Fantasy Book Club discussion

July is here, so let's kick off the discussion with an opener of where the idea for this book originated. Bearing in mind that some people are still reading, this post will not contain spoilers.

Once, there was no market, no genre for "fantasy." Tolkein and a few classics and fairy tales was all there was to read. Until Ian and Betty Ballantine began the Ballantine Fantasy Series, most imaginative tales were considered for children, or epic classics written in antiquity.

I chose to write fantasy, then, although everyone said I was nuts, where would I look to have such a lame effort published?

I chose not to listen. I knew my calling, I thought. Therefore, the start of the Wars of Light and Shadow rubbed out of a simple annoyance of mine: that the trend in stories always seemed to favor the tall, fair guy as the hero, and the villain as shifty and dark. I decided, first, to turn this on its head, but not in the usual fashion. Because the second thing that bugged me, as storyteller, was that most fiction made the bad guys BAD over simplified their motivations. So I started with this little seed, that I'd tell of a conflict from a different angle.

I was, at that time, about nineteen years of age, quite wet behind the ears, and had stacked away some four novel length stories that (thank gosh!) have never seen daylight. First I felt I needed more life experience to be able to write with originality - so off I went, traveling, to expand my viewpoint. Africa, Russia, Europe...on money earned during college years.

Next came the research - as the world and the story slowly gained structure, I was not content to make up "the facts" - so add in several bouts of offshore sailing in small boats, the study of fencing, encounters with historic re-enactors, deep wilderness experience, and then, hit the books, because I realized I needed serious research to make the "mis-match" of periods line up with plausibility, since the world I was staging was not, quite, applicable to a specific time period. As the series progresses, Athera unveils to be unique for a reason, and the mis-match of earth based time period technologies had to line up and work, in amalgamation.

So I read about wars - from the Romans to roughly the moment when gunpowder changed the ground rules, and altered the way that wars were conducted. I was hip deep in the middle of this bit when the foundation shattered out from under me, without any warning. I attended a black and white documentary film on the Battle of Culloden in Scotland, when, in a day, the last strength of the Scottish clans was broken on the field by English gunnery. I'd gone to the film to deepen my research - and came out in tears, shaking with shock - and this moment shifted the course of this story forever.

Up to this point, I'd been to the library - read fiction, history, studied the requisite courses for school, done the tap dance with Hollywood, and stayed utterly naiive. Bonnie Prince Charlie was the romantic royal, and everything fitted in accord that Might could make Right, and the one great battle could solve everything, or, drive a culture to tragic extinction.

Nothing up to then had prepared me for the grim reality of war itself - that there was nothing about what occurred on Culloden that was not a colossal waste, a massively ugly razing of human life, with no cause, no romance, nothing pretty or redeeming - just a bunch of poorly armed, poorly fed, miserable people being marched out on forced service by incompetent, arrogant idiots, then made to stand all night in the sleet, on low ground, in a horrendously stupid position, to be shredded by British guns, which opened fire and flung wide the gates to the tragedy. As the officers fled, and no one GAVE THE ORDER TO CHARGE, they stood and died - and died - and horrendously died...which created the ground for the highland clearances, a people forced to emigration by coffin ships, or sent into forced labor, and a mass extinction of a way of life unique to itself. Read John Prebble's books on Scottish history for the unvarnished, not glossed over with sugar Facts. There are not enough tears.

I came out of that documentary ANGRY. Because fresh in my mind was every bit of research just done, and seen in a fresh light, with the veil torn off - NO war in all that history was any more just then the other...either the defeat was a wipe out by superior numbers, a trick of tactics, an advantage of ground, whatever it had been, the history we had been fed in school glossed over the actual facts. Sweetened them. Gave them a ring of heroism and goodness that truthfully was nowhere in evidence. History as written by the victors, fed and fueled with the imagination of just about every bit of fiction/film/entertainment in which wars were fought for "the good".

Fantasy, my chosen field, was the blackest kettle of them all, with the Noble Hero and the Desperate Fight for the Good to Triumph over Evil. All of the wonder of the Eddas, and the Grand Battle clearing the way for a new age - the very glory of Tolkein's great work - became tainted in an instant. I'd seen the Great Lie, that anything but sorrow might come of looking to death and battle to solve a conflict.

