Bright Young Things discussion

Welcome to February's group read of The Beautiful and Damned by F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Enjoy!

^ I am very interested to read what you make of it Val.


The only other books I've read by F. Scott Fitzgerald, prior to this one, are The Great Gatsby and Tender Is the Night. Both are wonderful, especially The Great Gatsby. So, I read this book as a confirmed F. Scott Fitzgerald fan who was keen to read more by him.

Unlike The Great Gatsby, this is long and sprawling novel and that is its great weakness. Some judicious editing might have resulted in another masterpiece. The Beautiful and Damned explores luxury's disappointment, and the corrupting and corrosive power of money. The couple at the heart of the story have it all and yet conspire to end the story as utterly broken and tragic.

As anyone who has already F. Scott Fitzgerald would expect, there is some stunning writing here and the book beautifully evokes the monied social milieu of the East Coast of the 1920s. He really was a special writer.

The Beautiful and Damned has many pointers to the greatness that was to follow just three years later with the publication of The Great Gatsby and is well worth reading but it is definitely not the best introduction to F. Scott Fitzgerald.

3/5

I'll leave it at that for now, however I am really looking forward to this discussion as I think F. Scott Fitzgerald is such a key writer and even when he's not writing masterpieces is always worth discussing.

Thanks for setting up the threads Jennifer! you're a star.

I'm about 70 pages in and, if I'm honest, I'm not too impressed. I read somewhere that this was semi-autobiographical and charts the courtship of Fitzgerald & his wife Zelda...and frankly, she's not striking me as being as interesting as the author clearly found her. For her time she must have been an unusual sort of woman and I suppose one should read with that 'hat' on. I'm also slightly annoyed at some of the misogynistic commentary but I'm wondering if this is part of the satire and that some sort of 'conclusion' will be wrought towards the end.

^ Thanks Ally. I'll be very interested to see what you think once you're a bit further in.

What's your personal history with F. Scott Fitzgerald? What do you think of his other work?

Ally wrote: "I'm also slightly annoyed at some of the misogynistic commentary but I'm wondering if this is part of the satire and that some sort of 'conclusion' will be wrought towards the end. "

I'm trying to remember "the misogynistic commentary" you mention and cannot recall it. I think there are some fairly traditional attitudes in the book but that is perhaps not surprising given the era but cannot recall any out and out misogyny.

I would certainly say that there's very few characters with whom I felt any sympathy or empathy. They are a spoiled and snobbish bunch of people and prone to general bad behaviour and with generally dubious attitudes - so. given that social milieu, misogyny would not surprise me. I just can't recall any specific examples.

Sadly the conclusion, or comeuppance, does not reveal any great epiphany. Indeed Anthony Patch gets off lightly. A more explicitly hellish ending might have made for a more satisfying conclusion - I'd be interested on other's views on this when more people have finished.

I'm looking forward to discussing as well. I'm about half way through with the book right now, and should be finished in a couple of weeks.

So far I'm enjoying the book, but the characters are not very likable. Wealthy and clueless, narcissistic, elitist, snobbish. But for all that, I am rooting for them, especially to be less with regard to all of those things. Given the title, however, I'm not optimistic.

Thanks Lynnm.


Lynnm wrote: "..the characters are not very likable. Wealthy and clueless, narcissistic, elitist, snobbish. But for all that, I am rooting for them, especially to be less with regard to all of those things."

You're perhaps right not to be optimistic. My edition basically summarised the plot on the back of the book, so there were no real surprises for me, and - as you say - the title gives a pretty clear indication where we're headed.

Not sure if I'll be reading this with the group. I'm going to be out of town for most of the month and haven't yet decided if I will take it with me. I will follow the discussion and contribute when I can.

I have been reading a biography of Max Perkins, Max Perkins: Editor of Genius by A. Scott Berg. It appears that, even at the beginning, Scott was a difficult person to edit. He wrote a play that the Board had some problems with and he threw everything out and started over from the beginning. It was still a flop.

I hope I'll have the chance to join in on this read before the month is out; I always enjoy Fitzgerald's work, and it's been so long since I've participated in a group read, so I'm looking forward to do another. I'll keep my fingers crossed and see what I can manage!

I am planning on re-reading this with the group, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents before the re-read!

I recently read Zelda by Nancy Mitford and that definitely is an eye opener in terms of Fitzgerald's work. So, if you haven't read it, I recommend it. Fitzgerald used a lot of his real life in his work (as most seem to do) and vented a lot of his issues into his work rather than acknowledge his problems in real life. So in this re-read I'm going to be looking as it more as a cathartic expression of emotions rather than a plot driven novel.

