Retro Reads discussion

Book One, The Shadow Before, Chapters 1-6

I had to keep flipping back to the family tree through this section. lol I'm in that dog-days of summer mood where nothing much sticks in my brain. But the family is interesting. I can't believe what Lord War did at the end of Book 1!

Who has been taking care of the estates in India meanwhile? And this is a bit of a picky comment, but I would have thought that, just out of self interest, the family would have treated Winter better and even betrothed her to Huntley to keep the money in the family. Ah, but then it would have been a different book...

LOL...Hana, I did the same thing. Switching from the family tree to the text to remind myself who is who.

It is a complicated family, on both sides. I know the first of this starts awfully slow, but those family connections on her father's side (view spoiler)[come into play later in the book IIRC. (hide spoiler)]

Very, very slight spoiler there.

I figured as much, Misfit. The intermarriage is very much the sort of thing that happened in the early days of European trading in India. White Mughals: Love and Betrayal in Eighteenth-Century India was a great non-fiction book on the subject.

Hana wrote: "I figured as much, Misfit. The intermarriage is very much the sort of thing that happened in the early days of European trading in India. [book:White Mughals: Love and Betrayal in Eighteenth-Centur..."

That book has flitted around on my maybe read list for years.

Hana, Samanta, I've been flipping to the family tree as well. Thank heavens for it or I'd be lost.

Hana, that is a good point about a match for Winter with one of her Grantham cousins--that was done in the past for the exact reasons you have given.

I don't understand why Marco wanted (view spoiler)[Sabrina's grandfather to have his child when he has such antipathy for him! (hide spoiler)]

I'm going tho have to come back and read Misfit's comment bec I have Ch 5-6 to read but I just wanted to say I am enjoying my first exp with MM Kaye!

I am extremely angry with Marcos. I know all of us have our own way of dealing with loss (I really do!) but (view spoiler)[deciding to go to war and trying to get yourself killed just so that you don't have to deal with that loss thus leaving your child parentless, without even taking the time to know the said child or giving it a chance to know you, strucks me as selfish and cowardly (hide spoiler)]. Ugh! I am so dissapointed I have to take a break from reading.

I completely agree, Samanta! Andrea, you're right, too. There are some plot holes and odd goings on in the early part of the story (including Marcos' incomprehensible behavior!) but I'm just going to roll with it. I figure Kaye is just moving everyone around to get the main characters where she needs them. Still....

Samanta wrote: "I am extremely angry with Marcos. I know all of us have our own way of dealing with loss (I really do!) but [spoilers removed]. Ugh! I am so dissapointed I have to take a break from reading."

I feel exactly the same about Marcos!

She could have let him live and take part in his daughter's life. She could have still ended up going to England. But that's authors prerogative.

You are all such fast readers. I have this in hard back and have just returned home from a trip -- no way I was going to lug this behemoth with me. Just starting.

Just finished Book 1. What a mess poor Winter has been born into, and is living with!

And the fact that her family did not want to tell her what Alex warned them about Conway. I wonder though would Winter have believed them since she idolizes Conway and knows her family does not love her.

Kathy wrote: "You are all such fast readers. I have this in hard back and have just returned home from a trip -- no way I was going to lug this behemoth with me. Just starting."

Hi Kathy! I hope you enjoy it. I'm liking it-my first -time read ogf MM Kaye.

Samanta wrote: "And the fact that her family did not want to tell her what Alex warned them about Conway. I wonder though would Winter have believed them since she idolizes Conway and knows her family does not lov..."

My take is that since everyone was cruel to hat except her grandfather and her nurse died, the memory and promised marriage was all that she had to cling to. It probably IMO would have been traumatic to try to think about what in the world she'd do w/o both grandfather and Conway.

Poor, poor Winter!

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "Just finished Book 1. What a mess poor Winter has been born into, and is living with!"

I can't help but wonder why that dastardly Marcos didn't have her sent to Spain on his death instead.

Maybe because it was Sabrina's wish that Lord Ware takes charge of Winter if something happens to them. Am I wrong?

It was Sabrina's wish that Winter be sent to Lord Ware.

I am sure Marcos had no love for the Earl, but Sabrina did. Marcos' parents were dead, and he had no family but his sister. Leaving Winter to be raised by Juanita would have meant that the child would be raised as an Indian. Marcos was much more European than his sister, and this would not have been acceptable to him. He also wanted to accommodate Sabrina's wishes, and she wanted her grandfather to have Winter if Marcos couldn't.