The cookie cutter story I'd meant to tell now revolted me to my soul. I resolved, then, to rip off the veil. To fight back against the conditioning we are fed from our earliest childhood, and restore the grim measure of emotional feeling behind the false mask of battle heroics.

Worse, in visiting places far from my home turf, I learned too much, saw too much, understood too much - that there were not one, but many angles to misunderstandings, and that one man's concept of "rightness" was not the full picture, and the most scary prospect of them all, that anytime a belief held by anyone became absolute - they became but a tool for ANYTHING that talks that walk...that a lack of questions and healthy doubt makes a poison that can be made to exploit without conscience. And that great wars and great wrongs have occurred on false rhetoric, and the motivations beneath were, in most cases, not worthy of the trust by which men gave their lives, and for which women and families lost husbands.

So this story altered, right then, and became something deeper and far more complex, and for which Curse of the Mistwraith sets the sweep of the stage.

I will continue this theme in another thread, where the Idea Evolved, but later, since from here, there would be risk of spoilers.

If anyone wants to comment on the state of our entertainment and the slant of literature in this light, fire away, the discussion is open.

I'm so glad the header for this popped up in my Goodreads list (which I am still trying to understand). Thanks for a fascinating look behind the story, Janny.

Some of our goals have marched in tandem; this is not the appropriate place to blatter on about my own, except to say that one goal has been to look at reasons why the Good and Noble War still work.

Suddenly getting a visceral feel for death is a sobering experience, isn't it? It's amazing how much it changes your outlook on every part of life. Suddenly your perspective on issues is shifted an incredible amount. Stories you read before & loved become trite. Very sobering experience.

Sherwood wrote: "
I'm so glad the header for this popped up in my Goodreads list (which I am still trying to understand). Thanks for a fascinating look behind the story, Janny.

Some of our goals have marched in ta..."

A wave to Sherwood, whose books I've enjoyed. Why do you think the Good and Noble war still works? Whose definition of Good and Noble merits the killing field?

Jim wrote: "Suddenly getting a visceral feel for death is a sobering experience, isn't it? It's amazing how much it changes your outlook on every part of life. Suddenly your perspective on issues is shifted ..."

Jim - it wasn't just making it real - it was the shattering of the glass - that the whole fabric of entertainment, history, the setting of the "facts" had GLORIFIED and made noble - what, when I looked at the histories just read - was not one whit glorious, or noble, but out and out, one side (usually) slaughtering wholesale, and the pens of history cleaning up the mess with a high shine gloss of justification.

The powers motivating what happened were not pretty, and the action taken to do battle, even less so. That the brilliant victories, seen without the "spin" were not brilliant, but down and dirty and ugly.

That two sides to every story actually had many sides, and the oversimplified "truth" we were given was devolved to just one, and presented to the next generation in ways that perpetuated the insanity.

Answering that precise question was the impetus behind current project (last book of which shortly to come out)--very eager to get the rest of your books and see how you engage with this, and related, questions.

Scott's 'Grandfather's Tales', a copy of which I had from my grandfather who told them to me, do make the Scottish wars seem noble, rather than the petty bickerings of a bunch of egotistical, backstabbing children with more pride than sense. It is a shame. John Wayne continued the tradition for me.

I always liked Heinlein's message about how wonderful politics are - even when they're disgustingly corrupt. Talking is better than war. War = failed politics. He did lapse into the same party line propaganda with many of his books, especially Starship Troopers. Haldeman's response, The Forever War, was perfect.

Janny, I, too, experienced a similar ripping off of the veil myself several years ago about many issues I had been brainwashed about in school. It's very, very painful and very, very hard to see things as they truly are and yet live in a society where a majority of the population is still ensorcerelled--is that the correct spelling?!--and actually wants to remain ignorant, to the peril of future generations.

My writing changed then as well. I can no longer produce anything that doesn't reflect my strong political beliefs in some way. The project I'm working on now is perhaps the most politically radical I've ever undertaken, and I hope I can pull it off without it reading like a screed! Hehehe, we'll see!!

Jim wrote: "Scott's 'Grandfather's Tales', a copy of which I had from my grandfather who told them to me, do make the Scottish wars seem noble, rather than the petty bickerings of a bunch of egotistical, backs..."