Upon my intial reactions towards the novel, I really enjoyed it and felt like he captured the essence of his crowd. The ending was unexpected but I believe there may have been alternate endings... not positive on that. I just remember it being surprising and I feel like I read somewhere that there were multiple endings. (no link but if anyone can help me out!)

What do we make of the short section entitled 'A Flashback in Paradise' -the conversation piece between Beauty and The Voice?

Amanda wrote: "I am planning on re-reading this with the group, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents before the re-read!

I recently read Zelda by Nancy Mitford and that definitely is an eye opener in terms of Fi..."

Amanda, thanks for the tip. I love biographies, and will definitely put that on my 'to-read' list.

Fortunately, my Barnes & Noble edition of the book has a lot footnotes, and they note the places where the book mimicks the real life events in Fitzgerald's life.

One problem that I am having is that while I have a good feel for English history and how people lived in England in the early 1900s, I don't have the same for American history outside the big events (which is odd because I'm American not British). I think I've gotten most of my ideas about the people of that time from reading Fitzgerald and Dreiser.

Were the rich as lazy and narcisstic as Fitzgerald portrays them to be? Was there such an existential - i.e., life is meaningless - sensibility in the wealthy at that time?

Ally wrote: "What do we make of the short section entitled 'A Flashback in Paradise' -the conversation piece between Beauty and The Voice?"

I'm not sure what to make of it at this moment. It was an odd interjection into the story. Did this ancient being take over Gloria's body? :-) Given the timeframe, Gloria was a young girl when that conversation takes place. Later, Fitzgerald mentions that at times Gloria seems to have an ancient spirit to bring us back to that section, but nothing further.

@Ally - checkout misogyny question in message 5. Interested in examples you noticed. Thanks.

@Ally / @ Lynnm Re: A Flashback in Paradise


I think it's meant to be a dream that connects Anthony as a single person in "paradise" before the intrusion of Gloria with all her arrival brings.

@Amanda


Thanks for tip on Nancy Mitford biog of Zelda.

What other recommendations do other BYTers have to help readers understand Fitzgerald's work? Reading Paula Byrne's "Mad World" was a brilliant way to understand Waugh's world and it really has enriched my understanding of all the books I've read before and since.

@ Caleb


I hope you have the chance to join in. Or perhaps start reading March's choice now? Or both? Looking forward to seeing you in a discussion soon.

@ Jan C


Enjoy your out of town trip. I hope you do decide to take the book with you and you have time to post a few thoughts.

That should be Nancy Milford as the author ofZelda.

Hemingway vs. Fitzgerald by Scott Donaldson discusses their relationship. I haven't finished this one yet. Crazy Sundays by Aaron Latham was a good book on Fitzgerald, if I recall. I think he may have married the daughter, Scottie.

Max Perkins by A. Scott Berg is an excellent background on many of the writers that he was an editor for, including Fitzgerald and Hemingway. This book indicated that there were alternative endings and Scott was making changes up until the last minute. Not all of the changes were accepted. It was thought that some changes would change the book too much. Although Perkins did want FSF to tone down some of the language for fear that readers would think it, too, was autobiographical (which it was on that point which had to do with religion).

I've made a start on this today and am enjoying it so far - I recently read Fitzgerald's first novel, 'This Side of Paradise', which is largely autobiographical and fascinating but obviously early work. I get the impression that this book sees quite an advance in his writing. I did wonder if there was a film, but it seems there is only a recent Australian film where the story has been updated, which has had bad reviews.

There was also a silent version in 1922, per imdb.com.

There is one in production called "The Beautiful and Damned" but it appears to be more of a biographical picture of Scott and Zelda.

Thanks, Jan - sadly it looks as if that silent version is lost, as with the silent film of 'The Great Gatsby', though a brief trailer for that does survive.

I see from Wikipedia that Fitzgerald hated the 1922 film - he's quoted as calling it "by far the worst movie I've ever seen in my life - cheap, vulgar, ill-constructed and shoddy." Ouch.

Will watch out for the new film, thanks for that info.

Jan, thanks also for mentioning Hemingway vs. Fitzgerald - this sounds very interesting to me after just reading Hemingway's account of Fitzgerald in A Moveable Feast. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it when you've finished.

Gratefully got this through ebooks. First book with the group.

I read chapter 1 last night. Nothing of Anthony struck me, but I did like the Beauty and the Voice.

It seemed to me that Beauty had done this all before. She has come to earth and been subject to Love- which if I remember correctly, either she or the Voice make a comment to the fact that it never ends well. I assume she will again come to earth in the form of a great beauty and will be subject to being the desire (lust, muse) of a new man, likely Anthony. But it does make me wonder, why is this section in Anthony's chapter, not the next chapter?

