His Dark Materials discussion

Many critics of this series claim that these books, which end in Lyra killing God, are Satanic and would be harmful to children if they read them. Do you agree? Personally I think a book is a book...an author should, by the laws of free speech, be allowed to speak his mind, and does not need public approval. Many fine books (including the Harry Potter series!) have been accused of the same. But everyone has their own opinion...what do you all think?

I think any believer of the omnipotent Jewish God or omnipotent Christian God or omnipotent Muslim God who gets offended by a young adult fantasy novel about a girl who kills a god is missing the point of having belief in an immortal god in the first place.

What's the fun in believing in a kick-ass divine being if you're going to get your knickers in a twist when somebody writes a book where somebody "kills" a god?

I don't think this book is satanic at all. It's just the whole book burning thing again isn't it.
People get all worried that this book is going to make their children not believe in God or change what they believe already--It's a fictional story! Besides the God in his book isn't divine at all, he's old and weak!

What religion is there on this earth where God is weak and old and could actually be killed??

Reading these books would not likely be harmful to anyone, let alone children. Children are young human beings with developing minds and for the most part can read a book and accept that not all content is absolute truth and/or reality.

What is forbidden, perhaps, is the stimulus of thought. Perhaps the fear of what those young minds might come up with on their own--and that those thoughts might differ from their own--this is terrifying to some.

To read a book and encounter ideas not often presented in your immediate environment, or to learn about another culture, or to enter a fantasy world where unimaginable and impossible things happen; this is a beautiful thing that brings us back to books time and time again. If a child reads this series and it brings questions of the faith into which they were born, then the opportunity for discussion arises. I do not see how this can be harmful, and am not clear on the definition of harmful is in this case.

And frankly, at this point, any discouragment against reading is evil. From comic books to the classics, let the children feed their brains!

This was not even about religion it was about a corrupt government in another world not at all like we live in. One would have to be really dislike Christianity to think that this book was about Christianity. It is FANTASY not reality.

"What is forbidden, perhaps, is the stimulus of thought. Perhaps the fear of what those young minds might come up with on their own--and that those thoughts might differ from their own--this is terrifying to some."

Excellent point!!!

With regards to the argument of whether the fact that Lyra killing the Authority makes this book Satanic:
1. I would like to point out that she didn't intentionally kill the Authority, although I suppose that is beside the point!
2. Would you consider Nietzche to be Satanic? I mean he too talks blatantly about the death of God!

I dont' think the issue is usually the fact that the "god" dies in the end. It's the idea that sinning is good. These books praise wrongdoing in the name of "independence" and "freethinking." Sure people learn from their mistakes, but that doesn't mean it has to be right! It is just fiction, but I think these books are not for pre-teens.

I totally agree with most all your points. The Authority might of been good, things changed when the Regent was placed in charge. I guess something happened to the Authority. That was never clear...

Except for the part where children do not know the difference between reality and fantasy. Young children might have a problem with this but most likely they can not read. Or would not be able to read at this level.

I never read anything by Friedrich Nietzsche but I doubt that he worships Satan. I have never taken philosophy. Being an atheist is not the same as being a Satanist.

Actually the not every powerful Authority dies. Not their God. Actually Lyra learns that it is not lying is not a good thing. That going to school and studying are good things.

Yes, exactly! The books do somewhat give an idea as to what good and evil are, even though it's not clear, but then again, these things are not clear in life as well. However, I don't agree that Pullman portrays sinning as good. Or perhaps, his idea of what "sin" is isn't the same as that of the Christian religion.

In fact, I think a message can be that while faith and ideals of a faith may remain absolute (be it Christianity or anything else), the human systems constructed to support and/or promote faith-based ideas can become corrupt and push more controversial ideals in the name of faith. One example from this triology is the practise of cutting. A sort of forced soul removal, for the sake of some spiritual, scientific goal. They targeted a vulnerable population and kidnapped children living in the lower eschelons of the hierarchical society of their world.

Rather, it is important to have a sense of personal ethics and mores which adhere to the general tenets put forth in most of the major religions (e.g. thou shalt not kill, treat others as you would be treated yourself) and also which extends to scientific experimentation and research. A sense of right and wrong comes from personal experience and teachings. Preventing children from reading certain books does not advance this process in our youth.

Such ideas do have a place in literature, and for children who are at the appropriate reading level I do not feel this should be on a restricted or banned reading list.

His books are all about thinking for yourself as apposed to the "MAN" or "SOCIETY" telling you what is good or bad, right or wrong.
His personal religion or lack thereof has NOTHING to do with a little girl and a compass..