I agree that Marcos' conduct was selfish, but M. M. Kaye likes her couples very Romeo-and-Juliety: the "the world is well lost for love" and "I can't live without you" type of love. To me, one of the plot developments that didn't ring completely true was Winter's engagement to Conway by her grandfather. This was the man who turned up his nose at the titled, extremely wealthy Conde as a match for his beloved Sabrina. Now he's satisfied with a plain Mr., one with only slight connections to nobility and no fortune--a man who actually has to work for a living--for the great-granddaughter of an English earl, descended from both French and Spanish nobility, who possesses a title and huge fortune in her own right? Yes, he was getting old but was not senile. It seems that even if he were favorably impressed by Conway, he would still consider it as a very poor match for Winter's station. It seems more likely that he would have borrowed Julia's list and picked one of those guys to betroth her to. Then he could be sure that she would stay in merry old England and still make an advantageous marriage instead of a mésalliance.

But oh, how beautifully M. M. Kaye can craft a sentence! They flow as smoothly as satin.

I guess I just thought that Marcos may have had family in Spain.

It just seemed that when Sabrina decided that her (girl) child should go to her grandfather, she forgot the less than favorable treatment she received by her female family members and that Winter as a girl, would fall into their hands.

I agree that it seemed out of the Earl's character to contract Winter to Conway for all of the reasons that you gave.

I think I recall it being mentioned the earl was getting on in years, and his eyesight and judgment weren't what they once were. I have to agree, you would have thought he'd have aimed higher.

Misfit wrote: "I think I recall it being mentioned the earl was getting on in years, and his eyesight and judgment weren't what they once were. I have to agree, you would have thought he'd have aimed higher."

Yes, he wasn't senile, but he was very old and I think he had convinced himself that Conway was a prize. And Conway also would take Winter away from the relatives who would be in charge of her after his death and who had no love for her at all. At this point in the story, too, Conway was good-looking and plausible. He certainly took in both Winter and her great-grandfather!

Hana wrote: "I had to keep flipping back to the family tree through this section. lol I'm in that dog-days of summer mood where nothing much sticks in my brain. But the family is interesting. I can't believe wh..."

I'm not sure this was a good pick for summer reading; I may head over to an Austen after this for some cool Englishness. The heat here and the heat in India are frying my brains.

I know! Her descriptions are so vivid that I can feel my own skin sizzling. Of course, it might actually be because I had to step outside! I'm in Houston, and so far it's only 93 right now, but we'll hit 100 by the end of the day. The humidity's low today, though--only 49%, so we're lucky there! Still, I feel Sabrina's pain!

Cindy wrote: "I am sure Marcos had no love for the Earl, but Sabrina did. Marcos' parents were dead, and he had no family but his sister. Leaving Winter to be raised by Juanita would have meant that the child ..."

We also have to take into account that the Granthams considered de Ballesteros as foreigners because they lived in India and Juanita was born there and married and Indian. Also the English did not hold the Spanish in high regard (in terms of being their equals) no matter the title and despite being Europeans and a very old nation.

Cindy wrote: "I know! Her descriptions are so vivid that I can feel my own skin sizzling. Of course, it might actually be because I had to step outside! I'm in Houston, and so far it's only 93 right now, but ..."

I'm in the notorious inland Northwest- where "It's 104, but that's ok, because there's no humidity" gets said a lot. And it's still 104!

(But not today, hallelujah! It's only forecast for 95)

Karlyne wrote: "(But not today, hallelujah! It's only forecast for 95)"

Only hitting the mid seventies today. Overnight temps might lower into the 50s.

I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?

Misfit wrote: "Only hitting the mid seventies today. Overnight temps might lower into the 50s."

Excellent sleeping temps with open windows, I'm jealous. :)

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?"

No, there are parts of this novel that do slog along, but the last third - watch out.

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?"

I found some parts a bit dry too, but I made myself read them because it's a good history lesson. I had more trouble with some parts in book two. I almost skipped 10 pages, but decided to read it after all.

Samanta wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I am sure Marcos had no love for the Earl, but Sabrina did. Marcos' parents were dead, and he had no family but his sister. Leaving Winter to be raised by Juanita would have meant t..."

Good point, Samanta, that the English weren't crazy about Spaniards. After all, they'd been enemies for centuries!

(And that reminded me of the scene in The Princess Bride where Inigo Montoya offers the man in black his hand on the word of a Spaniard. He declines with, "No, thanks, I've known too many Spaniards.")

Cindy wrote: "M. M. Kaye likes her couples very Romeo-and-Juliety: the "the world is well lost for love" and "I can't live without you" type of love. To me, one of the plot developments that didn't ring completely true was Winter's engagement to Conway by her grandfather...."

