The Pickwick Club discussion

Dear Fellow Pickwickians,

I've been saying that the plot was thickening for the last two weeks, and in Chapters 36 - 40 it still is.

Please place your observations here ...

The gang is reassembling. I like the way dickens is bring things full circle with the 5 yr gap. He's not giving information about what may have happened and still i feel very in step as the reader.

Introduce Dennis. He is gluing the riots and the domestic part of the story together for me. He's involving himself in a solution but he is a huge part of the problem. It astounds me how many in depth character studies dickens was capable of. When I read multiple books by an author I find there are only so many personas they have in their box. They are reworked but there is a common thread. Where dickens seems to have an endless understanding of the individual.

How rich the characters are. Gashford (great name) is quite the piece of work. Dickens describes his countenance as "singularly repulsive and malicious." When Gashford looks to the future and says "More seed, more seed ... When will the harvest come" the reader knows evil is just around the corner.

I also found the interaction of Tappertit and Dennis delightful, in a grotesque way. Tappertit doesn't know what Dennis's occupation is. Their conversation is a delight to read and Dickens gives their talk delightful irony and exuberant black humour. When Tappertit asks if Dennis was there at a hanging ,Dennis replies "Oh! yes certainly, I was there. He wouldn't have gone off half as comfortable without me."

Dickens constantly impresses me with his skill of revealing character through conversation, gesture and appearance.

Here's a part from Chapter 36 that amused me when Gashford and Lord George are discussing funds for their "great and mighty cause". I loved the descriptions of the people and groups joining them:

'The funds?'

'Not VERY improving; but there is some manna in the wilderness, my lord. Hem! On Friday night the widows' mites dropped in. "Forty scavengers, three and fourpence. An aged pew-opener of St Martin's parish, sixpence. A bell-ringer of the established church, sixpence. A Protestant infant, newly born, one halfpenny. The United Link Boys, three shillings--one bad. The anti-popish prisoners in Newgate, five and fourpence. A friend in Bedlam, half-a-crown. Dennis the hangman, one shilling."'

'That Dennis,' said his lordship, 'is an earnest man. I marked him in the crowd in Welbeck Street, last Friday.'

'A good man,' rejoined the secretary, 'a staunch, sincere, and truly zealous man.'

'He should be encouraged,' said Lord George. 'Make a note of Dennis. I'll talk with him.'

Gashford obeyed, and went on reading from his list:

'"The Friends of Reason, half-a-guinea. The Friends of Liberty, half-a-guinea. The Friends of Peace, half-a-guinea. The Friends of Charity, half-a-guinea. The Friends of Mercy, half-a-guinea. The Associated Rememberers of Bloody Mary, half-a-guinea. The United Bulldogs, half-a-guinea."'

In Chapter 38 we have Dennis giving this rather creepy description of Hugh to Gashford:

'Did you ever, Muster Gashford,' whispered Dennis, with a horrible kind of admiration, such as that with which a cannibal might regard his intimate friend, when hungry,--'did you ever--and here he drew still closer to his ear, and fenced his mouth with both his open bands--'see such a throat as his? Do but cast your eye upon it. There's a neck for stretching, Muster Gashford!'

In Chapter 38 we have this line after Hugh has been enrolled as a member a member of the Great Protestant Association of England:

"If anything could have exceeded Mr Dennis's joy on the happy conclusion of this ceremony, it would have been the rapture with which he received the announcement that the new member could neither read nor write: those two arts being (as Mr Dennis swore) the greatest possible curse a civilised community could know..."

I wondered why being able to read and write would be the greatest possible curse on a civilised community, so I looked it up. In my copy it says that people who couldn't read or write were more likely to be hanged. Those who were literate could claim "Benefit of Clergy". Now looking up what Benefit of Clergy was I found that prisoners who could read the first verse of Psalm 51 to the chaplain at Newgate were reprieved from execution. It was known as the neck-verse. I would think that anyone with half a brain would just memorize the verse by having someone else read it to them, and apparently the authorities thought of that too because if the defendant who claimed benefit of clergy was particularly deserving of death, courts occasionally would ask him to read a different passage from the Bible, usually something difficult which he would be unable to do.

