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M.K., Creator And Moderator 🎉
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Jul 14, 2015 04:35PM
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So I suggest to prayer about it and c how I feel. (;
Thanks for asking tho Haley!! Its great we can discuss such(;
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I read this when I was young and this is what sured my decision on the Bible. please check it out. Thanks friends(;
Definitely something to think about more. I never really studied the differences in the standards. We use a bunch of different standards, mainly KJ, NKJV, NIV, and ESV. This article has really opened my eyes though, I'll be looking into it in the future.
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I am glad I am Greek and I have the Greek version of the Bible! I feel really blessed (Though sometimes it's difficult to understand Ancient Greek!)
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Oh I could understand why(;
There is a girl at work (another dept) comes by gets tea and says Yes I am sanctified today. But I hear of no other Christian words out of her mouth. I want to understand her but not sure of her intentions such as I do not quite understand the meaning.
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I will. I keep bouncing back to her every time I try to keep my distance. She just had a baby Sept 9th. Not sure if she is coming back to work. Hmmm. Research time!! My Lord is leading me to His Word!
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I want to share something about our devotional theme for this week. Prayer changes things!I didnt know where to post my thought so I post them here :)
When I saw MK's message about the devotional theme, some verses from Nehemiah came to my mind.
Nehemiah 2:4-5, 8b
Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.
Nehemiah prayed before speaking to the king and God helped him get the amswer he wanted!
How many times do we pray before we speak? Maybe we pray sometimes when it's a really importan speach... But do we always pray to God to give us the right words?
Some other verses that came to my mind are from Daniel.
Daniel 2:1,11,18-19
And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him....
...And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
....That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
The king saw a dream. None of the wise people of his kingdom could understand this dream. They told him that only gods can understand it and they do not dwell with people!! But Daniel and his friends prayed to God and He revealed the dream and its explanation to Daniel!
Our God hears our prayers and He answers! He dwells with people! He loves people! He is not up there looking down to us.. He wants to help us! Daniel prayed! He didnt think "Oh Ive explained dreams before! Thats my thing!" No! He prayed to God who knows everything!
We should pray more! We can't say: "Oh I know the Bible so well! I can answer by myself this question."
No! We should aske Him to give us the righy words to change the lives of others!
Real encouragement to read those words of Scripture from Nehemiah and Daniel. What struck me, having only read that chapter from Nehemiah two days ago, was the phrase in verse 8: "And because the gracious hand of the Lord was upon me..." (NIV) Those words, "gracious hand of the Lord," appear later in the chapter as well, and adds flavour to Alkmini's comment that God hears our prayers and answers.
Amen!He always listens to us and he answers our prayers!
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Wow MK! You made me smile! I will post it tomorrow (its midnight here!)
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Ok!! That'd be great!! Haha(: Have a great night!! (:
My wife was reading 1 Thes 4 where Paul talks about the "rapture" aka "caught up" and asked me a question. It's interesting that a Google search for "dead in Christ shall rise first" has the exact same question as the second hit:"If the dead are already in heaven, how do they rise up?"
I have my own theory which I've never heard anyone else espouse, so I thought I'd share it here:
God is outside of "time". I think we can all agree to that. So the idea of "the dead are already in heaven" is only applicable when you add Time into the mix.
So from our perspective, there's a sequence of events:
1) Person dies
2) I go on living for # years
3) We get raptured and meet them in the air OR see step 1.
But again, God is outside of time. There's doesn't actually have to be a step 2 for God, or for those who are with Him after dying. We don't go to some middle place like the Old Testament faithful, called "sheol" or "the grave" or "paradise".
So my theory is this: death and rapture occur simultaneously for a believer.
From a believer's point of view:
1) I die
2) I fast forward to the rapture
There is no "dead are already in heaven" for 2,000 or 3,000 years or however long until His kingdom is established.
I think that theory jives with scripture.
God desires an intimate, daily relationship with you in which you experience His experience His presence, trust His Wisdom, and rely on His strength. (see Isa. 58:2)
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I am currently studying the book of Deuteronomy.I really like this book!
God saved us too from "Egypt" where we were slaves but we still walk back amd forth in the desert because we keep forgetting-just like people of Israel did in Deuteronomy-what He has done for us and we do not trust Him enough!
I love this book because I see myself there. I am so glad that Jesus came and died for me and now I can stand before God as I am! And because He came, we can all talk to Him just like people of Levi did in Deuteronomy. It's great!
I love how the whole Bible talks about Jesus :)
In the Old Testament, all I see, is how wonderful it is that Jesus died for us!!
We sin all the time but now God doesnt want to destroy us because Jesus is our redeemer... We fall all the time but He helps us stand up again. We keep getting lost in the desert but He reminds us that this is not our home! We are citizens of heaven :)
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Hi guys :)So I am still studying Deuteronomy and I want to share something with you again.
deu.15.11.kjv
For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
So if you are reading or watching the news, you know that in Greece, and in Europe in general, we have a problem with refugees. Thank God, most Greek people are really generous and give food and clothes to them.
When I read this verse, I remembered all these people. They are in a foreign country, living on the streets. We have to 'open our hand wide unto them'! May God have mercy upon them!