NigeyB...misogyny may have been too strong a term for me to use. You're right about the pitch being of its time. I suppose It's less about an 'anti-women' commentary and more about antiquated observations on the place of women, their role, the protection of their modesty & reputations etc...it occurs in the characterisation and exploitation of stereotypes, the settings etc but I'm not enjoying this book enough to go and re-read sections simply to find you examples (...apologies!)...I did say in my earlier post that there may be a need to read with a certain 'hat' on and to accept it for what it is but I guess I'm not in the mood for that! Oh dear.

Regarding Beauty & the voice... There was some sort of fun poking or mock horror at the thought of fat ugly women having any sort of hold over their menfolk... Is this humour? satire?expose? Does it get some sort of resolution at the end of the book? This annoyed me but if it's a tool used to highlight the wrongness of such attitudes then maybe I'll mellow! He he.

My history with Fitzgerald is limited to snippets of biography from histories I've read of the period and a couple of readings of The a Great Gatsby (...on which I wrote a comprehensive review for anyone who is interested enough to look it up!)...but a person's reading credentials are not necessary to holding an opinion. One of the greatest joys of literature is the fact the the author can only control half of the story. They write what they write but we read what we read! We bring to it all of our own history, experiences and opinions and no two reading experiences are exactly the same. That's the fun if groups like this and i'd encourage all of our members to be brave when sharing their opinions on what they read...there is no right and wrong!

^ Thanks Ally. Great stuff - as alway.

Please don't think that I assume that prior history is any kind of requirement in order to appreciate, or have a valid opinion, on an author's work. Absolutely not.

I just re-read your Gatsby review...

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

...which I completely concur with.

I am always curious to know people's opinions of that book as I think it's such a masterpiece.

By the by, I am still struggling to come up with a good biography of FSF. I've had a look round and there's nothing I can find that is equivalent to a Selina Hastings type overview or Paula Byrne. Please let me know if you ever find anything.

A brief foray through Amazon-land gave me a couple of biographies. The most promising seems to be the one by Scott Donaldson, Fool for Love: F. Scott Fitzgerald. Just noticed that he also has New Essays on a Farewell to Arms (although this note should be in a different thread).

Others include E. Ray Canterbery's F. Scott Fitzgerald: Under the Influence and Jeffrey Meyers' Scott Fitzgerald.

Donaldson's book starts with his St. Paul days and carries through to the bitter end.

Thanks Jan. I'll follow up on those.

Ally, I agree with you that Fitzgerald is at least a little misogynistic, as sad as it makes me.

I started my re-read and one of the things that's stuck out to me so far is Anthony's conversation with Geraldine, when he tells the story of the Chevalier O'Keefe. I think it pretty much sums up his whole attitude towards women so far. Not necessarily that women are the downfall of men, as in the story Anthony tells, but they bring out negative characteristics in men. In the story's case, lust. Another example of this is how Fitzgerald describes Gloria's parents: they became bores because of each other.

Fitzgerald is criticizing society a lot in this book, because there is virtually no one that has much of any redeeming qualities, but he seems to be harsher towards women, in my opinion.

Amanda wrote: "Fitzgerald is criticizing society a lot in this book, because there is virtually no one that has much of any redeeming qualities.."

Agreed. Well, to be more precise, he's criticising the monied and privileged society of his friends and his generation. His own society - a very small section of the wider society.

Amanda wrote: "...he seems to be harsher towards women, in my opinion. "

Perhaps. Maybe I'm less attuned to it. I thought he was pretty critical and jaundiced about everyone. I would say Anthony Patch comes across as a far more wretched and pathetic figure than Gloria - but they're both "damned".

What do we think of the writing style? For me, that's one of the book's great strengths. There is some stunning writing here - and flashes of the beauty and economy of The Great Gatsby.

Nigeyb wrote:

Agreed. Well, to be more precise, he's criticisi..."

Thank you! That is definitely what I meant by my generalized statement. I agree wholeheartedly.

And re: other comment, it probably is how we individually grew up(were taught how to) looking at books, which is why discussing books is so fun.:)

I just want to say, in the intro to my version, the author discusses TBaD as being a precursor to Gatsby, as in the same themes are being explored. I didn't really agree with most of his (the intro's author) statements, but I did see how Gloria could be an early version of Daisy. End of day, his strengths are his prose. He can succinctly sum up the attitude of a generation while at the same time spend pages discoursing bout nothing, or the environment of NY.

Side note: another bio option is Some Sort of Epic Grandeur: The Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald. A bio about Fitzgerald that also has an afterword of his daughters.'