Jim - the astonishing bits are always left out - where the misunderstandings rooted.

The society and system and mores of both cultures were not playing by the same ground rules - so the checks and balances of what was bluff, what was counting coup for young men jostling for marriageable position in an established society - was interepreted as a bloodletting offense on the other side of the border. Then those "misunderstandings" were made rigid, and became the tool for unscrupulous politics...it goes on. And the squabbling...then the betrayals of certain inviolate traditions....to see into the Scottish history in a fascinating retake, read the works of John Prebble, who wrote on the massacre at Glencoe, and in depth, on the Battle of Culloden - from accounts, factual letters, and impeccable research into the times. It reads much like Dee's book, here, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee An Indian History of the American West, and rips that veil, and yet, the histories taught follow the same old groove, disregarding a decentralized examination of events.

I hate that tunnel vision short sighted presentation, beyond question. It is what sent me to Africa, Russia - when the iron curtain was still in force - and the orient - to see for myself, not through the eyes of opinion's not mine. It has deeply influenced me as a writer, no question about that.

Leslie wrote: "Janny, I, too, experienced a similar ripping off of the veil myself several years ago about many issues I had been brainwashed about in school. It's very, very painful and very, very hard to see th..."

Leslie - it's quite the pit to watch out for, that writers can fall into political agendas...I try not to have one. Because every time I came on that strong, wow, it closed and blindered me to alternative views. Polarization in any form is scary, because it cancels change and alternatives. Puts a block on understanding. There is always another way, another view, another angle - and to fix on one is to lose the opportunity of a wider perspective.

I look forward to seeing where your next book takes you, on the strength of your genuine convictions.

Yes, it sounds similar to the American West's history with Indians & settlers.

Wars have to be fought occasionally, just like toilets have to be repaired. The latter is a more appealing job.

Jim wrote: "Yes, it sounds similar to the American West's history with Indians & settlers.

Wars have to be fought occasionally, just like toilets have to be repaired. The latter is a more appealing job."

Wars happen, you are right, when people are unwilling to stand strong and defend a fair stance firmly enough, when politics starts slipping, or exploitation is rampant. That allows in all sorts of pressure, and exacerbates problems to the point of explosion.

I happened, once, to be on a book tour in Australia the very moment that the outbreak in Kosovo occurred. Here I was, a US citizen, thrust into a country where foreign policiy did not make that nationality popular, and worse, I was put in front of angry interviewers for prearranged publicity. One was quite memorable - she said, dripping contempt, "How could you sit here and discuss "escapist" books, and take my time doing that, when this bloodshed in Kosovo is so much more important?" and the mike, on live radio, was shoved in my face.

I told her, most calmly, that imagination was not the least bit escapist. That if humanity had used imagination without boundaries, and wanted to solve that problem, and had been willing to spend as much time and resource looking for solutions as hating, that a shooting war would not be happening.

Fantasy is one way to erase the box, start again, reconstruct, look further - and redefine the mythscape of old beliefs and take them into to new territory.

The interview changed from that instant - it had never occurred to this person that imagination can open new hope.

Admittedly, fantasy books that do this are rare - but they are there, and always possible, and one of the least appreciated values in the genre. That when LIFE (real) is awful or grim, imagination is one step away from envisioning a different way of seeing.

Everything has changed, first, because someone had the guts to imagine it. That is a powerful tool.

Why we keep reaching for the old, bloody weapon is actually - in my take - a lack of willingness to imagine another path.

I marvel at how you were able to maintain your composure and give such an inspired answer to what was essentially a missile lobbed in your face! I don't think, no I KNOW I could not have pulled it off. Bravo.

Leslie wrote: "I marvel at how you were able to maintain your composure and give such an inspired answer to what was essentially a missile lobbed in your face! I don't think, no I KNOW I could not have pulled it ..."

Ah well, Panic has its uses!

I rather liked the quote Tolkein used, too, that I was unaware of at the time. When folks accused him of being 'escapist' he asked if they'd ever taken a warm bath, or a massage to ease their tension... that reading a book was a different method. In fact, statistics show that reading lowers blood pressure. Amen to more books!