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Matt- I was just reading through here because I'm really interested in theology and I have my own answer to your question- When we die, our spirits (souls) leave our [sick] bodies and either go to heaven, or to hell. But everyone faces God face-to-face where He talks about every aspect of our lives. After that, the person goes to heaven, to live with Jesus.
Then when it comes time for said rapture (I prefer to call it the second coming, just because there is huge controversy as to whether it is believers or unbelievers who get "taken")
Now to the believers (saints) who are "raised up" here is my answer to your question.
When the believers are resurrected, their spirits enter their "resurrected" bodies which, to clarify, are identical to your "pre-resurrection" bodies in looks, but they are not tied down to sickness and ailments by sin, but you are now given your new resurrected body, which is free of the said sickness. So to be "raised up" is to have your spirit placed in your new body.
I do believe that God is outside of time, but I don't believe I would consider it biblical or accurate to "fast forward" right to the second coming and not see Jesus face-to-face first.
Many believers have died and come back to life and none of them have reported being "fast-forwarded" to the second coming. Rather, all of them first met the Son in heaven.
You should read Revelation and ask the Lord to impart revelation to you :)
I agree with Zoe on this point. To tell the truth I haven't looked into this that much, but I will definitely be studying it more. :)
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Mary Kate wrote: "Well I can see both points. However I do agree with Zoe. But I do not hold the belief that people can go to heaven or hell and come back. That is something never put into the Bible and if we honest..."Umm... Jesus was raised from the dead.
So was Lazarus. Not to mention Tabitha. And that man's son. Also what Jesus told the disciples to do (we fit under this category as well, as believers) to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons." (Mattew 10:8) So, really, raising from the dead is a HUGE part of the Bible.
Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that you misunderstand their meaning of 'striving no more'. What they probably meant was that they don't have to worry and wonder about being saved, because they know that they are, and when you are truly saved, you do things for Jesus just because you love Him. "Striving no more" doesn't mean that they would no longer evangelize or live for Him, etc. because they would do it all out of being saved and their love for Him rather than "striving"
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Okay first of all I think you and I are misunderstanding one another. I NEVER said I did not believe in the resurrection of the dead- for if I didn't I wouldn't believe in Jesus' resurrection and therefore I wouldn't be born again :P
That was not my point at all. Honestly I believe that if a person was close enough to God that in the Lords power he could raise a body from a grave at any given time- no doubt! I believe miracles happen every single day- even including the one where the heart stops and yet life flows back info them! God works every day!!!
My point and belief I stated was that I didn't believed a person went on to the afterlife and could come back. As in going to heaven or hell. I just can't believe such. Its okay if that's your belief I was saying, however that I personally wouldn't base my beliefs on other peoples words. See if you base a belief on the Bible- that makes perfect sense!! because the Bible is the Word of God- inspired and written by him through his servants- No doubt!! However people's words are not nearly as trustworthy and therefore my thought was that to base your belief off of another's man's words would only prove to confuse people and therefore fail. The Bible is the only thing we should base our beliefs on.
Honestly we need to tone this down a bit because its seeming to sound like two Christians arguing and when that happens it only confuses everyone else. Never a good thing. Haha xP
Nonetheless thanks (:
I'm sorry. I wasn't confused before, but I am now. In Christianity the definition of death is your spirit leaving your body (John 19:30)
You spirit itself does not die. So once your spirit leaves your body, it immediately goes to either heaven or hell. There is no in-between or "momentary spirit death" where your spirit is dead before you "wake up" in heaven or hell.
And I personally have met an amazing, God-fearing person who is the most genuine, God-like person I have ever met who has died and come back to life. And they went to heaven and saw Jesus himself. Then they came back to life, when being fully dead a moment before, with their spirit fully in heaven. People who were clinically proven dead have had their spirits come back to their bodies and breathe again. It is scientific fact that they died. And why would a person who had actually experienced death lie about what happened? They either experienced the terror of hell and had their life kicked back together once they were alive again and wouldn't lie about it for fear of going back to that place because of their lying son. Or they went to heaven, saw the glory and majesty of the Son and were so awed and amazed and purified that they would want to tell their amazing experience to others. What motivation would they have to lie?
If there spirit didn't go anywhere after death, as you say, they would have no idea that they had died. They would wake up without a clue of their death, because, as you say, their spirit wouldn't have gone to heaven or hell, and there is no in-between.
What makes you believe that spirits can't return to their bodies after having been in heaven?
All of the saints who will be resurrected in that day, are you saying too that they will "fast forward" to the rapture? That they won't get to see heaven before that time? Didn't you say before that you didn't agree with that? What makes what you're saying now any different?
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Zoe, I feel like a lot of what you're saying is personal opinion, at least with people who've gone to heaven and come back again. I believe that is possible of course because anything is possible with God, but I don't believe those who say they've seen Jesus. The Bible says you can't see God's face and live, it's too much for our sinful human bodies.Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
John 6:46
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
I believe people can go to heaven because even John was allowed a glimpse of heaven. Also, I'm admitting that some of this is also my personal opinion and I completely respect what you're saying. :)
Haha ok guys.And MK- I'm not attacking lol. This is a discussion topic. I came here so I could discuss the Bible and my beliefs. I'm not attacking you I'm only saying why I don't believe the same as you.