^ Thanks Amanda. Wise and thoughtful - as ever.

Thanks also for the Some Sort of Epic Grandeur: The Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald recommendation - that looks to be the best I've seen so far. At least it's got plenty of positive reviews. It does seem to be quite expensive. Ah well. You can't have everything.

I'm struggling with this one a bit. I don't hate it - but I'm not rushing back to it either. I can't seem to get involved with the characters. I just read the bit where Gloria rushes out of the house in Marietta and they all spend the night at the train station. One of the friends is pontificating on something or other, and I just didn't get it at all.

^ I think I know what you mean Joanne. As I mentioned in my review it's great weakness is its unnecessary length.

The economy of The Great Gatsby is part of its magic. Some of my favourite books are very short (also thinking of the wonderful A Month in the Country here - thanks again BYT I might now have read it without you).

That said, I thought that particular scene you mention was quite powerful. The nightmarishness of their drunken excesses at the house causing Gloria to flee and the subsequent searching - both literal and of the soul. It was all quite powerful I thought.

Joanne wrote: "I just didn't get it at all."

Perhaps if it's not working for you, then move on?

I never feel I have to finish a book if I am not finding it rewarding, interesting or amusing.

There's too many great books out there to waste time on ones that are not for you.

Thank for posting your thoughts Joanne. Reading different reactions to a book is what makes these discussions so interesting.

I am enjoying the writing in this book, but I agree with your comment about it being long and sprawling Nigey. His later novels are more controlled.

Fitzgerald's characters are often shallow and unappealing, but I don't have to like the characters to enjoy the book.

I'm also enjoying the writing style now. It's interesting how there seem to be elements of Fitzgerald himself in both Patch and Richard Caramel (both great names!), whose novel, 'The Demon Lover', actually has the title Fitzgerald himself originally intended for his second book, according to the notes in the Oxford World Classics edition.

I'm about 100 pages in now and must say I definitely agree Patch's attitudes are chillingly misogynistic - just came up to a charming passage about how superior Gloria is to other women, in the chapter where he kisses her:

"Beside her the two dozen schoolgirls and debutantes, young married women and waifs and strays whom he had known were so many females, in the word's most contemptuous sense, breeders and bearers, exuding still that faintly odorous atmosphere of the cave and the nursery."

Well, that's put us in our place.

I do suspect, though, that Anthony's viewpoint is unreliable - and that Fitzgerald is criticising this point of view as he looks back to an earlier period, rather than sharing it. Hoping this will become more clearly the case later on!

Good comments Judy.
The opportunities available and attitudes towards women have changed since then. The way it is written does suggest that Fitzgerald is not endorsing Anthony's views, but I agree that it is not clear so far. He might simply be belittling women in general to show Gloria (and Zelda) in a good light.

Both very interesting observations Judy and Val. Thanks.

I agree that the quote you highlight Judy can be read as misogynistic - and probably is. When I read Patch's various condemnatory comments, and there are plenty of them throughout the novel, I saw them as a young person's contempt for bourgeoise norms. Patch is equally appalled by the men in commerce he meets in Wall Street with their ambitious preoccupations and admiration for those colleagues that are climbing the career ladder and making money.

I have returned my copy to the library so cannot refer back to it. To what extent do we think his comments are anti-women and to what extent part of a broader criticism of boring conformity? I am not sure. Is Fitzgerald suggesting that money and women will conspire to cause a man's downfall? Or is it just money that will corrupt anyone? Both Gloria and Anthony are damned by the last act.

I really must read a decent biography of FSF to get a better handle on what was going on his life when he was writing these books. I'd be interested to know the extent to which this might have been a commentary on his own relationship.

Anthony is dismissive of almost everyone and everything, anyone who works, anyone below his social class, intellectual level or sophistication, Jews and all women who aren't Gloria. He thinks he is above that mundane life of working for a living, but all he does instead for much of the story is laze about not writing a book and waiting for his grandfather to die. He thinks Gloria is wonderful, while we can see her as shallow and self-obsessed.
Judy could see elements of Fitzgerald in both Anthony and Dick and perhaps Fitzgerald could too, depending on how good he was feeling about his career that day. He could write perceptively about the 'Jazz Age' party lifestyle and see its faults, while being a celebrity within it. All his heroines are based on Zelda to some extent and he did see her as distinct from other women, but if he wrote this about their courtship at the start of their marriage, it is surprising that it is not more positive.

Val, great comments here and I like your description of the way Anthony spends his time - I'm around halfway through the novel now and was amused by Gloria's description of him drinking coffee, rearranging his pencils etc, since anybody who has had to write an essay knows the feeling!