Janny - great response. Along those lines I've always enjoyed this speech from Dead Poet's Society and think it applies to all literature not just poetry -

"We don't read and write poetry because it's cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion. And medicine, law, business, engineering, these are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for. To quote from Whitman, "O me! O life!... of the questions of these recurring; of the endless trains of the faithless... of cities filled with the foolish; what good amid these, O me, O life?" Answer. That you are here - that life exists, and identity; that the powerful play goes on and you may contribute a verse. That the powerful play *goes on* and you may contribute a verse. What will your verse be?"

Humanity would seriously suffer if we only directed our efforts toward the "practical".

Libby wrote: "Janny - great response. Along those lines I've always enjoyed this speech from Dead Poet's Society and think it applies to all literature not just poetry -

"We don't read and write poetry becau..."

Libby - thank you for posting this! What a lovely concept: that the powerful play goes on, and we may contribute a verse! Cool!

I liked the statement I saw once, from an author's interview, roughly - that stories were our own experiences, made as a gift to somebody else.

Even all the practical advances get made because somebody saw what was lacking, and imagined a different myth-scape. We ARE victims, as little children, and story gives us our first wings. When we become adults, we create those wings for real, and reach - and the best moments, coming, are still story being made. I deplore the concept, that adults "should grow out" of fanciful imagination and "come down to earth" - meaning, stick our heads in the dirt, and never envision what has not been made manifest, yet.

For one, I think, the fantasy field has scarcely tapped the truth of its most profound potential.

I didn't quite know where else to post this, but I have two questions about particular details of the story. Perhaps you should start an Ask The Author Thread, Janny?

First--is the lyranthe a "real" instrument? In other words, is there a real-world equivalent? It looks like a lute to me.

Second--For the illustration of Arithon and Lysaer on the first US edition cover, the style of their clothing looks very 16th century/ English Renaissance, but when I read the first chapter of COTM, for some reason, I saw the captain of the Briane in 18th century British navy gear. The question: did you choose a specific period in European history to base Atherran fashion, technology level, etc.?

First--is the lyranthe a "real" instrument? In other words, is there a real-world equivalent? It looks like a lute to me. "

O! o! That reminds me. Somewhere later in the book you reference an E major chord. My husband's a musician (as is most of my offspring) and plays guitar. I was somewhat skeptical given the string setup on the instrument represented on the cover. So, I'm interested in the answer to Leslie's question as well.

Leslie wrote: "I didn't quite know where else to post this, but I have two questions about particular details of the story. Perhaps you should start an Ask The Author Thread, Janny?

First--is the lyranthe a "r..."

Libby - your wish will be granted, I'll start the thread, directly.

To answer your questions on the lyranthe. No, it does not exist. I play three, at one time, four, varieties of stringed instrument - so, I wasn't just groundlessly fantasizing.

Here's the insight you want: The lyranthe has fourteen strings, in seven courses. If you have ever seen a 12 string guitar, or a mandolin, you will recognize "a course" - as a double set of strings, spaced to be fingered together.

For a 12 string guitar, the lower FOUR courses consist of a low and a high octave. Struck and fingered together they sound an octave chord, which adds tremendous richness to the sound. The top two courses are unison, which gives the treble notes a clear, sweet punch.

I borrowed a bit of that: figure that the five courses set above the fingerboard on the lyranthe are strung in octaves for the lower strings, and treble, in unison. That accounts for five courses.

If you have the US cover in hardback, you can clearly see, there are two bass courses strung OUTSIDE the fingerboard. These two courses would be octave set, too, but never fingered. They are "drone strings" used to augment a bass chord OR set up a dissonant. The drone strings would act like the drones on a bagpipe - except - for a bagpipe, you cannot switch keys. The bass and treble drones are static, throughout. For the lyranthe, you have a choice of WHICH drone string course you strike - so the drone or the dissonant could be offset from the melody, major or minor, fifth or seventh, or octave, in effect, a drone choice in a different key.

The back of a lyranthe could be flat, or curved, lute like or guitar like - depending on the maker.

For Jon: the finger board is fretted. The striking of the drone strings - optional - therefore, yes, a clear E chord is possible. More, like dropped tuning for a folk guitar, the musician could adjust the tuning of the drone strings to favor the key of the music being played. So many shadings of nuance would be possible to accomplish, on an instrument of this design.

