years had made Grandcourt more and more in need of Lush’s handiness, and Lush more and more in need of the lazy luxury to which his transactions on behalf of Grandcourt made no interruption worth reckoning. I cannot say that the same lengthened habit had intensified Grandcourt’s want of respect for his companion since that want had been absolute from the beginning, but it had confirmed his sense that he might kick Lush if he chose— only he never did choose to kick any animal, because the act of kicking is a compromising attitude, and a gentleman’s dogs should be kicked for him.

But what son of a vicar who has stinted his wife and daughters of calico in order to send his male offspring to Oxford, can keep an independent spirit when he is bent on dining with high discrimination, riding good horses, living generally in the most luxuriant honey-blossomed clover— and all without working?"

Eliot, George; Graham Handley (2009-01-29). Daniel Deronda (Oxford World's Classics) (Kindle Locations 2386-2393). Oxford University Press, USA. Kindle Edition.

I think Lush's motive is that he doesn't want to lose his very satisfying position as Grandcourt's companion, a position he would very likely lose if Grandcourt married Gwendolen.

As to Grandcourt, he's cold and aloof and calculating, not only in his dealings with Gwendolen, but even in the way he treated one of his dogs who particularly wanted his attention but whom he ignored. Then there is also the example of him announcing that he is not interested in Miss Arrowpointe and her money, but rather will marry Gwendolen, but does not say that he loves her when asked by Lush. So, he wants to marry, not for money, although he apparently needs it, and maybe not for love. So what's his motive for deciding to marry Gwendolen? Is it because she's like to be more adventuresome? Maybe he likes the thrill of the chase? I guess we'll find out.

Everyman wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I think the two stories [Gwendolen and Daniel backstories] are great foils for each other, one filled with emotional upheaval and excitement; the other profound and steady.."

That's ..."

Thanks

Everyman wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Don, you mentioned 4 children (and a mistress) being a bit much to keep hidden, I agree. "

But let's not forget that this was an age without telephones, Internet, and the like, and a..."

I don't think it's unrealistic, but not necessarily easy. Your point about lack of communication technology is good. I was thinking about how fast gossip travels in small towns. I wanted to highlight that we often choose what we do and do not see especially around immorality.

Elizabeth wrote: "Everyman wrote: "One thing that doesn't quite ring true to me is Grandcourt's character. He doesn't seem to me the kind of man to have a long-term mistress and four children by her. Does anybody el..."

Lush is actually the father of Lydia's four children? That's a tantalizing theory!

I was interested in how Gwendolen's mother gained and lost her source of income. I think the money came from Gwendolen's father. Someone, Gw's father? mother?, other family advisor? chose to invest the money with Grapnell and Co. I can't find a reference to them on the internet, but the following passage made me think of a more recent example (Madoff:

We have seen, too, that certain persons, mysteriously symbolized as Grapnell and Co. * having also thought of reigning in the realm of luck , and being also bent on amusing themselves, no matter how, had brought about a painful change in her family circumstances;

Eliot, George; Graham Handley (2009-01-29). Daniel Deronda (Oxford World's Classics) (Kindle Locations 2838-2840). Oxford University Press, USA. Kindle Edition.