Here's why this book is amazing: it's about EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter if one believes or disbelieves in anything, the fact is that people and life are complicated. No one is all good nor all bad. Mrs. Coulter--ooh, so evil--even *she* feels a sense of right and wrong and makes the ultimate sacrifice in the end. (One of the most moving parts for me is when she and the golden monkey hug with the realization as to what they need to do.) I don't think Pullman is confused at all. I think any ambiguity is there intentionally. In fact, I think the end of Bk. 1 is genius. Going into the unknown! We do that every day. Yay Philip Pullman! (Movie not so great. Killer casting though!)

This book isn't Satanic. If anything its just against organized taking control. Most of all it just about how a child grows into an adult.

I thought the ending of the series was strange, but I wouldn't call it Satanic. If Philip Pullman has something against religion, that's his opinion and it should be respected. I can understand his viewpoint, because religion can definitely be too controlling sometimes. Of course, I am not very religious myself.

First of all, Erin, you made some lovely points.

Secondly - Satanic: Atheism, or anti-christianity particularly, are considered Satanic in root, as Satan has pulled the atheistic mind away from God. This is not my belief, but it is the belief of many christians.

Now on to the book:

This trilogy is an evisceration of christianity. Let us not be pleasant or deluded about this. The entire structure of the plot leads not to the death of the authority but to the OVERTURNING of the knowledge myth. Adam and Eve were not wrong to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, the serpent is not satan but Wisdom itself. The serpent, being wisdom, understands that knowledge contains all the beauty of joy and sadness, all the sweetness and devestation of Love, the duality of good and evil - all are contained in knowledge. Therefore Adam and Eve, by eating of the tree are GROWING UP.

This is the central tenet of the book. This is what Mrs. Coulter is trying to "cut" away. This is Lyra's mission. Not to kill God, but to overturn the terrible interpretation of the tree of knowledge. When she and will come together they are embracing the beauty and love that they can only feel if they GROW UP.

The series is the ultimate adolescent novel trilogy. It is about embracing adulthood, it is about embracing knowledge. It is about love and beauty, and the eternal. It is very religious.

but make no mistake - it is about the destruction of Christianity's core values of the Fall of man, of the morally corrupt church, of the demonization of sexuality. All these things must fall if we see the Tree of Knowledge and the Serpent as the OPENING of man rather then the FALL of man.

Oddly enough, the former is roughly how Judaism sees the tree and the serpent. I don't know enough about islam to comment about its vision of the tree and the serpent.

peace.

Huh, something odd there. I'm a Mormon, and we believe that when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of knowledge they were growing up, too. And yes, we are Christians. We believe that without that choice, we could never have come to be. There would just be Adam and Eve, perpetually innocent, neither happy or unhappy, because they don't know anything. Being thrown out of the Garden was necessary for children to come to be. Sex isn't evil at all if it's within wedlock, in fact, it's one of the most beautiful things we have on this earth to be able to have children.
Maybe these books are trying to destroy Catholicism's core values, but ours are just fine.

cool.

and you are correct, the attack is more aimed at european christianity. Pullman has said in interviews that much of his material for the series is in parrallel with Milton's Paradise Lost, but drawing different conclusions then Milton of course.

cheers.

I do not see how you can see that there are any correlations between this world and our world. Or even Christianity in general. The book is not set in a world that we know.
This is a book in the FANTASTY it is not reality. If you want to bash Christianity please take this up on a book that is about religion. Not a fun children's book. I find this to be offensive.

it is an ALLEGORY (sorry for the caps, was responding to FANTASY, above)

I am sorry you are offended, but you have completely missed the point. Write a letter to Philip Pullman if you do not believe me.

Here is an example of a fantasy: Lord of the Rings. i.e. it has no relation to historical/social events of its time or other times. It is a tale out of time and out of our world.

Pullman on the other hand wrote an allegory - a fable of figurative meaning. It is not a literal evisceration of the european church, but a metaphor, an analogy. It conveys it's meaning subtly via alternate quantum realities.

In fact the quantum factor of these books is vastly important to their understanding - one of the worlds that Lyra stumbles into is in fact our own, with a correlative relationship to the events of all the other quantum worlds, but without a Lord Asrael to blow a gaping hole in the veils separating them.

seriously, offended or not, you are missing the power and beauty of these books if you disavow their allegorical content.

Lizzy. Why worry about the books being Satanic. The fear of Satanism is a strange aberation of unorthodox American Christians. As many of the other contributors have remarked the books support a wide deep and fairly common interpretaion of traditional religion. The wise view is that in a complex world it is impossible to define good and evil by a finite number of rigid rules. (There is even a mathematical theorem due to Goedel, which suggests this.) It is not the rules that matter but how they are interpreted by loving and concientious people.

By the way I found the books confusing and the though very very muddled. It was a struggle to get through.