If you were a luthier of today - (maker of guitars) the horror would be in "creating" a neck strong enough to handle the tension of so many strings! Our instruments now have steel reinforced rods to manage this - don't ask me how Elshian did her work... that is another chapter!

Back to Libby's observation on the clothes.

I mixed and matched periods to create the styles and design of everything on Athera...there is a reason why, the story will unfold it.

The research behind why was meticulous, however. Because of what's to unfold later, certain things would have progressed on different timelines that you know them on earth. If you see all the images for Atheran dress, yes, much of it would look somewhat Renaissance - but not precisely.

Here's why: there is no mechanical sewing, OR exotic materials in the clothes. I had to pick a period that lent itself to hand crafting. No whalebone hoop skirts, or other silly stuff. These people, most of them, live practical lives. There is some style, but comfort and ease of fabrication frame the key. (Yes, Lysaer has a more complex doublet, that's his character, to use style to lend presence).

If you have ever played around in a costume warehose, or worked with re-enactors, you quickly discover which clothes WORK if you have to wear them about, and which are just silly fripps that you trip over or rip. I've played pipes, run full tilt, carried crates, and even, hiked out the bowsprite of a period rigged topsail schooner, to untangle rigging in renaissance style female dress....for wearing all day, in heat, cold, and exertion, they just plain work. As comfortable as jeans and a T...so I designed Atheran styles to follow that line - if you read a reference to "leathers" on a clansman or a rider, those are different - if you've every ridden or walked/followed a pack of hounds on foot, or berry picked, or bushwhacked on a hike through thorns and brush, cloth tears and you get utterly ripped to the skin. Skirts would be a ruination, as they'd catch on EVERTHING. You'd soak the hems in every bog...therefore, figure on "leathers" as drawstring or lace trousers underneath, and a lace on "chaps" made of hide, tightly fitted, over top. Practical protection that would last out the rigors of riding or rough country travel. Cloth on Athera is all hand loomed, hand spun, retted or made from plant fibres or shorn fleece - so - labor intensive to make. No one in their right mind would rip such stuff carelessly - too costly to replace!

If you have EVER been to sea (yes, I have) and worked offshore on an open deck (yes, I have) in all weather, you quickly realize the practicality of the British officer's Great Coat - oiled wool repels water, and if it gets wet in cold weather - wool still insulates when soaked. Also, when soaked, in hot weather - you sweat through it, and effectively, it becomes like swamp cooler style air conditioning...and it breathes when you sweat - so, possibly, yes, the officers on Briane would wear that sort of dress. They would not be ruining it with salt water, and rigging doesn't tear stuff up - so the elaborate tailoring for a sleeved great coat would be worthwhile to produce for that sort of setting.

On Athera itself, I'd see "naval dress" as some sort of caped coat, like the Inverness rain capes - ever seen one? They are like a sleeveless "great coat" but sewn to the collar is a cape that covers the back, and the arms to the wrists, split at the front....it sheds the rain straight to the ground, and avoids the runoff from the main hem. There's a hood that buttons on, which can be removed in fair but cold weather.

That was my thinking on the mix matched styles for the clothes. It follows course for all the research...ships, weapons, clothes, housing - all of that...do you want a separate topic, too, for the research? I spent YEARS on every bit of it - grin - nice to see it's not wasted.

Thanks, Janny, for that detailed answer, and it was me, Leslie, not Libby, who asked.

Leslie wrote: "Thanks, Janny, for that detailed answer, and it was me, Leslie, not Libby, who asked."

Leslie - my apologies for misspeaking your name. Obviously I was on an author cloud, with no feet on the ground here, to be paying enough attention! Thanks for correcting me.

Janny,

What an insanely talented woman! Not only are you an incredible writer and artist, but you are a musician as well! OMG!!!

Have you ever thought about commissioning someone to actually make you a lyranthe?

Leslie wrote: "Janny,

What an insanely talented woman! Not only are you an incredible writer and artist, but you are a musician as well! OMG!!!

Have you ever thought about commissioning someone to actually..."

Leslie! You've made me turn very pink, and look, you've scared everyone away (grin).