And Tamara- that's a huge controversy about seeing God because Moses said that he saw God and so did Isaiah. I haven't studied much into that but it really fascinates me and I want to understand it more. But also we're talking about people who are already dead seeing God, not about them seeing Him while they are alive.
Sorry MK. Just read over my message and I feel like the first part was totally fine and I was just saying my thoughts on the subject and my understanding, but looking at the last paragraph I can understand how maybe it was a bit too forward. I meant it genuinely and didn't realize how you might take it as accusatory. I had no intention to attack you.
What I meant by not seeing God is primarily His face. Moses and Isaiah may have seen Him, but not his face. I think we can agree to disagree on people seeing God in heaven and coming back to tell about it. I would love to see some verses that back up what you believe on that point though, otherwise I'm inclined to stick with my convictions.
Oh, and I do believe that people already dead have seen God. I just don't believe those who have died and come back to life have. Sorry about the confusion. ;)
ya sure! I'd also love to see verses that you back up your beliefs too :)Here are mine :)
Luke 16:24-31 27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead (speaking of sending Lazarus, who is in heaven alreadya), they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction!"
Psalm 16:10 "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol"
and about your latter comment, okay. But those who die and come back are fully dead before they rise. I believe that they see God just the same as those who don't come back, because they are all dead. There is no lesser kind of dead than another. But I respect your opinion just as I respect mine. I just don't believe that what you are saying is truth. However, I would still love to see verses that support what you are saying.
Okay, I don't think I mentioned that I believe people can die, go to heaven and be brought back. That's definitely proven in the Bible. But I don't believe that they will see God's face till they are called home for eternity. I listed two Bible verses earlier which I back my claim on, basically it says no man can see God's face and live. That means if you're brought back to life you couldn't have seen God's face for you could not live. I said this before, but my belief is that it would be too much for us in our sinful state to behold God's face. I don’t know how the Bible verses you listed back your own claim though, could you possibly expound for me to clear up any confusion? And I say again, this is something not very clear in the Bible, so a lot of it comes down to personal convictions. :)
Ok :)Two of the verses are talking about coming back from Sheol, and the other one is where the rich man is asking for Lazarus to go back to life from heaven in order to warn the rich man's brothers.
And with the verse you quoted, I suppose it is just a difference of understanding it, because to me, I would think that that verse talks about in life. But then they are dead and in heaven (or hell) and can see God/Jesus, but are sent back to earth for some reason to continue living. But they were fully dead before and had the same privileges as other dead people living in heaven, to see the Man who fills all heaven with His light and love.
"no one can see God and live" I wonder about the more detailed context of this verse, because Isaiah claimed to see God, as did many others, and we can't doubt them just as much as we can't doubt this verse in the slightest. We need to put faith in the Bible, even if it seems confusing or contradictory, because really it's not. It's just us the readers who don't understand and can read it in wrong contexts. So with all of this in mind, I haven't fully studied into the face of God and living thing, but I do plan on it! :) One thing I know, is that there is God and His Face, and then there is the Angel of the Face of God (confusing, I know :$) who is mentioned several times in the Old Testament. It's very confusing about who this Angel (with a capital A) is, but fascinating once you start to see him written all throughout the Bible. I suppose that this Angel of the Face of God could have something to do with all the "no one can see the face of God and live" and "I have seen God" confusion.
But anyways, yeah. That's a bunny trail haha. Just something to chew on I suppose.
But I feel happy to agree to disagree on the death subject. We've all placed down our beliefs, debated, and stuck with our own convictions. I'm happy to walk away now with a handshake and friendly smile. I am sure in my beliefs and I'm sure that you likewise are. So we can call a truce? ;)
Haha, okay, truce! ;) I get what you're saying even though I can't 100% agree with it. I do agree though that only God can fully understand these things and that we're just looking through a glass darkly. Thanks anyway for your insight, I really appreciate it! :)
God is all knowing. He knows things we can't even fathom. Beautiful things I bet! But we are to believe Him and even though we don't understand we must continue to follow Him. Continued prayers and being humble is my plans for My Lord.
How is it in 9 hrs I have fallen into an abyss? I am weary of this world. I can't feel My Dear Lord near me.I cry my tears into the bottle He keeps. I cry out for My LORD!!!
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Okay well, look, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Honestly, the Bible does not state whether a person can go to heaven or hell and come back, and it don't tell if they can't. Clearly it is something the Lord didn't want us to know for now. When we get to heaven we will know for sure.
My personal conviction on the issue is stated above, and yes people can die and come back but I do not believe they go to heaven and hell and come back. Yes there is no in between yet God can hold that soul until he puts the soul back. Simple as that.
My main point was that your defense could not stand in a debate by using others opinions. Only the Word of God should be used to defend a point or it will not stand. This is something God didn't mind to tell us so there is no need in arguing such.
But thanks and sorry for the delay ((;