Oh, in case you're wondering the verse is:

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions."

Hello Joy,

to be honest, since the appearance of Dennis I have stopped thinking about the ladies or Joe Willet, who went into the world, because Dennis is such a remarkable character. I particularly like the idea of his running around dressed from top to toe in dead people's clothes.

Also his primary reason for joining the anti-Catholic course is remarkable - being worried that the death penalty will be inflicted by burning rather than hanging people if the Catholics rise to power.

This is a wonderfully macabre rogue. ;-)

Kim wrote: "In Chapter 38 we have this line after Hugh has been enrolled as a member a member of the Great Protestant Association of England:

"If anything could have exceeded Mr Dennis's joy on the happy conc..."

As usual, it's good to have you around because you always come up with some interesting bit of information. I did not know about the Benefit of Clergy at all, and so I wondered why Dennis would regard reading and writing as a curse. All the more so, as it actually goes against Protestant mentality to denigrate literacy because after all the Bible is to be read by every believer as they all should have direct, unmediated access to the word of God.

This contradiction already shows what kind of people have gathered around the deluded Lord George.

Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the latter has snubbed him that night when he was a guide to John Willet. Frankly, Hugh should be used to being snubbed by now because all the world treated him badly, especially John Willet, for whom he is little more than an animal.

And maybe that is the point: Hugh is so frustrated and angry that the anti-Catholic movement seems to him to provide an opportunity to use violence against a certain group of people and probably not be held accountable for it.

Cf. the scene in which Hugh does not even get the anti-Catholic slogan right, interestingly turning it into "No Property", and is mildly corrected by Gashford whereas Dennis says it's all the same.

Kim wrote: "In Chapter 38 we have this line after Hugh has been enrolled as a member a member of the Great Protestant Association of England:

"If anything could have exceeded Mr Dennis's joy on the happy conc..."

Kim

Once again, you present us with a fascinating fact. I confess I have always thought the phrase "benefit of clergy" referred to a couple who were married as opposed to a couple who were living together but were unwed.

Tristram wrote: "Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the latter has snubbed him that night..."

Tristram

You are right. Hugh is a frightening character. He represents a person who is unable to find acceptance with others, a person whose resentment, anger and thinly veiled hatred is at a constant boil just beneath the surface. A bomb awaiting a fuse with nothing to lose, nothing to gain, but determined to ruin something, someone, sometime.

Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the latter has snubb..."

I actually wonder why Hugh has never done anything to John Willet in those five years of Joe's absence. Consider the opportunity he had that night when John wanted to curry favour with his landlord - what is more natural, and deplorable, for a nocturnal wanderer than to lose his way and drown in some swamp?

Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the la..."

Tristram

Hugh is a frightful character. He could well have "disposed" of John as you suggest. Is his malignant evil like gas fumes? Ever present, ever dangerous, yet somehow also always lurking around the edges waiting for the spark to unleash the explosion. His type of character is one to be used, I think, by others, which is truly sinister.

And yet, Peter, I could not fail to ask myself why Hugh can put up with all sort of comtemptuous treatment from John Willet - well, sometimes he gets one over on his master, e.g. when he climbs up the roof to get the wig and then throws the wig into the dust before putting it on John's head (I hope I remember that correctly). So apparently a lot of abuse from John Willet does not seem to rouse him above the urge to play a little joke on him, but one simple remark from Mr. Haredale makes him chafe and fret for revenge ...???

Tristram wrote: "And yet, Peter, I could not fail to ask myself why Hugh can put up with all sort of comtemptuous treatment from John Willet - well, sometimes he gets one over on his master, e.g. when he climbs up ..."

Tristram

True. You are right. It will be interesting to watch the events about to unfold. I will have to watch Hugh's actions more carefully.