Can't help it that I like to do stuff...can't keep my hands out of trying things...and that really, nobody ever told me I couldn't until it was too late to get me to listen. If you practice anything with dedication, you grow the connections to do it...there is proof the brain never stops developing.

People could do anything if they wanted to, badly enough.

The history: when I was nine, my Dad brought home a very cheap guitar (I mean the kind you find for fifteen bucks at a junk stall - pure horror!) He said to my brothers, with me overhearing - whoever learns to play it gets to keep it. We all dug in, me at the bottom of the heap. By the end of a month, I was still at it. There you go. Led to long strings of long nights jamming, after music festivals, and now, a loft full of nicer axes and several other instruments that just sort of stuck to me on the journey.

The pipes happened because I'd heard the hometown band play at the church fair growing up. Then, when I sent myself to Scotland on my hard earned bucks, post highschool, I went through the pass at Glencoe and HEARD THEM PLAYED AS THEY WERE MEANT TO BE - it was over, then and there. Came back, found an instructor, and started in. I was extremely lucky enough to be passed along to one of the very best instructors in N. America (a Scottish ex-pat, at the top of his game). Went much farther than it might have, at that caliber of opportunity.

If somebody ever made me a lyranthe, darn, I'd have to learn to PLAY IT! Not much room in the practice schedule for that, truth to tell. If I had my over the moon wish, it would be a recording studio for electronic music...not just to write the music, but the SOUND, up from the wave forms.

I have tried to get various armorors interested in making the sword, though - mostly because it's so darned difficult to DRAW when the angles change, out of my head...I've spent days drafting that item, over and over. It would be fun to have that made, and to light it like a sculpture.

Janny wrote: "July is here, so let's kick off the discussion ...

Nothing up to then had prepared me for the grim reality of war itself - that there was nothing about what occurred on Culloden that was not a colossal waste, a massively ugly razing of human life, with no cause, no romance, nothing pretty or redeeming - just a bunch of poorly armed, poorly fed, miserable people being marched out on forced service by incompetent, arrogant idiots, then made to stand all night in the sleet, on low ground, in a horrendously stupid position, to be shredded by British guns, which opened fire and flung wide the gates to the tragedy..."

FWIW I looked up the battle and the documentary. Here are links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_o...

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The...

It's on "instant play" if you're a Netflix member, so no need to wait for a disk. It looks like a good film of a really horrid episode.

The nonfiction documentary film that I saw was shot in black and white. I could not view the link to Netflix to tell if it was the same one, or not.

Let's try a Netflix nonmember link here:

http://www.netflix.com/Movie/The-Batt...


And let's try IMDB here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057982/

Likely that is the film, though I'd have to watch it again to be sure. It's black and white, and the date it was made was several years before I watched it (at college).

It blew a lot of conventionally complacent fuses. I was changed forever.

I like the metaphor of piercing, tearing, ripping the veil. It reminds me of the Veil of Maya from Hindu and Buddhist mythology, simply stated as the veil between Truth and Illusion, Mind and Body and other dualistic archetypes. And, what stands between is created to be seen through. In Eastern thought the veil is lifted during enlightenment, never ripped or thrown off.

I'd suggest that tearing or ripping the veil is a peculiarly Western action. Get the thing out of the way and see clearly what is on the other side. Can one truly be enlightened without going through the process of learning to see through the Veil?

I do not think it possible to remove the veil, all our prejudices, character defects, compromises, rationalizations, experiences and so on prevent this. The veil remains, even if we fail to notice.

This is all just on way of looking at the unanswerable Great Questions we all struggle with. But, I'd like to suggest the Veil is a theme that begins in Mistwraith. Even that word is suggestive, 'mist' and 'wraith' both interfere with seeing. The princes and other characters are placed in situations which requires them to look through many Veils, with varying successes. I am wondering how the wraith entities see through their veils. They seem at this point to be purely evil. But, given the rest of this story, I suspect this may not be the case.

I also get a sense of non-dualistic thinking in this introductory book. I have been on quest to rid myself of Western dualism for some time, and it ain't easy. So often we have to look and see if the cat is dead or alive. But, a strong thread in this book, I think, is what I refer to as gray thinking. There is no right and wrong, this or that, good or evil, there are only many choices among many possibilities, many ways through the forest—some paths, some not. I wonder if the Celtic/Northern knots on the book covers a clue to this. It seems likely that the pre-Christian Celts thought in non-dualistic ways.