Yes, exactly Cindy! I'm kind of going with it but what her grandfather should, and probably would have done in the real world, is appoint an estate executor and a legal and accountancy firm skilled in dealing with international properties that would be prepared to aide the young heiress in managing her life. By Victorian times such skills were not uncommon.

International marriage politics was also hardly unknown to the British upper classes. The logical thing for the family to do was to auction poor Winter off to the highest bidder. They could easily have overturned granddaddy's wishes and they had--had they banded together--every incentive to do so. Think of the opportunities for nepotistic appointments! The estates to be purchased! The investment opportunities! Yes, they have money and estates, but that's rarely a cure for desiring more money.

Diane Lynn wrote: "Misfit wrote: "Only hitting the mid seventies today. Overnight temps might lower into the 50s."

Excellent sleeping temps with open windows, I'm jealous. :)"

I'd rather see 40s or 30s. It's been a looooooooooooooooooong stretch of hot with no AC in the house.

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?"

I didn't have as much trouble with those parts as I did with the violence in the later pages. Definitely had to read with squinty eyes.

But if she'd been married off to someone else, we would have had no need for Alex to come and escort her. He is such a hunk.

I assume everyone knows this covers the Sepoy Mutiny, but not sure how familiar everyone is with the details. They are pretty brutal, so prepare yourselves.

Misfit wrote: "But if she'd been married off to someone else, we would have had no need for Alex to come and escort her. He is such a hunk.

I assume everyone knows this covers the Sepoy Mutiny, but not sure how ..."

Right, Misfit! I think that all the pre-history is pretty much necessary to the events that are coming up. It's hard to understand even with the background; without it, it'd be impossible.

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?"

I don't mind those parts too much, Tadiana. We have to have the background in order to understand the plot, and she doesn't present it like a history book--"This person did this. Then this happened. As a result, blah blah blah." She interjects her own viewpoint bolstered by the 20/20 vision of hindsight. She explains how stupid the actions of those in charge were, and exactly how these actions were viewed by the native population and the clearer-headed members of the British army. Seeing the events from the perspective of the Indians, and hearing of the struggles of those few men who understood the perils of the situation really helps build that impending sense of doom.

Kaye has spent a great deal of her life in India and it shows in her writing, she does seem to understand the eastern mindset. I always come away from one of her books seeing how we never learn from history's mistakes. Her obituary in interesting reading. http://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/...

One of these days I'm going to get her memoirs out from the library and read them. I hear the elephant scene from The Far Pavilions was inspired by real life events.

Thanks for the link, Misfit! It is very interesting reading. I've heard that her memoir is also worth reading. You can certainly see her inspiration for The Far Pavilions in her own life story.

Misfit wrote: "Kaye has spent a great deal of her life in India and it shows in her writing, she does seem to understand the eastern mindset. I always come away from one of her books seeing how we never learn fro..."

I knew none of that! Thanks for the link, Misfit. I hadn't even realized that Shadow of the Moon was pre-Far Pavilions. My ignorance humbles me...

Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it just me?"

I liked that part ok. I didn't mind it. I'm interested in Britsh in India stuff--The Raj. If we were reading about politics in some other country, perhaps not so much.

It's a very interesting era, and oh, those politics and political shenanigans and arrogant politicians and officers and British imperialism. Kaye really nails it, and I always come away knowing that east and west are never going to see eye to eye and what are we doing making the same mistakes over and over again sticking our nose into their own business.

Misfit wrote: "It's a very interesting era, and oh, those politics and political shenanigans and arrogant politicians and officers and British imperialism. Kaye really nails it, and I always come away knowing tha..."

Yes.

I'm with Tadiana--I also found some of that a bit dry. I tend to find the book more interesting when we're finding out what's happening to Winter, anyway. :)

Samanta wrote: "Tadiana ✩ Night Owl☽ wrote: "I found some parts of Book 1, where Kaye was summarizing the historical political dealings and turmoil in India, tough slogging. I tended to skim those parts. Is it jus..."

Just started today (FINALLY!). I do love Kaye's description of India -- the sights, sounds, & smells. Missed reading her. Tragic start to the story, but things are not always happy in her stories.

Hana wrote: "I figured as much, Misfit. The intermarriage is very much the sort of thing that happened in the early days of European trading in India. [book:White Mughals: Love and Betrayal in Eighteenth-Centur..."


Added that to my TBR list -- of course I will probably die before I finish that list. LOL

Oh, hi Kathy.

This author is very good with description. I feel as if I'm seeing what she saw/experienced in India in terms of the outdoor scenery, the heat, the weather and, smells. I love that sort of writing--descriptive. I feel as if I am there.