Yes, let's keep an eye on that strange fellow ;-) I will start this week's assignment tomorrow, because tonight I will finish "The Knightes Tale" (I'm still in the list of all the trees that were used for Acite's pyre), and then round off the evening with a wonderful film noir.

Christine wrote: "He's [Dennis] involving himself in a solution but he is a huge part of the problem."

I'm curious how you think he's part of the problem, at least as it concerns the Catholic emancipation issue.

Peter wrote: "I also found the interaction of Tappertit and Dennis delightful, in a grotesque way. Tappertit doesn't know what Dennis's occupation is. Their conversation is a delight to read and Dickens gives their talk delightful irony and exuberant black humour. "

I agree completely. It was a lovely conversation to read, since we were "in the know" and so could appreciate all those delightfully veiled remarks from Dennis (I wonder whether hangmen of the day really did inherit the clothes of those they, uh, assisted into the afterlife).

Kim wrote: " In my copy it says that people who couldn't read or write were more likely to be hanged. Those who were literate could claim "Benefit of Clergy". "

I love that detail.

Tristram wrote: "Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the latter has snubbed him that night..."

This implies, doesn't it, that Haredale is Catholic. But have we ever been told that? If so, I missed it, and it would perhaps be significant that presumably, then, his daughter would, too. Or isn't he Catholic, and is there some other reason Hugh thinks he can get back at him by joining the Protestant association?

Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "I also found the interaction of Tappertit and Dennis delightful, in a grotesque way. Tappertit doesn't know what Dennis's occupation is. Their conversation is a delight to read and Di..."

Everyman

The collection of objects, clothes and other bits and pieces from the dead is also seen in GE with Wemmick, and, to a degree, Mr. Jaggers too. I wonder how much of this character development that Dickens creates is based on fact, and how much to enhance the story with quirky behaviour.

Everyman wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Hugh's motives for joining the anti-Catholic course are also interesting. On the surface he seems to want to have revenge on Mr. Haredale because he feels that the latter has snubb..."

I do think that it is made clear quite early that the Haredales are Catholics but I cannot remember the first instance of a mention to that effect. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons Mr. Chester gave his son as to why he cannot entertain any hopes of ever marrying Emma was the difference in denomination. This was voiced either in the first talk the Chesters had upon that subject or in the passage when old Chester finally disowned his son.

In this week's chapters, however, all doubts as to Haredale's Catholicism are removed. Interestingly, Mr. Gashford also used to be Catholic once, so he is a turncoat as now he persecutes those whose faith he once shared.

Peter wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Peter wrote: "I also found the interaction of Tappertit and Dennis delightful, in a grotesque way. Tappertit doesn't know what Dennis's occupation is. Their conversation is a delig..."

I do not know for sure but would not anybody who had committed a crime that brought capital punishment on them forfeit their possessions to the Crown? And if those possessions were but meagre, might they not come down to the hangman as the Crown's representative?

Here you go:
Tyburn’s gallows was the main place of execution for London and Middlesex until 1783. It was also the place where women were burnt for Petty Treason and High Treason and soldiers shot for military offences.

In 1571, the famous "Triple Tree" was set up at Tyburn to replace the previous smaller gallows and was, at least once, used for the hanging of 24 prisoners simultaneously. This was on the 23rd of June 1649, when 23 men and one woman were executed for burglary and robbery, having been conveyed there in 8 carts. Another mass execution took place on March 18th, 1740 when the famous pickpocket and thief, Jenny Diver, was hanged before a huge crowd, together with 20 other criminals.

After 1752, murderers had to be hanged within two days of their sentence unless this fell on a Sunday, in which case they were executed on the Monday. It was normal for judges to sentence them on a Friday to allow them this extra day. Additionally, they had to be kept in irons and fed only on bread and water.

The execution process began at around 7 o'clock in the morning when the condemned men and women would be led in fetters (handcuffs and leg-irons) into the Press Yard in Newgate. Here the blacksmith would remove the fetters and the Yeoman of the Halter would tie the criminals' hands in front of them with a cord around the body and elbows (so that they were able to pray when they reached Tyburn) and place the rope (or halter, as it was known) round their necks, coiling the free end round their bodies.