I wondered about this when encountering the series title: "Light and Shadow" rather than light and dark. Shadows are many shades of gray. I thought. "this book isn't going to be black and white", unlike LOTR where good vs evil were made absolute. LOTR was more about finding the will and courage to do what was right, less about what was right.

I also wonder about Shadow in the sense of Jung's shadow archetype. I'm not sure about this yet, but the 2 princes seem different enough that it is a possibility. I am looking forward to seeing if this becomes more of a theme as I read the series. Arithon in particular seems constantly struggling with "owning his own shadow". In contrast Lysaer seems more certain of himself at this point.

About war: I gave up the notion of war as noble, glorious, heroic during the propaganda campaign spit out by those in power during the Vietnam war. I swore then never to put myself in that position to enhance the power of others. I will only fight to protect my own. Though as a physician, I have had a lot of experience with the horrors of trauma, I have not had direct experience with full fledged war and have only an armchair understanding of its consequences to mind and body. Given that war has been common in virtually all cultures and at all times, I think it must have a genetic basis which enhances species survival. Still one hopes that as civilization evolves we can get over or sublimate such genetic pressures. OTOH, with war becoming waged from air-conditioned, clean, well lighted places using robotics, one wonders if there is any hope at all.

As a black girl sung in that great musical, Hair, "I ain't dying for no white man." If everyone said this, resisted the brainwashing, there just might be an end to war, speaking idealistically.

Kernos wrote: "I like the metaphor of piercing, tearing, ripping the veil. It reminds me of the Veil of Maya from Hindu and Buddhist mythology, simply stated as the veil between Truth and Illusion, Mind and Body ..."

I like your thinking. And yes, these books are very Jungian. I studied to be a Jungian analyst for ten years, and was immediately struck by the many similarities.

I agree with Sandra: I think Kernos has captured the very soul of this book. What you call a veil, I've heard Janny refer to as a layer. I think there is a multiplicity of veils in this series, with Curse just being the intro. The opposite of duality, as Kernos says.

I agree with another thing: if more people said "no" to THE MAN, thinking for themselves, then the world would be more enlightened.

Kernos encapsulated Lord of the Rings brilliantly, yes! It's about making the hard choices to do what is right; this story takes it further - it asks 'what is right' and quickly shifts that to a matter of 'which perspective are you looking at?'

Sandra - that is very flattering; I have never read Jung, brilliant though his work is said to be...how nice you see a relationship. The influences and mix that made this story came from so many angles, recombined, it's hard to know how the mix 'settled' into a philosophy that seemed to fit. And is still fitting; there are more veils to go, yet.

Suman - and truly. I've said if everybody on the front line individually chose NOT TO PULL THE TRIGGER and if the 'authorities' stopped being belligerent and put as much time into understanding the rage beneath a violence - a difference would become a stepping stone to deeper understanding. I've long admired the model of Iroquois council: nobody moves until everyone present agrees. To arrive there, to reach a heartfelt compromise that works, understanding would be a prerequisite.

War happens when we stop asking intelligent questions, and it happens because aggressive rage was left unattended until too late. If rage = a reaction to feeling helpless or powerless, then the issue of at the root: why people don't believe they have a fair shake leads to toxic aggression/the insane 'solution' of bloodshed which is no solution at all.

When the people hold their lives as less valuable than the 'issue' and they nobilize it by 'sacrificing themselves' for the betterment - the capacity to build through imagination and creative solution has been thrown away, not once, but many times.

What constitutes the 'meaning' of a live, and when does the quality of life and self-esteem become so eroded that a 'cause' outweighs that value - there is, I think, a critical equation, and when that line is crossed is the trigger point.

Some will fight to survive; some will fight for a lifestyle (freedom/against oppression); some will fight for a 'concept' and those are the truly scary - when life means so little, and a concept overshadows value -- the human being so fixated becomes the loaded tool of whatever FITS that concept with no capacity left to question - when doubt is absent, THEN the truly insane behavior triggers mayhem - when people will die just to make a statement.