Goodreads Librarians Group discussion

Greetings,

We have an unusual history with this publication here at Goodreads. We originally listed the above referenced work here early in 2012 as a work-in-progress before it had been self-published anywhere. Our intention was to garner feedback for revision. Little did we know that the bad reviews and ratings it garnered then would plague the work through numerous revisions since that time.

Separately from that issue, though related to it, we are now planning to re-publish the same work at Amazon and elsewhere, with its cumulative revision history, which includes dividing the book into two (2) separate titles (the second of which has never been listed at Goodreads and will not be for some time yet), as well as a final go-round of revisions, under a new title with a new copyright date and new ISBN. When a new title is given to an existing book, Amazon policy requires a new ISBN and a new book listing, and likewise with a new title the copyright office requires a new copyright, even if the book were identical (though in this case it is not). The purpose of the new title is disambiguation with countless titles of the same name, and an idea for a better more accurate title which better prepares the reader for the storyline. The purpose is not expressly to escape its review history, though this is desirable and we believe only fair.

We intend to take the old title out of print and off-sale everywhere prior to the release of the book under the new title, including here at Goodreads insofar as that may be possible.

Our concern and question is whether we can make a clean or decisive break with the previous listing, its reviews and ratings. From what I have read here in the forums, the impulse seems to be to "combine" the book with the new title with the previous edition(s) under the old title. I have found some talk of this not being the case if the text is significantly changed, but there is no definition of what constitutes a 'significant' change.

Here, we have an instance where the original work has been divided into two separate books/titles, the first of which is the current listing under the "Conundrum" title, which has itself been revised and republished half a dozen times over the course of 2012/2013. Now, we intend to re-publish the current Amazon/CreateSpace text under a new title, new ISBN and a 2014 copyright, using the same cover background image. We intend to note its edition history and previous title everywhere it is published, including on the title page of the book, but we don't want the plethora of grossly unfair reviews of the early work-in-progress or preliminary revisions to plague the new release. Can this be done?

On Amazon, my understanding is that it will be treated as an entirely new book with zero reviews, as if it were new born, not born again. Is there a way to make this the case here on Goodreads?

I apologize for the thorniness of this issue, but we are stuck with it. Note that, unlike the first go-around here, we will not be listing the new title here until well AFTER it is fully published and on sale in every venue as a new book, and the same goes for the second book in the series (which was originally part of the work-in-progress listed here). We don't want to make the same mistake here again, but neither do we want to burn in hell forever on account of it.

Thanks.

the author

_Anonym, when you say that the book will become two books, which of these scenarios do you mean? (a) The new book tells roughly the same story as the current book and will be followed by a second book which is a sequel to the current book, or (b) the new book tells the first half of the current book's story and will be followed by a second book which tells the rest of the story from the current book?

Let me clarify, this is a series. The name of the series will remain the same. The name of book one in the series will change.

However, there is no "future tense" to their "becoming" two books. They were separated into two books before being self-published in any commercial venue anywhere, and only book one in the series has been released. Book one has also been revised many, many times since its original release in October of 2012 on Amazon and elsewhere.

Book two (part of the work-in-progress originally listed here at Goodreads) has never been published on Amazon or any other venue, though we are offering it for sale as eBook at our web site only. It will not be listed here in any shape or form until it is fully published and up for sale in every commercial venue including paperback (we don't want to make the mistake we made initially with the 'work-in-progress).

Yes, though book two does, my editor tells me, stand alone self-contained as a book in itself, it is plainly intended to be continuation of the story line in book one.

Thanks.

Sorry, Cait's question is super important and perhaps the way to slice this Gordian knot. Your response did not adequately clarify the issue, especially since you've only linked to one book, Conundrum (is Conundrum the new book? the old book? can you provide the link to the old book?)

Let's call the initially posted 'work-in-progress' book WIP. Now WIP is being re-released in some form with a new title, let's call the new book WIPpier. On top of that, you're turning the whole thing into a series, and the next book out will be called WIPpiest. If someone were to read an old copy of WIP, would the reader be spoiled for WIPpiest? Or would WIPpiest contain a new plotline? And yes, I know there's been some substantial revisions here, but we're talking broad strokes here.