Stops were made at two public houses along the way, probably the Bowl Inn at St Giles and the Mason's Arms in Seymour Place, where the condemned would be allowed an alcoholic drink. Once they left the second pub, it was a short journey to the gallows.

On arrival at Tyburn around noon, some two to three hours after they had left Newgate, the prisoners were greeted by a large crowd, of anything up to 100,000 people, who had come to watch the spectacle. Amongst the crowd were hawkers selling food and souvenirs and people selling copies of broadsides purporting to contain the prisoners' last dying speeches and confessions of the condemned (bear in mind this was before they had been executed!) It has often been said that pickpockets were operating among the crowd, despite the fact that it was frequently some of their number who were being hanged.

The clothes of the executed belonged to the hangman and, therefore, some prisoners only wore their cheapest, oldest clothes whilst others dressed to look their best for their final performance.

In the case of notorious criminals, the hangman would sell their rope by the inch - hence the expression “money for old rope.”

In Chapter 12 during a conversation between Mr. Haredale and Sir Chester we have this:

But the thing is, Haredale--for I'll be very frank, as I told you I would at first--independently of any dislike that you and I might have to being related to each other, and independently of the religious differences between us--and damn it, that's important--I couldn't afford a match of this description. Ned and I couldn't do it. It's impossible.'

In Chapter 15 Mr. Chester says this to his son Edward:

I wish you'd look upon it pleasantly. In a religious point of view alone, how could you ever think of uniting yourself to a Catholic, unless she was amazingly rich? You ought to be so very Protestant, coming of such a Protestant family as you do.

Kim wrote: "Here you go:
Tyburn’s gallows was the main place of execution for London and Middlesex until 1783. It was also the place where women were burnt for Petty Treason and High Treason and soldiers shot ..."

Kim

Once again you shed light into the corners of the story and give us great insight.

How many hangmen do you think set up an old curiosity shop for their newly obtained wares?

Kim wrote: "Here you go:
Tyburn’s gallows was the main place of execution for London and Middlesex until 1783. It was also the place where women were burnt for Petty Treason and High Treason and soldiers shot ..."

Thank you, Kim, for this information on a most ... elevating subject.

Tristram wrote: "Thank you, Kim, for this information on a most ... elevating subject. "

She certainly roped you into that topic.

I can see you two are at it again. :-}

Yes, Kim, I know our grumpiness can be a nooseance sometimes ;-)

Tristram wrote: "Yes, Kim, I know our grumpiness can be a nooseance sometimes ;-)"

That was awful. :]

Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Yes, Kim, I know our grumpiness can be a nooseance sometimes ;-)"

That was awful. :]"

I'm in accord with you on that.

Everyman wrote: "Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Yes, Kim, I know our grumpiness can be a nooseance sometimes ;-)"

That was awful. :]"

I'm in accord with you on that."

So was that. :}

Oh my goodness. I'm still lagging behind. I'm up to chapter 41. I haven't been reading as much as I normally would be hopefully in a week or so I will have caught up!

Anyway, I just have one thing to say - legs! Oh my. We just can't get past Sim's legs. LOL! I love it.

I agree with you all about Dennis - what a character. I love his characterisation given his occupation. Clearly, he loves his job. LOL.

I think there's more to Hugh than Dickens is letting on at the moment. You guys probably know already! I'll find out soon enough.

Kate wrote: "I agree with you all about Dennis - what a character. I love his characterisation given his occupation. Clearly, he loves his job. LOL.

I think there's more to Hugh than Dickens is letting on a..."

Good to see you back and commenting. BR heats up soon as the riots finally occur. Happy reading!

At this point I have realized that Mary Rudge is not as good a mom as she sounds on paper. She baby's barnaby. She still sees him as a toddler with toddler limitations. She keeps him at a ole level , making excuses for him and proclaiming his limitations instead of challenging him. He is capable of so much more and craves it. He is not only interested in the gold and blind man but he is self motivating , growing on infinity , thriving on the light of opportunity. Mrs R won't let him grow up.