ALL OF U PEOPLE SCARE ME. THE DEAMONS OF SEXUALITY?! CHRISTIANITY?! WAT THE?- ITS JUST A BOOK!! A GENIOUS, WONDERFUL, BREAKTAKING, FANTASY BOOK!!!! SORRY, BUT SOME OF U KINDA MAKE ME SICK AND CONFUSED. WELL, YES, IT IS A SUPER WEIRD, QUESTIONABLE BOOK, AND HAS SOME...PARTS. like when marisa coulter goes 2 the metratron and has 2 strip. wat the-??!!! lets hop they water down the movie A LOT. and they hav gay angels. and philip refers to angels and Lyra as being eve when he doesn't believe in the bible. yes, u all hav freedom 2 express ur feelings on a book, but stop pounding it!! u should just enjoy it & love it as it is, no matter, the questionable parts!! thats up 2 philip pullman & his many possible secrets. ENJOY THE BOOK!!! 6_6

Fair points I have read so far people. Note: I love the HDM books, both because of the allegoriacal dimension and of course the story itself. I particularly liked your point Lucas on the last page. The allegoriacal quality gives the story more depth, if you can draw comparisons to real life it can make it interesting. John Milton's classic "Paradise Lost" was criticised at the time of publication because it supposedly made Satan/Lucifer look heroic. I don't personally believe in Satan, but I have never really seen Yahweh as a god God, more a tyrant which is partly why I find Milton's representation of Satan interesting, and obviously Pullman's Metatron who is similar to Yahweh.

lovely

@ Meh: Thank you so much; I'm also a Mormon and those are very important points to consider.

I also love the way the story is set within several different worlds and the storylines are very intricately inter-woven without contradicting each other. I find that the book is sort of focusing on the War in Heaven and how it has changed the world as a whole along with all its dimensions. It's also using Dust as a representation of how many people in the world don't have a good friend, so they just keep to themselves and go through depression and insomnia alone, and the world is, in a sense, rotting because of it. Now it seems like finding a person with a friend is rare and strange because it's so hard to trust people these days.

If these books are satanistic at all, it is the fact alone that they "kill" God. I see not how this is satanic at all, if he was suffering inside that little crystal box, then they were doing him a favor by not prolonging his suffering.

I can see how this book could be construed as a book to bring down Catholicism. God is killed. The Pope and Bishop like people were portrayed as being really evil. Sure. The leap isn't far.

As far as being dangerous to children? Give me a child that will read this and understand what it is being said and I will show you a child who can find no danger in a thought experiment. This book is sold as a young adult or children's book but it is not an easy read.

Also, nobody made a fuss about the book until the movie came out. It was like nobody even cared that God was being killed until they could see it on film. I mean to the point where the Catholic school where my mom works owned the book in their library. Then when the movie came out and the Pope spoke out about it (or whatever) they had to pull it off their shelves. Why don't people read books without the movie??

Lastly, IT IS FICTION! It is interesting but did it shake my world? No. Because it's just not real.

I actually read and understood the books when I was ten, technically a "child."

I as an orthodox Christian found the book blasphemous but very well written. In spite my beliefs I liked it. I was a bit upset, to tell the truth, but after thinking about it, it was quite an original piece of work and I would gladly read it again. So, final summation - this is a good read, and a fine addition to the world of epic fantasy.

I don't believe in satan, so for me the book was creative and interesting. If Klingons can kill their gods, don't see why humans from multiple universes can't.

I understood the story as showing a tyrannical "authority," who is not the true creator but an angel imposter, who has inspired the religious leaders to oppress its peoples by spreading lies and keeping them in ignorance. Lyra and Will have the duty to help Asriel and others overpower this imposter and his minions and establish a new kingdom of heaven that fosters knowledge and tolerance and diversity.

So I think the church and not God is the target of this trilogy. Pullman is critical of organized religion and its inablity to foster knowledge, tolerance, and diversity.

In no way is this book satanic. It doesn't, as most people say, encourage atheist beliefs, as it does say that God, or the Authority, does exist. It is a wonderful story. Besides, every author has a right to tell the world what they think- even if the world rejects their belief.

It's hard to imagine how a book by one of the most famous atheists in the world could be described as "satanic." That's a stupid as saying paganism is "satanic."

celia ♥ wrote: "ALL OF U PEOPLE SCARE ME. THE DEAMONS OF SEXUALITY?! CHRISTIANITY?! WAT THE?- ITS JUST A BOOK!! A GENIOUS, WONDERFUL, BREAKTAKING, FANTASY BOOK!!!! SORRY, BUT SOME OF U KINDA MAKE ME SICK AND CONFU..."

I totally agree. It is a good book. It is fiction/fantasy. Not based in reality. If a child can not separate fiction/fantasy from fact they are not old enough to read these books. I guess neither are many adults here too.