Think of it another way. If a character died at the end of WIP, does he now die at the end of WIPier or WIPpiest?

There are a few solutions to this problem, but they all depend on the answer to Cait's question.

FYI, good luck keeping your book under wraps. Any user can upload a book at any time. If someone reading the ebook of book 2 from your website decides they want to review it, they can (and will) create an entry here whenever they want to. Then the cat will be out of the bag. If I were you, I'd try to control the information flow from the beginning and enter the book as you want it to appear here in some way that is consistent with Goodreads policies.

Z-squared, I think you and I should both bow out of this discussion and leave it for rivka. The change log history on the existing book records has raised some questions for me which I have flagged for Support and the author appears to be upset by your polite request for clarification; I think we should let employees handle this. (The author's website cache appears to have the answers to the one book/two books question we raised: several one-book ARCs were released, but final publication was of two books (book one published, book two recently released as an ARC).)

_Anonym, I hope your cataloging questions can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Good luck.

Cait wrote: "Z-squared, I think you and I should both bow out of this discussion and leave it for rivka. The change log history on the existing book records has raised some questions for me which I have flagged..."

Thank you, Cait.

I don't see how "WIPier" and "WIPiest" can be considered polite by any standard. They are insulting, plain and simple.

I bring the matter here because I have found in the past that is the only way to get "support's" attention.

Again, thank you.

_Anonym, attacking librarians who are trying to help you is not a good way to get the answers you are looking for.

It is a good way to get banned from this group though. Please consider that a warning.

But to answer your original question: If Conundrum has a new edition coming out under a new title, then yes, once it is added to the Goodreads database (whether by you or any other Goodreads member) it will be combined with the existing editions. That is long-standing Goodreads policy. As the author, you will be able to mark the new edition as primary and will be able to mark any out of print editions as being out of print. Existing editions and reviews will remain.

(See http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/31... and http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/32... for more details on those two issues.)

_Anonym wrote: "... that neither Amazon nor any other venue shares. ..."

If by venues you mean booksellers, that's correct. Booksellers only list the product editions that are for sale. And self/indie published authors usually have product pages they can edit on bookseller sites.

Goodreads is not a bookseller and does not have product pages. Just book data pages from which members can catalog and review books.

Amazon actually combines quite a lot of items inappropriately with regard to reviews.

rivka wrote: "_Anonym, attacking librarians who are trying to help you is not a good way to get the answers you are looking for.

It is a good way to get banned from this group though. Please consider that a warning..."

I see, and I suppose it doesn't matter to you that your 'librarian' is the offending party? You stick together no matter how insulting or offensive your fellow 'librarian' is while "trying to help?" Or you just don't bother to read what is going on, or care about it? I expect this librarian to be censured formally, and reject this blaming the victim entirely.

Are you the "support" person to which Cait refers, or am I still waiting for final word from "support?"

A policy of "combination ueber alles," with reviews remaining lumped together for two radically different books, with separate titles, is a disservice to all of your member readers as well as this author. Is there a mechanism to appeal this misguided policy?

I know I probably shouldn't get involved, but everyone has been very polite to you so far! Librarians are just trying to explain what the existing policies (which they cannot change, and to which they must adhere) are. If they sound condescending, it might be because a lot of things seem to confuse a lot of people, so they're just trying to be as clear as possible.

If you re-read these posts with the assumption that they are trying to help (and not the assumption that they are trying to stand in your way) I think you might agree. I think the problem began because GoodReads doesn't work/doesn't have the purpose that you thought it did, and you're frustrated by that. But I'm sure things will work out if you're patient. The Librarians are here to help!

_Anonym wrote: "Is there a mechanism to appeal"

Contact Us link on the Help page.

And since you appear to be unable to stop attacking librarians, this group is no longer open to you. The Contact Us link above of course remains an option.