Whether they mean to or not all the parents/ hairdo and on this story are lousy parents. Be it negligence or indulgence.

Please try to fish around my typos. Sorry.

Kim, I just read a book that ( if you have not read) would love, I think. JOHN. HALIFAX, GENTLEMAN. By Dinah Craik. A wonderful family saga. The flavor of little women.

Christine wrote: "Please try to fish around my typos. Sorry.

Kim, I just read a book that ( if you have not read) would love, I think. JOHN. HALIFAX, GENTLEMAN. By Dinah Craik. A wonderful family saga. The flavor ..."

I'm going to look it up now, until I saw you read it I never heard of the book or the author. Thanks. :-)

Me either , Kim. I picked this one up at a thrift shop because it has a great little picture on the cover and written on the inside cover in old brown ink is " to sister Ida. From Annie x Herbert Christmas, 1906.

I had to give it a shot. And it is REALLY good. It is over looked I think. It is right on course with the likes of The mill on the floss or Agnes grey. A portrait of life in the times.

Hmmm, I don't actually know about Mrs. Rudge's being a bad, or rather stifling mother. After all, she lets Barnaby roam the country as much as he likes, whereas all the other people, including the young ones, in that country village seem to be confined to working in order to make a living.

Knowing that he is easily impressed, but probably also easily duped, she might not want him to think too much of gold and develop a yearning towards it. How else could she be sure that his naive inclination to possess himself of gold might not lead him, unwittingly, into crime?

Tristram wrote: "Hmmm, I don't actually know about Mrs. Rudge's being a bad, or rather stifling mother. "

I agree with you, partly for reasons that come later than this section so can't be discussed here.

I still stand on my view. Even with upcoming events. Which reinforce my opinion. She treats him like a baby. He is growing up in ways he can. Her love for him won't let her prepare him more. Guide him in his compromised but inevitable adulthood. He wants to find gold. She should set his mind to something else. Hardcore. Not concentrate on dissuading him. On the flip side, she is quite a woman. I'd like to read a book focusing on her. Very string and resourceful for her day!!

Really appreciate all your research, Kim. Wonderful; it adds such depth to the story. I'm also enjoying the puns, Tristram and Everyman. The more cringeworthy the better!!! I almost choked myself laughing.

Hilary

You are reading up a storm. Kim is our resident researcher and the Tristram/Everyman comments always keep me on my toes.

You may be up to speed by the end of our group read of BR.

Happy reading!

Thanks Peter! Your encouragement goes a long way!!!!

Hilary wrote: "Really appreciate all your research, Kim. Wonderful; it adds such depth to the story. I'm also enjoying the puns, Tristram and Everyman. The more cringeworthy the better!!! I almost choked myse..."

You're welcome Hilary. Ah, but you really shouldn't encourage those two grumps (that would be Tristram and Everyman) too much, oh just thinking about that "nooseance and being in accord stuff" is making me shake my head at them again. :-} Oh, and just wait until you get to Nicholas Nickleby and see how "grumpy" they can get. Poor, poor Nick. :-} You are quite the speed reader by the way, Peter's right about that!

Kim wrote: "Hilary wrote: "Really appreciate all your research, Kim. Wonderful; it adds such depth to the story. I'm also enjoying the puns, Tristram and Everyman. The more cringeworthy the better!!! I alm..."

Kim

Thanks for letting Hilary know I'm not a grump ;>)

Peter wrote: "Kim

Thanks for letting Hilary know I'm not a grump ;>)"

No problem. I always know who the grumpy people are. :-}

Kim wrote: "Peter wrote: "Kim

Thanks for letting Hilary know I'm not a grump ;>)"

No problem. I always know who the grumpy people are. :-}"

Oh, I forgot you are also invited to come see the decorations, you can pick up Everyman on the way. :-}