Interesting to see how Dick's career still seems to be following a similar path to Fitzgerald's, with successful short stories and writing for the movies.

Thanks Val. Thanks Judy. Wonderful observations. I think you are spot on Val in your analysis.

Everybody Was So Young: Gerald and Sara Murphy: A Lost Generation Love Story by Amanda Vaill gave me a few insights into F. Scott Fitzgerald's state of mind, and that of Zelda. Both had a lot of issues and it's now clearer to me why there's so much misanthropy in this book (and others).

Just finished this book. The story itself seemed pretty ho-hum--spoiled, rich people sitting around drinking and waiting for an inheritance. They didn't seem to care much about values, other people, or even themselves. When Anthony had brief flashes of motivation in the military, he fell into an affair instead of focusing on his duties. When Gloria had a chance to do some acting, she wasn't interested because she wasn't going to be cast as a leading lady but as an older character actress. When their inheritance seemed lost, they instantly decided to contest the will rather than choosing to become self-reliant and finally grow up.

Nonetheless, I found things to like in this book. The writing was often stunning. Nearly every page had real beauty of language. Opening the book at random, you can find things like "as the weeks dried up and blew away," "routine comes down like twilight on a harsh landscape, softening it until it is tolerable," or "the idyll passed, bearing with it its extortion of youth."

I found the format interesting too. Most of the time, the story was given in straightforward novel form, but there were philosophical chapters and almost play-like bits as well. I would have to re-read this very carefully to feel that I understood Fitzgerald's intentions. Was he using different methods of telling the story for different purposes, or was he merely still learning to write and trying whatever came to mind?

I liked his little humorous touch in writing "everywhere I go some silly girl asks if I've read 'This Side of Paradise.'" He mentioned other topical books and people as well.

For me, one of the best passages was where Anthony was talking to Dot about desire. "Desire just cheats you. It's like a sunbeam skipping here and there about a room. It stops and gilds some inconsequential object, and we poor fools try to grasp it--but when we do the sunbeam moves on to something else, and you've got the inconsequential part, but the glitter that made you want it is gone--" Sounds almost Buddhist in essence. Too bad Anthony couldn't have used his insights to see past the glitter.

As several people have mentioned, there seemed to be many autobiographical elements in the book. I hope Fitzgerald found a bit more meaning in life than his characters seemed to. From the little I've read about FSF, I have to wonder....

I really enjoyed reading your review Barbara. Full of interesting insights and observations. Thanks so much.

Barbara wrote: "They didn't seem to care much about values, other people, or even themselves."

This is the crux of the book isn't it? Beautiful and Damned. I think your examples of missed opportunities perfectly encapsulates the moral vacuum in the personalities of Anthony and Gloria.

Like you I still wonder if it was primarily autobiography, or whether F. Scott Fitzgerald was holding up a mirror to his age and social milieu. Probably a bit of both. Either way it's an intriguing mess of a novel, especially given that it clearly presages the more satisfying The Great Gatsby.

Great review, Barbara, and I must agree about that passage you quote where Anthony is talking to Dot being excellent. I've just finished reading the novel and thought the whole last book was the best part of the novel, with the writing at times almost up to the intensity of The Great Gatsby - the section where Anthony is in the Army and in a relationship with Dot is especially powerful. The sympathy Fitzgerald shows for Dot to me suggests that he was indeed being satirical about Anthony's misogyny earlier on - I also think Gloria becomes quite poignant in this whole section with her grief for her disappearing beauty, and the humiliating screen test.

Judy--I just returned the book to the library two minutes ago, so can't give the quote, but in the last few pages of the book we see Gloria being snickered at on the ship. She's no longer young and beautiful--so in her own eyes she is now truly "damned." Gloria and Anthony have both gotten what they always wanted--the inheritance--and neither will enjoy it. Very sad.

I've just read Alan Margolies' introduction to the Oxford World's Classics edition, and was interested to see that Fitzgerald wrote three different endings - originally it was going to be an ending following on from that 'Beauty' passage earlier on, and then he wrote a different version for the magazine publication, but Zelda suggested it should end with Anthony on the ship - must say I think she was right.

Here's a link to an appendix I found at Google Books which includes both alternative endings, as well as a spoof review by Zelda.

Barbara, yes, and she also gets the coat - but you have the feeling she won't get much pleasure from that either.

There's an interesting quote in the introduction I've just read, from Fitzgerald in The Crack-Up in 1936, saying he 'would always cherish an abiding distrust, an animosity, toward the leisure class - not the conviction of a revolutionist but the smouldering hatred of a peasant'.

Many things to think about with that quote thank you for posting it, Judy .